Levitas
the moon
I'd argue Pika's recovery to be better than sonic's, even if its range is a bit more limited.
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My Recovery tier list.
- Thread starter PKNintendo
- Start date
Chis
Finally a legend
How is it better? Explainations please.
Snail
Smash Lord
Most of the time you don't even need the tether anyway. And at higher percentages we won't be throwing more than one or two pikmin away (and you can still whistle them back). Ivysaur is screwed if he can't make it with his second jump no matter how close to the ledge he may be.I know.
I wonder who has the better recovery, Olimar with no Pikmins or Solo Ice climbers?
Olimar's tether recovery is dependent on the number of Pikmin with him. Remeber that he throws them and they also get killed. Now what's the chances of him having a full set of Pikmin? Also he has to throw some at who ever is trying to edge guard/hog him. Further reducing the length of the tether.
>
He also falls a lot faster and has no way of defending against edgeguarders except airdodges. Honestly, Olimar should be making it back far more often than Ivysaur <_<
As for throwing pikmin at edgehoggers, we don't do that unless a purple one is up next. The general strategy for recovering with Olimar is drifting back, second jumping as near to the ledge as possible, remove any edgehoggers with uair's lasting hitbox and then thether. If you're hit up high you can just pull yourself over the ledge with the little hop from the upB :/
Also, no-pikmin Olimar's upB boost is about as good as his tether with three or four pikmin. The hop grows bigger when you don't have pikmin, so if you get hit off the edge with less than three pikmin you just throw them away and upB xD
You should always have at least 5 with you though, at KO %s.
MysticKenji
Smash Master
1. You can be grabbed from SA.
2. DDD is edgeguardable.
3. He has crap air movement and fall speed.
4. UpB only hits below him and has no range.
Levitas
the moon
Pikachu has an unparalleled number of options when he's somewhat close to the stage due to the nature of his Up b. He can go to the edge or go to 2-3 parts of the stage without lag due to QACing.
He can usually get in range of this position using his side b, which is only OK as far as a recovery option. From above, pika covers himself with jolts.
That's nice and all, but you have to predict the directions for the QA. Nobody reacts to it and gets a hit unless the pikachu cannot either get the edge or QAC, which is rare.
So speed and versatility are through the roof, and while not exceptional, range is good
He can usually get in range of this position using his side b, which is only OK as far as a recovery option. From above, pika covers himself with jolts.
That's nice and all, but you have to predict the directions for the QA. Nobody reacts to it and gets a hit unless the pikachu cannot either get the edge or QAC, which is rare.
So speed and versatility are through the roof, and while not exceptional, range is good
Chis
Finally a legend
Unparalleled? How? Because he can choose where to aim his Up B? Wow, unparalleled! Meta-Knight who has several recovery moves which have high priority pales in comparison!
1) Side B is sluggish, requires charging, is laggy and doesn't have that much priority.
2) Jolts? You must mean Down B, which is Thunder... which is laggy and often a guaranteed suicide if done off stage. Who the hell would try to edgeguard Pikachu while above him in such a way you cannot reach him but he has enough time to Thunder you without you having the time to, say, airdodge it, anyway?!
Maybe if you hacked Brawl...
Chis
Finally a legend
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Maybe. I might consider that.
Nolimar's pretty good, his ledge grab range triples when pikminless.
Solo climber's also pretty good...
...when you have a turbo contoller....
@Yuna, Pikachu's neutral B is called thunder jolt
unless of course, that was sarcasm, but you analyzed it so...
Solo climber's also pretty good...
...when you have a turbo contoller....
@Yuna, Pikachu's neutral B is called thunder jolt
unless of course, that was sarcasm, but you analyzed it so...
