Mid-to-Low Tier Counterpicks for High Tier Characters

[Deleted member]

the zelda vs peach MU can be describes as:

turnips > zelda > peach without turnips

zelda vs ICs is even. a good platform game and strong moves goes a long way to negating ICs ground control game.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I honestly always thought Zelda vs. Peach was a winning match up for Zelda (although %-wise I don't know). What's your opinion on it Crimson?

uhhhh

So Peach has this projectile. It's called a turnip and Zelda can do nothing about it, aside from changing into Sheik.

Nothing.

And sometimes people exaggerate about MUs...but ask any Zelda what they think about Peach's turnips.

 

[ElloEddy]

Ylink is a the best

 

[hungrybox]

Falcon ****s on ness


Conversely, Ness is quite viable against Falco, Ganon, ICs, and sometimes Marth and sheik.

 

[KrIsP!]

lol Hax vs. Mofo says differently...alhough there was a lot of gimmick in that game. Ness holding his own was still hype as ****, especially the PK mindgames.

 

[standardtoaster]

hbox i want to see some of your ness at apex

 

[KrazyKnux]

uhhhh

So Peach has this projectile. It's called a turnip and Zelda can do nothing about it, aside from changing into Sheik.

Nothing.

And sometimes people exaggerate about MUs...but ask any Zelda what they think about Peach's turnips.

Ah, I never really thought turnips would be that big of a problem for her haha. I've only ever seen a few Zelda vs. Peach sets, and I just assumed Zelda could hold her own quite well because she tended to win or keep the sets close. Then again, I only know of like 2 Zelda mains

 

[Nintendude]

This thread should be renamed "viable high tier matchups for mid/low tiers" because as others have said already, there are no low tiers that really counter a high tier. Maybe YL has a slight edge on Puff or Pika has a slight edge on Falcon but those aren't counters.

Zelda is trash vs any ICs player with a brain.

 

[Pengie]

Guys Zelda does amazingly against Peach.

I think Zelda has some crazy down B related tech in that matchup that hasn't been fully explored yet.

 

[ajp_anton]

I think Zelda has some crazy down B related tech in that matchup that hasn't been fully explored yet.

Yes, I'm sure Sheik vs Peach deserves to be mentioned for its unexploredness.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Conversely, Ness is quite viable against ICs

How even

crouch-cancel down smash
uair after a shielded fair
out-ranged by everything
easily sniped out of his double jump

plz don't say PK fire

 

[Xyzz]

Guys Zelda does amazingly against Peach.

I think Zelda has some crazy down B related tech in that matchup that hasn't been fully explored yet.

You have three Peach players (and we john around just like everybody else) telling you that Peach handily wins... do you really need the Lake or Cosmo telling you as well? :D

Sure, it's not like all of us played the match up on a daily basis, but it's not really rocket science to figure it out. Peach usually does really well against characters that are slower than her, because her turnips are one of the best projectiles this game has to offer and she can get a lot of them against these opponents.
Think about it that way: Is 'the kick' really comparable to Ganon's 'THE PUNCH'? And we can deal with that easily as well. And while Ganon is pretty limited in his options, Zelda is even more one-dimensional, making it even easier to play around that strength...

 

[cannedbread]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uXfS7PBkYs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

more hot_yl_jiggs_camping.flv

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You have three Peach players (and we john around just like everybody else) telling you that Peach handily wins... do you really need the Lake or Cosmo telling you as well? :D

Sure, it's not like all of us played the match up on a daily basis, but it's not really rocket science to figure it out. Peach usually does really well against characters that are slower than her, because her turnips are one of the best projectiles this game has to offer and she can get a lot of them against these opponents.
Think about it that way: Is 'the kick' really comparable to Ganon's 'THE PUNCH'? And we can deal with that easily as well. And while Ganon is pretty limited in his options, Zelda is even more one-dimensional, making it even easier to play around that strength...

You're going to feel really stupid if you re-read his post.

 

[Xyzz]

You're going to feel really stupid if you re-read his post.

Indee... wait is that Denzel Washington riding a flying tortoise?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

:O! Where? Wait a second, I don't see Denz-Hey where'd you go?

 

[Landry]

lolZelda...

