My Recovery tier list.

[Judge Judy]

Samus can gimp ROB. :D

Not if R.O.B. recovers very high.

 

[Kitamerby]

Not if R.O.B. recovers very high.

Then he gets smacked with a fully charged shot and has to recover all over again! Yay!

 

[_clinton]

Your descriptions for Sheik, Lucario, Yoshi, and Wario are just plain wrong.

What is wrong about them?

Wario-so please tell me why he is worse off then Kirby?
Yoshi-his 2nd jump is the best one in the game…and his up B gives him great horizontal distance for the 1st use gives him 5 blocks of range overall…it ties with Mario’s 2nd jump…
Shiek-Her rope does have an issue with making the ledge…and her Up B is overall better then Zelda’s…horizontal distance they just about tie…vertical distance…they just tie overall…
Lucario-were talking in more detail about Lucario…so I’ll talk down here…

Wall clinging is nowhere NEAR as situational as anything Ness can do with PKT. Lucario's curve is also not situational. It's sheer maneuverability and ability to completely avoid obstacles is something that many characters would kill to have.

Curving makes him much harder to hit and allows him to either go for the stage or the wall if the ledge is taken.

You don’t seem to understand…I’m comparing how Ness can move during his 2nd jump and how he can aim PK thunder to how Lucario can aim his Extreme Speed…and again…Ness can just use an air dodge with his 2nd jump to avoid dangerous obstacles like walls…PK Thunder can climb them…his 2nd jump can move around them and air dodge them…

Both moves can be easily edgehogged. What does it matter whether a move has a hitbox or not if you have invincibility frames, anyways? Lucario isn't missing out anything.

Well Ness’ invincibility frames start off from the moment Thunder hits him…during that time…nothing can stop him (although his distance gets cut from that)

Lucario has more horizontal resistance than vertical, and with proper DI it shouldn't be a problem. Also, vertical recovery issues are nullified by wall cling.

Unless you don’t have a wall…or the wall is further away then the ledge…

Lucario's ledgesnap is not "good." It's good compared to everyone else. It's a **** good ledgesnap.

Oh please…most of the characters in the game have some good auto ledgesnaps with their recovery moves…

Only two of them are not in point, and you've forgotten curving, as well as Lucario's floatiness.

How am I forgetting about Lucario’s floatiness? Did you not read how I was talking about his good horizontal recovery?
Oh and notice how I said his movement in the EX speed was like Ness’?

So? What the hell is he going to need a stall for? Nobody starts edgehogging Ness until they hear "PEEKAY THUNDER" first.

Stalling throws off the time for one thing…oh and like I said…you can move the magnet forward…and the people that start to edgehog Ness as they hear PK Thunder…yeah fun fact…you can do that a lot with every character…

I don't believe it's as good as Lucario's, though.

please…how’s about you get data before you say that?

Actually, I was talking about the head of PKT, not Ness, though that would screw him over, too..

Not really…oh and please note that Ness’ thunder is much faster then Lucas’ as well ok…

A 30% kill move that takes 5 years to start up and is instant death for him if he tries it due to him being unable to recover AT ALL no matter how little he's knocked back after trying.

5 years to start up? I can do it in less then a second…and you are aware again…that Ness and Lucario have the same range in their moves right?

It's useful, but saying that Ness's "wall climbing" is anything nearly as good as Lucario's wall cling is foolhardy.

Again…I wasn’t saying that…not my fault if you don’t get that…

You can't rope snake out of the magnet, and Lucario gets 12 blocks if done at a more vertical angle instead of horizontal.

Were talking about horizontal for the snake range…and I said recovery move…not recovery…

Rainbow Cruise's walls when the stage becomes a giant platform near the end can be clung to as a last resort. I've been saved at least 3 times in tournament matches from those walls.

Still situational…notice that?

So yeah, you can only cling to save yourself on 13 stages. However, when there are only 18 stages that you'll ever be able to reasonably die off the bottom boundary due to gimping, and 2 of those stages you can't cling two are the ones YOU'LL be counterpicking, I don't think that Lucario's wall cling is anything near as useless as you make it out to be.