Snail
Smash Lord
Levitas said Pikachu covers himself from above with thunder jolts. Yuna means to say that jolts don't cover the space above pikachu, so he assumes Levitas means Thunder, not jolts. I'd guess Levitas means Pikachu covers the space below him, from his position above, but whatever. <_<
Chis
Finally a legend
My version of the list... >_>
Rank S
Metaknight
Rob
Jigglypuff
Rank A
Kirby
Sonic
Wario
Game and Watch
Pit
Lucas
Pikachu
Rank B
King DDD
Luigi
Lucario
ZSS
Fox
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Samus
Rank C
Zelda
Snake
Ice Climbers
Princess Peach
Charizard
Sheik
Marth
Captain Falcon
DK
Mario
Rank D
Ness
Yoshi
Squirtle
Falco
Wolf
Ike
Rank E
Bowser
Link
Ivysaur
Olimar
Ganondorf
Solo climber
Nolimar
Glad you're considering it PKNintendo. Fixed it slighly again.
Opinons anyone?
Stop flamming and more explaining!
Rank S
Metaknight
Rob
Jigglypuff
Rank A
Kirby
Sonic
Wario
Game and Watch
Pit
Lucas
Pikachu
Rank B
King DDD
Luigi
Lucario
ZSS
Fox
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Samus
Rank C
Zelda
Snake
Ice Climbers
Princess Peach
Charizard
Sheik
Marth
Captain Falcon
DK
Mario
Rank D
Ness
Yoshi
Squirtle
Falco
Wolf
Ike
Rank E
Bowser
Link
Ivysaur
Olimar
Ganondorf
Solo climber
Nolimar
Glad you're considering it PKNintendo. Fixed it slighly again.
Opinons anyone?
Stop flamming and more explaining!
I only use obvious sarcasm as subtle such might confuse the less intelligent.
And this:
I know what Thunder Jolt is. Either Levitas is mistaken about the uses of Thunder or he expressed himself badly. And he's wrong, anyway. It's not like Thunder Jolt is so great. It's slowish and laggyish. And who would go at Pikachu from below without immediately trying to nail him, giving him the time to Thunder Jolt them, anyway?
And since when does Thunder Jolt stun you for great periods of time? Thunder Jolt also has a set trajectory, so it can't even hit if they're directly below you. Thunder Jolt, not so super-great for anti-edgeguarding (smart people, that is).
Mmac
Smash Lord
Why is Yoshi so low? - _-
Frown
poekmon
Yoshi can go under Final Destination.
EDIT: G&W can't.
EDIT 2: Yoshi has juggernaut frames.
EDIT 3: G&W hasn't.
EDIT: G&W can't.
EDIT 2: Yoshi has juggernaut frames.
EDIT 3: G&W hasn't.
OIC, the truth finally comes out, Yoshi has juggernaut frames. That immediately makes him bad, people.
Juggernaut frames require only attacks that inflict 7% of damage or above (and there are plenty of these) to knock people out of them. So, Yoshis of the world, I welcome your 2nd Jump. I'll introduce it to any number of my aerials (depending on who I'm playing as).
Bye bye now.
Mr.Victory07
Smash Lord
My version
Rank S
Metaknight
Rob
Jigglypuff
Rank A
Kirby
Sonic
Pit
Luigi
King DDD
Game and Watch
Pikachu
Rank B
Snake
Yoshi
Wario
Lucas
ZSS
Toon Link
Fox
Samus
Lucario
Rank C
Princess Peach
Diddy Kong
DK
Charizard
Marth
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Rank D
Zelda
Falco
Sheik
Ness
Squirtle
Mario
Ike
Rank E
Ganondorf
Bowser
Link
Olimar
Solo climber
Ivysaur
Nolimar
Rate, comment, flame, discuss.
Rank S
Metaknight
Rob
Jigglypuff
Rank A
Kirby
Sonic
Pit
Luigi
King DDD
Game and Watch
Pikachu
Rank B
Snake
Yoshi
Wario
Lucas
ZSS
Toon Link
Fox
Samus
Lucario
Rank C
Princess Peach
Diddy Kong
DK
Charizard
Marth
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Rank D
Zelda
Falco
Sheik
Ness
Squirtle
Mario
Ike
Rank E
Ganondorf
Bowser
Link
Olimar
Solo climber
Ivysaur
Nolimar
Rate, comment, flame, discuss.
Chis
Finally a legend
0p Ftf
Rate this one instead V
Don't do that.