 

[Wake]

Lol. Yeah pretty sure Pengie wasn't serious, but I do play the Peach/Zelda MU on a weekly basis. It's bad.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Any low tier vs a ******** Falcon has some chance of working

Link Enfant vs Peach & Purin is reasonable

G&W vs Puff (maybe?)

Roy on FOD and FD vs Falcon and Fox I hear is bearable but I don't buy it

Kirby vs Sheik in 2004 if you're Isai. Also works vs Ice's Marth.

Zelda vs Peach isn't a terrible idea on paper but Peach wins the MU if she knows what to do and there's little Zelda can do to interact with it since it's mostly, "You can't beat this projectile."

Link vs Peach seems okay on paper but then suddenly Pink Shinobi. Link isn't terrible vs Puff either but might as well use Link Enfant.

Pikachu vs Falcon.

Various characters vs Marth. Notables include both Marios, Luigi, Pikachu (65-35!), and Samus. Mercifully, Samus still sucks.

I think that's it. It's hard to counter the spacies or Sheik because of their design and only a few low tiers have the attacks that control space in a way relevant to countering Puff's air game.

 

[The Business]

i heard bowser is really good vs sheik

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Roy v Falcon is legitimately winnable as long as the Falcon throws himself into your zoning

Once he stops that though its rough

 

[Hax]

Pikachu is probably Falcon's worst matchup after the top 4

it's probably 55-45 Pikachu AND Pika gets a game on FoD cause Falcon has to ban FD

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Yeah but this thread is about mid and low tiers Hax

 

[Skler]

I think Ness vs Falcon was mentioned. Doesn't Falcon not have an answer to the fair at all? Ness can also combo him better than he can combo pretty much anybody else.

I haven't seen a Ness since I started playing, though.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Dash-Dance > Uair beats Fair...

 

[knightpraetor]

jiggs - y. link, IC, luigi
marth - pikachu, ganon
peach - y. link, fox
fox - none
falco - none
sheik - none
falcon - don't know

 

[Xyzz]

jiggs - y. link, IC, luigi
marth - pikachu, ganon
peach - y. link, fox
fox - none
falco - none
sheik - none
falcon - don't know

Fox is best low tier

 

[DerfMidWest]

I've seen TheLake play against VaNz...
Zelda does not counter peach.
But <3 TheLake for trying ^^

 

[Knut]

lol @ zelda counter picking any char.

 

[JKJ]

Thanks guys for all the input!
Anybody B tier or below counts as a low tier in terms of this thread, and I do not specifically mean a serious counterpick, just a matchup that the low tier can play pretty well.

 

[oliman]

I interpreted this as low tiers that do unreasonably well against high tiers considering their placing.

Fox- Roy
Falco- Zelda
Sheik- none, really. SoPo, maybe?
Puff- Zelda, Young Link, Link, G&W, Bowser, pretty much everyone lol
Marth- pika apparently, ganon, yoshi?
Peach- Zelda, Y. Link, Link, Roy lol
Falcon- everyone

 

[Sacredtwin11]

I interpreted this as low tiers that do unreasonably well against high tiers considering their placing.

Fox- Roy
Falco- Zelda
Sheik- none, really. SoPo, maybe?
Puff- Zelda, Young Link, Link, G&W, Bowser, pretty much everyone lol
Marth- pika apparently, ganon, yoshi?
Peach- Zelda, Y. Link, Link, Roy lol
Falcon- everyone

Both ICs>SoPo all the time. And ICs aren't even low tier, unless you're saying that SoPo by itself is low tier, but that doesn't really count.

 

[Kimimaru]

Ness doesn't do well against Jigglypuff at all; it's his worst matchup by far. He often dies after getting offstage, but Jigglypuff's aerial mobility allows it to go out and WoP him/interrupt his PK Thunder and reduce Ness' chances of making it back to 0.

Yoshi does well against Marth because of insane edgeguarding options, gimps, and pressure from below. Marth completely loses his low % gimp game against Yoshi and has an even harder time killing him than other characters. I tend to think of the matchup as even, but if/when Yoshi's metagame develops further I can see it being in Yoshi's favor.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ness shouldn't recover against any character, Peach is more likely his worst MU because he can't handle trading at all.