Yeah…please look at my list of what Lucario has again for recovery…

1.) 2nd jump and stats for it
2.) Extreme Speed and the stats for it
3.) Wall Cling
4.) Double Team
5.) Dair
6.) Ledgesnap…which I should really put in with the recovery moves…

Please remember I said 2 of them were overall worthless…one was not always open for use…and one was open for a good % of the cast…

I’m not calling Lucario’s wall cling useless…

There're still better recoveries than Lucario. Lucas's completely trumps Lucario's for example. I just think it's better than Ness's, at least. <<

Good for you...please recal that I said Lucario's is better then Ness'

Just not by that much

PS: Besides Ness's long DJ he has nothing good about his recovery.

Meh...besides the fact that and PSI magnet is all he really needs most of the time it doesn't matter...

I'm a bit tired...so night...

 

[Judge Judy]

Then he gets smacked with a fully charged shot and has to recover all over again! Yay!

Explain, not to say that you're wrong I just don't understand what you mean.

Meh...besides the fact that and PSI magnet is all he really needs most of the time it doesn't matter...

If Ness loses his SJ he's a sitting duck, length-wise his DJ will let him recover but he's still fairly easy to edgeguard. At least Psi Magnet protects against some projectiles... Ness's recovery isn't bad but you give his DJ too much credit; it's long and you can it into an Fair but Ness is still farily easy to intecept. Unlike Yoshi, Ness can be hit out of his long DJ. Ness has too few options against edgeguarders.

 

[Kitamerby]

Explain, not to say that you're wrong I just don't understand what you mean.

ROB can't airdodge during his recovery. That basically means that he's a huge sitting duck to certain projectiles with KO ability, namely the Charge Shot and Aura Sphere.

Not like one matchup makes him any worse. He probably still does have the second best overall recovery.

 

[Alus]

Yeah…please look at my list of what Lucario has again for recovery…

1.) 2nd jump and stats for it
2.) Extreme Speed and the stats for it
3.) Wall Cling
4.) Double Team
5.) Dair
6.) Ledgesnap…which I should really put in with the recovery moves…

ahem* i think both of those are usless for recovery...

DT because you can end up under the stage

Dair because it holds you in place making you a easy target... the move is normally used to
assist with gimping whenever you dont have time for a b-air


i havent read anything else on your post yet i will when i get the time

 

[CT Chia]

this list is so inaccurate. completely remake it lol

 

[Matador]

this list is so inaccurate. completely remake it lol

I concur. Everyone's being arbitrarily placed without any sort of criteria to meet. EVERYTHING must be taken into account if a list like this is to be taken seriously.

 

[Shy Guy 86]

Ness in C rank? what a joke, just reflect, get hit by PK Thunder and hes dead, Falco is C rank, Marth's Up-B doesn't get him far enough(B takes forever to charge, Side B just keeps him in the air)

 

[Matador]

Ness in C rank? what a joke, just reflect, get hit by PK Thunder and hes dead, Falco is C rank, Marth's Up-B doesn't get him far enough(B takes forever to charge, Side B just keeps him in the air)

Exactly what I mean. There's more to take into account than just this.

 

[Browny]

I think its alright. If I made a list on how often ive seen characters get KO'd because they couldnt make it back to the stage or were edgehogged properly from every brawl match ive played + watched, and turned it upside down I think it would look a lot like this, except maybe pit and sonic a bit higher. thats probably it.

 

[jaap]

Thats what i mean, i get crap reply's about my tier list without any reason. and stupid jokes without any proof that there is somthing wrong about it. Its not like u guys decide my tier list, im only posting my tier list and ofc, id like if u give ur opinion about it. But like i said right under the list, give reasons and dont post crap. rly, i posted my tier list more times, and each time i get posts like: 'this tier list sux', 'is this thrown out of nothing?''Where is it based on'? does it needs 2 get based on anything?

if ur whining about tier list, come with proofs or atleast reasons, else shut up.