Rate this one instead V
Rank S
Metaknight
Rob
Jigglypuff
Rank A
Kirby
Sonic
Wario
Game and Watch
Pit
Lucas
Pikachu
Rank B
King DDD
Luigi
Lucario
ZSS
Fox
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Samus
Rank C
Zelda
Snake
Ice Climbers
Princess Peach
Charizard
Sheik
Marth
Captain Falcon
DK
Mario
Rank D
Ness
Yoshi
Squirtle
Falco
Wolf
Ike
Rank E
Bowser
Link
Ivysaur
Olimar
Ganondorf
Solo climber
Nolimar
Opinons anyone?
Mmac
Smash Lord
This is stupid logic to make Yoshi's recovery better, and wasn't at all what I meant when I said Yoshi was too low. Not only that, but you made a horrible comparison (Game and Watch has invincibility frames in his UpB!) I'm tired of Yoshi mains relying on DJA to make it back because it doesn't really work. Especially since you can Airdodge at the start of his Double Jump and it will end at the same time his DJA will end. There you go, it's practically invincible
Also, Yuma, you are completely wrong about how Yoshi's Double Jump Armour works. Yoshi's Double Jump Armour is KNOCKBACK based, not damage based. Snake's Cypher Armour is Damage Based.
Yoshi's juggernaut armour is WAAAAY different than Snake's.
Fine, say hello to my (Zelda's) Fair, Bair and Dair (all sweetspotted) or, heck, Uair if you're above me (for some reason). Either way, you're going to die! Juggernaut armor is tons worse than Super Armor.
And no, "practically" invincible doesn't help if I have an attack with a hitbox that stays out for a long time or just time my attacks.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Ironically, those are all hard to hit with. Also, "Good" Yoshi's don't rely on DJA in the first place.
First of all, I was just pointing out that the Armour is completely pointless because the Aridodge lasts the same amount as the armour. Second of all, we already went on this Road. I already explained that:
- Yoshi is going to wait until he's close to airdodge
- Those with long lasting attacks don't have the range and/or the speed to Follow Yoshi with
- Those with the Range and can barley keep up with Yoshi can't gimp him in the first place because s/he is hitting him toward the stage
Mr.Victory07
Smash Lord
lol, its still different, just i used your coloring
Mr.Victory07
Smash Lord
Idk, G&W is gimped if he loses his jump, but i might change that
EDIT: Woops, double post
Yes, because obviously I'm going to whiff them every time (or just not sweetspot).
I thought I'd already sufficiently proven that Yoshis are not prescient. It's a mixup. And if Yoshi loses it, he dies, pretty much guaranteed.
brinboy789
Smash Champion
zeldas recovery has great distance but after you use it...the DI is almost not even there. its SOOOO hard just to move with DI from one place ot another after using zeldas up-b...
Mmac
Smash Lord
How is it a Mix up? Not to mention you are making it out to be a more common problem when it's not that at all.
Plus even if he gets hit out of his double jump, Unless it's a Spike or a low horizontal, he is going to make it back. It's never a guaranteed kill.
Chis
Finally a legend
PKNintendo I'm starting to wonder if you're even reading the posts...
Rank S
Metaknight
Rob
Jigglypuff
Rank A
Kirby
Sonic
Wario
Game and Watch
Pit
Pikachu
Lucas
Rank B
King DDD
Luigi
Lucario
ZSS
Toon Link
Fox
Diddy Kong
Samus
Rank C
Snake
Zelda
Ice Climbers
Princess Peach
Charizard
Sheik
Marth
Captain Falcon
DK
Mario
Rank D
Yoshi
Ness
Squirtle
Falco
Wolf
Ike
Rank E
Bowser
Link
Ivysaur
Olimar
Ganondorf
Solo climber
Nolimar
Quite a few changes again, what do YOU think?
Stop flamming and more explaining!
Yoshi DI's towards the stage, Yoshi sees opponent coming for him, does he:
A) DJ airdodge?
B) DJ?
C) Do nothing and die?
Falco is jumping towards Yoshi, does he:
A) Expect the DJA and not throw out an aerial and wait instead of the DJA and chase it with Dair or whatever?