 

[Gindler]

All I know is that out off all the characters in the game, the only one I haven't edgeguarded is Sonic and the jiggz. I will try everyone but those two, invincible during spring is ridiculous, spin whatever cancelling jump throwing me off with it's weird trajectory. and jiggz, well the pound just has too much priority.

 

[_clinton]

If Ness loses his SJ he's a sitting duck, length-wise his DJ will let him recover but he's still fairly easy to edgeguard. At least Psi Magnet protects against some projectiles... Ness's recovery isn't bad but you give his DJ too much credit; it's long and you can it into an Fair but Ness is still farily easy to intecept. Unlike Yoshi, Ness can be hit out of his long DJ. Ness has too few options against edgeguarders.

A. While Ness' PKT is nowhere near as good as his 2nd jump, it has more range overall (not by much they just about tie in horizontal range...but his thunder does go higher then his 2nd jump...around 1.5x as much actually vertically)...
B. Ness' isn't worthless like Zelda or Falco and Wolf are after using his recovery move...he can still actually move from the get go...in fact I think his horizontal range goes up when he is in freefall (I'm going to test it today) the landing on PK Thunder can also be lagless just to let you know...
C. Learn how to air dodge when using Ness' 2nd jump...it isn't easy to intecept at all...and PSI magnet does more then just protect him from projectiles...it adds range and can actually change his location horizontally...oh and PK Fire is also nice for coming down...not just Fair...hell if used right...you could pillar spike some sucker...

ahem* i think both of those are usless for recovery...

Again...another person who doesn't read my 1st post/all of the post...

 

[ShadowLink84]

Then he gets smacked with a fully charged shot and has to recover all over again! Yay!

unless he realizes there is an R button.

 

[DanGR]

unless he realizes there is an R button.

I thought Rob couldn't airdodge while he's using his recovery, but can only attack.

I could be wrong.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I do not understand the point of this question. How does it have to do with the distance either character can recover from?!

its an exaggeration about how much further Sonic can go than G&W.

G&W's dair has IASA frames. It is fairly hard to punish, especially on platform stages where it hits through the platforms.

Spotdodge and grab him. You'll avoid the pushback of the move. If he wants to Dair a platform its not hard to avoid the attack and Uair him.
His Dair is quick but its not a safe move to use above your opponent.

The trajectory is important, yes. However you know that it goes toward you, so the ending place is fairly predictable. Does his side b -> second jump cover the entire stage of FD when activated aerially? Honestly I did not know this.

From a fullhop it covers all of FD.
From an SH it will cover only 66% of it.

Their recoveries seem to have similar speeds to me. Sonic's does have a greater distance.

I believe G&W's activates a few frames slower than Sonic's.
unsure since I dn't have frame data to support this hypothesis.

When did I say lag? I meant priority. Also you're right, I didn't know it was lagless, but I assumed it had low lag.

i thought you had intended priority when you mentioned it.
my error.
Priority wise its not as strong due to hurtbox/hitbox ratio.

Your up b argument is wrong. G&W's parachute allows him to fall VERY slowly, so he covers a great horizontal distance while barely moving down vertically. You simply cannot say that Sonic's Up B covers the same horizontal distance because he has better aerial movement - the problem with this is that he falls MUCH faster than G&W when G&W has the parachute out, so he loses a lot of vertical distance.

From the edge of FD.
G&W's ^B touches the second arrow on the other side of the stage.
Sonic's ^B touches roughly the same distance ( was unsure since G&w slides a bit)

With Sonic's homing attack, side B and double jump he covers much more distance.

Yep, but if you see a projectile coming, it's just a good a defense as Sonic's side b.

Why not just ^B and sweetspot the ledge or drop then ^B ?

Haha, no. While you are correct, Sonic's hitboxes aren't disjointed, whereas G&W's, and MK's (since you used him in your example) are. Thus if Sonic's aerial hits where their attack hits, only Sonic gets dealt knockback because they are safely out of range.

Dude thats because of hurtbox/hitbox ratio. its still the same thing. Whoever hits the hurtbox first will win.
Also Sonic's Bair is a bit weird, it some disjointed properties around the foot its a bit difficult to space.

It isn't? I was under the impression that you could be grabbed out of your up b and then fall to your death, because you can't sweetspot the edge. I know it isn't nearly as bad as Snake's for this (since it's a lot harder to grab Sonic out of it), but it definitely leaves you more vulnerable.

the same can be said for G&W except he can get edgehogged which would be bad as well.
Sonic has a greater amount of distance to fall before he is forced to go for the ledge.
As a result its just as hard to grab Sonic out of his ^B because he qwill never be in a position for the opponent to grab him out of it.

I mean if they are near him. But if they aren't, then he's safe because he sweetspots the ledge, whereas Sonic goes over it and can be hit...

Sonic can toss uout his Fair, Bair or uair all of which have good priority and good speed allowing him to defend himself.

He is more flexible, but he is less safe.

you have yet to show why he is less safe though without it being the cause of a large error on the Sonic users part.

G&W is just as vulnerable as Sonic is.

Yes and no. Yes because you can tell how G&W is going to recover. No because you still won't do anything about it, and he'll recover. With Sonic, even if you don't know how he is going to recover, you can at least try to hit him out of it, and have a greater success rate of hitting him out than G&W.

This is largely opinion based. Again in what way is Sonic more vulnerable? He is just as susceptible to being landcamped as G&W after an ^B.
however for G&W its double jump then ^B or die.
For Sonic its side B double jump homing attack then if needed ^b.

Either way G&W is ot superior to Sonic in terms of recovering ability.






Sonic can go a further distance. He is less safe while recovering, though.



Yes and no. He is harder to gimp because he can get back faster, but ultimately he still HAS TO GO TO THE STAGE. As long as your opponent waits there, they can try to punish you, because you won't be sweetspotting the edge, so once you get close to the stage, you're in danger of being hit back offstage, and by certain characters, gimped.

Judge Judy summed up my point pretty well. Sonic recovers further, but G&W recovers safer.

Honestly I would rather have the safer recovery, because as long as I DI correctly, I won't have to recover the amount of distance that Sonic is capable of recovering.

If you want to determine which recovery is better in terms of speed and distance, yeah, Sonic's is definitely up there and obviously beats G&W. Hell it seems like he can recover nearly as far as MK. But you still have to get back to the stage, and this is where Sonic becomes vulnerable.[/QUOTE]

I thought Rob couldn't airdodge while he's using his recovery, but can only attack.

I could be wrong.

I thought it was that he could. Let me go check.

Yeah you're right. Can't dodge out of the ^B
He can attack and then airdodge.

 

[_clinton]

Yeah you're right. Can't dodge out of the ^B
He can attack and then airdodge.

Yeah...that is why I actually think JP is better then him...but whatever...

 

[Kitamerby]

ahem* i think both of those are usless for recovery...

DT because you can end up under the stage

Dair because it holds you in place making you a easy target... the move is normally used to
assist with gimping whenever you dont have time for a b-air


i havent read anything else on your post yet i will when i get the time

You need to stop talking right now. Kay?

Also, there's no way in hell that ROB's going to have enough time to both attack AND be able to airdodge the charge shot. He's going to get whacked by that thing if he tries to Up B no matter what he does.

 

[Darth JoBak]

zelda lower a tad and wolf higher, wolf's recovery is difficult, not bad, there is a difference

 

[ApplesOfDoom]

I think Peach should be a tiny bit higher...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Everybody thinks, their main character should be a "tiny bit higher"...

 

[Judge Judy]

A. While Ness' PKT is nowhere near as good as his 2nd jump, it has more range overall (not by much they just about tie in horizontal range...but his thunder does go higher then his 2nd jump...around 1.5x as much actually vertically)...
B. Ness' isn't worthless like Zelda or Falco and Wolf are after using his recovery move...he can still actually move from the get go...in fact I think his horizontal range goes up when he is in freefall (I'm going to test it today) the landing on PK Thunder can also be lagless just to let you know...
C. Learn how to air dodge when using Ness' 2nd jump...it isn't easy to intecept at all...and PSI magnet does more then just protect him from projectiles...it adds range and can actually change his location horizontally...oh and PK Fire is also nice for coming down...not just Fair...hell if used right...you could pillar spike some sucker...