B) Just hit him when he simply DJs?
C) Hit him for not doing anything?
It's a mixup of expecting when to aerial Yoshi and when to bait the DJA and wait it out or to simply throw out a quick attack which will end before Yoshi's DJA ends and whack him after he stops being invincible since it's not a +/0 frame advantage and even airdodges have startup frames.
Yes, it's so easy without his 2nd jump to help him! No, he's not easy to edgeguard by the Top Tiers and even the Highs at all when his 2nd jump is gone! I also used the term "pretty". Also, semi-spikes.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Ness and Yoshi under Mario is nasty. Yoshi's air movement>all (it's the best in the game)PKNintendo I'm starting to wonder if you're even reading the posts...
Rank S
Metaknight
Rob
Jigglypuff
Rank A
Kirby
Sonic
Wario
Game and Watch
Pit
Pikachu
Lucas
Rank B
King DDD
Luigi
Lucario
ZSS
Toon Link
Fox
Diddy Kong
Samus
Rank C
Snake
Zelda
Ice Climbers
Princess Peach
Charizard
Sheik
Marth
Captain Falcon
DK
Mario
Rank D
Yoshi
Ness
Squirtle
Falco
Wolf
Ike
Rank E
Bowser
Link
Ivysaur
Olimar
Ganondorf
Solo climber
Nolimar
Quite a few changes again, what do YOU think?
Ness, Yoshi's and Squirtle have better jumps than Mario. air movement too.
I originally thought that Ness deserved D rank, but his jumps+air movement are awesome.
Are B list and C list are pretty similar. I feel that TLink's recovery is quite impressive. (air-sexy-movement) and his Up B doesn't suck in terms of distance.
CF recovery is too plan, and it's destination (similar to Mario's) has a predictable distance.
Thanks for the consideration, I might change the list up. (testing the game now)
Still wondering why Sonic is so high... There are so many stages where his clinging to the bottom of the stage doesn't work. And on the ones that do a character like Pit can easily go down there, do any number of things that will bounce Sonic off the stage to his death. I bring this up mainly due to the only argument I've seen about Pit is that another Pit can nail him out of his Up-B while under the stage. (Against another Pit though Pit should be gliding beneath the stage.
Ah, and unlike Metaknight or any other character, Pit can go under one side of the stage, back to the other, then then back again before deciding which ledge he wants to grab on to. And most characters can't stop it. And the ones that can are still hard pressed to nail a good Pit.
Anyway I'll concede to your opinions, but third on the chart at the lowest.
Ah, and unlike Metaknight or any other character, Pit can go under one side of the stage, back to the other, then then back again before deciding which ledge he wants to grab on to. And most characters can't stop it. And the ones that can are still hard pressed to nail a good Pit.
Anyway I'll concede to your opinions, but third on the chart at the lowest.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Why would you pick B or C? >_>
Except that Falco has one of the worst Horizontal airspeeds in the game and won't be able to chase him properly. If Yoshi airdodges properly, he'll be way on opposite side of Falco when the Airdodge finishes
You going to post better examples if you are to support this though. Plus airdodging only has what? a 2 Frame Startup?
Obvious Sarcasm is Obvious. He isn't like Pit at all where he gets hit out of his UpB. He has great airspeed, He can stall air movement and add horizontal distance (Not to mention protects him), and he can still airdodge intercepts.
Chis
Finally a legend
Do you mind changing the list to my colour format. It make's it easier to see the boundries.
So you'll always DJA? Then why would I not always jump out, wait for it and chase you? So you'll time it differently and we're back at the fact that it's a mixup.
Bair. Or pick a character, any character who can chase Yoshi's DJA with an aerial. There are plenty.
Lag from DJA + 2 or so frames = Frames where you can be hit. And if you are, you're very badly off. If you hit Zelda out of her 2nd jump, well, Up B... into Up B... into Up B... into Up B. You either kill me outright or edgehog me, there's no other way to KO me unless I screw up a DI. Yoshi, whack him.
No, because their Up Bs/2nd jumps are different.
Hello, my name is Pit, say hello to any number of my multi-hit and long-lasting aerials.