A. Ok.

B. Most people aren't going to let you use your Up B, they'll just hit you out of it or attempt to intercept the energy ball itself.

C. Air Dodging can be intercepted and it's predictable. Ness's Magnet pull is ok but it's still very easy to intecept. PK Fire is the only thing that I could really see working but even that isn't too difficult to avoid, plus PK Fire has a lot of ending lag.

 

[Judge Judy]

Everybody thinks, their main character should be a "tiny bit higher"...

Yah, but some people underrate some recoveries and overrate others; there's a lot of things people forget to look over, that's why we have these discussions.

Edit: Opps, double post.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I am still very disappointed for Sonic to be lower than Lucas and G&W. Bump him up.

 

[Chis]

Rank S
Metaknight
Rob
Jigglypuff

Rank A
Kirby
Wario
Game and Watch
Lucas ???
Sonic
Pikachu
Pit


Rank B
King DDD
Toon Link
Luigi
Fox
Diddy Kong
ZSS
Lucario
Samus

Rank C
Zelda
Snake
Ice Climbers
Princess Peach
Sheik
CharizardHigher
Marth
Ness
DK
Yoshi
Squirtle
Mario



Rank D
Falco
Captain Falcon
Wolf
Ike


Rank E
Bowser
Ivysaur
Olimar
Solo climber
Link You're kinding right?
Ganondorf

Rank S
Metaknight
Rob
Jigglypuff

Rank A
Kirby
Sonic
Wario
Lucas
Game and Watch
Pikachu
Pit


Rank B
King DDD
Toon Link
Luigi
Fox
Diddy Kong
ZSS
Lucario
Samus

Rank C
Zelda
Snake
Ice Climbers
Princess Peach
Charizard
Marth
DK
Captain Falcon



Rank D
Sheik
Ness
Yoshi
Mario
Squirtle
Falco
Wolf
Ike


Rank E
Bowser
Link
Ivysaur
Olimar
Ganondorf
Solo climber


Fix'd.

 

[Kitamerby]

rank S
Metaknight
Rob
Jigglypuff

Rank A
Kirby
Sonic
Wario
Lucas
Game And Watch
Pikachu
Pit


Rank B
King Ddd
Toon Link
Luigi
Fox
Diddy Kong
Zss
Lucario
Samus

Rank C
Zelda
Snake
Ice Climbers
Princess Peach
Charizard
Marth
Dk
Captain Falcon



Rank D
Sheik
Ness
Yoshi
Mario
Squirtle
Falco
Wolf
Ike


Rank E
Bowser
Link
Ivysaur
Olimar
Ganondorf
Solo Climber


Fix'd.

Link's way too high. Put him below Ganondorf, and Olimar above Ivysaur (what the hell, people? O.o)

 

[Chis]

Oh god. You just made it even worse. Why not just put Solo Popo up there with ROB, eh?

Who ever think's Solo popo>Link instantly loses all credibility.

 

[MysticKenji]

Olimar should be above Ivysaur.

From page 1.

 

[Kitamerby]

Who ever think's Solo popo>Link instantly loses all credibility.

Who ever thinks that I was serious about that recommendation should be banned from the internet.

 

[Undrdog]

Uh... Pit being that low? Do you people use Wings of Icarus to recover or something? Three mid-air jumps and a glide. Plus Wing Renewal comes in handy on occasion. Not to mention that when it's appropriate you can use Wings of Icarus to recovery.

Seriously is the Up-B people are using against Pit? Because in the hands of a moron yes, his Up-B sucks. But come on, any decent player will never get his out.

Pit is easily number one, two or three. So long as he's up there I won't argue too much. His recovery easily gains the most vertical distance and time in the air. Not to mention his recovery has the most mobility.


Oh and Samus? WAY too low. Screw Attack is almost unstoppable and you can choose the cancel it to grab the edge or go above it. Bombs allow for both mobility and distance while recovering. And the Zair can reach insanely low. Not to mention her Dair can keep would-be edge gimpers at bay.

 

[Amide]

Exactly. What annoys me most though is that Sonic is two places above Pit >__>.

 

[Browny]

even if pit can make it back from every position, Sonic can do the same, travel under every stage extremely quikly, and most importantly has invincibility on his upb and a dair as a momentum-changer to get by edgeguarders. When pit is recovering he can still be shot repeatedly quite easily by another pit, shooting a sonic is a lot more difficult

 

[chandy]

pit shud be higher. Link and Ganon shud be above solo climber who can't recover at all and wario shud be lower

 

[Dark Sonic]

I really do believe that Sonic's recovery is on par with Pit's, if not just because Sonic's recovery gets back to the stage faster. Distancewise, technicall Pit has glide and therefore has infinite distance (as shown by the MK goes around hyrule temple vid), but Sonic has more than enough distance to recover from any point on the map. Saftey wise, Sonic's manuverability and flexible recovery simply lets him avoid edgeguarders altogether, but Pit can be a pain in the *** to edgeguard as well. As for gimping, hitting Pit out of his up B honestly should only happen if the Pit player has to use his up B, and only when the character edgeguarding him can safely drop low enough to hit him in the first place (if he can even keep up. Pit's up B actually moves pretty fast).

 

[TVTMaster]

Whoa. DDD deserves way better. SA, ungrabable, powerful ^B, four air jumps, and basically can't get edgeguarded. Plus WTF on Olimar vs Ivysaur. Even if someone doesn't edgeguard, Olimar at max length has a pitifully short tether, and most of the time he won't have all his Pikmin. Ivysaur I believe has the game's longest tether and and Razor Leaf snipe, Dair stall, and then go for the tether when they drop.

 

[PKNintendo]

Solo climber is a joke. He should be bottom of bottom. I put he/she there as a joke,

 

[Miller]

Solo climber is a joke. He should be bottom of bottom. I put he/she there as a joke,

In all honesty, Solo Climbers recovery isn't that bad, people just suck at it.

When you get hit away, you neutral B, and that gives you abit of vertical distance, then you just float abit towards the stage, still with your second jump then you do whatever you need to from there.

 

[Snail]

Whoa. DDD deserves way better. SA, ungrabable, powerful ^B, four air jumps, and basically can't get edgeguarded. Plus WTF on Olimar vs Ivysaur. Even if someone doesn't edgeguard, Olimar at max length has a pitifully short tether, and most of the time he won't have all his Pikmin. Ivysaur I believe has the game's longest tether and and Razor Leaf snipe, Dair stall, and then go for the tether when they drop.

Have you ever even played Olimar? Olimar's tether is long as hell. Also it stage spikes and has a little boost upon using it so you won't just hang in the air and fall to your dead even if you're half an inch away from the edge... Olimar is also a lot floatier than Ivysaur. UpB isn't always necessary.

Also D3's upB is so easy to punish it's not even funny. Run under, shield it, smash. Yeah, can't get edgeguarded eh? His recovery isn't bad, but distance isn't everything.

 

[Chis]

Who ever thinks that I was serious about that recommendation should be banned from the internet.

I know.

Solo climber is a joke. He should be bottom of bottom. I put he/she there as a joke,

I wonder who has the better recovery, Olimar with no Pikmins or Solo Ice climbers?

Have you ever even played Olimar? Olimar's tether is long as hell. Also it stage spikes and has a little boost upon using it so you won't just hang in the air and fall to your dead even if you're half an inch away from the edge... Olimar is also a lot floatier than Ivysaur. UpB isn't always necessary.

Olimar's tether recovery is dependent on the number of Pikmin with him. Remeber that he throws them and they also get killed. Now what's the chances of him having a full set of Pikmin? Also he has to throw some at who ever is trying to edge guard/hog him. Further reducing the length of the tether.

>