Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

[Max Ketchum]

Snake's up tilt is 6 frames and his grab is 8. Either way, what you said is right.

Snake can kill from grabs earlier than 140 anyway, provided he gets a proper read from dthrow.

And yeah, I don't find myself getting killed by up tilt a majority of the time, but when you're trying to avoid that you leave yourself open for other moves.

 

[Staco]

You also cant deal much damage to the snake without getting into the risk of beeing utilted.

 

[Palpi]

Ally gets gimped the least of all top snakes because when he uses cypher he goes away from the stage and blows himself up so he doesn't get grabbed or spiked or for MK nair'd or shuttle looped.

The extra damage the snake does to himself is obviously a better alternative to losing a stock, especially considering snake dies at a million percent.

 

[Toronto Joe]

combine ally di with snakes weight and yeah...

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

the best thing to do vs snake is wait for an opening to get him in the air
like when he is pulling a nade you can nado or d-tilt safely
learn to instant throw (really really helps you approach)
use dash attack (when far away) d-tilt f-tilt and d-smash (closer) to punish his landing lag. nado is really good for this too
tornado his head in his lag even when he is pulling a nade (just dont let him toss it into you) if hes just holding it, it wont explode

 

[smasher01]

What I like to do to snake sometimes but is a little risky is I camp at a distance and watch how he throws
his grenades than when i find hes pattern on throwing them I close in distance slowly but it still kinda looks like im camping than rush in for the grab when he throws his grenade. If the snake knows what your are doing he can just drop his grenade and grab you first so dont to it too much thats also why you have to make it look like you are camping alittle so he throws the grenades.

PS. Snakes dodge is so broken if he can mix it up lol

 

[Staco]

the best thing to do vs snake is wait for an opening to get him in the air
like when he is pulling a nade you can nado or d-tilt safely
learn to instant throw (really really helps you approach)
use dash attack (when far away) d-tilt f-tilt and d-smash (closer) to punish his landing lag. nado is really good for this too
tornado his head in his lag even when he is pulling a nade (just dont let him toss it into you) if hes just holding it, it wont explode

use shieldgrab to punish his landing lag.
if he does an aerial its still save and if you know the right timing you can grab him, even if he hits your shield with an aerial.
reverse grab also works in some situations.

d-tilt, f-tilt and d-smash really arent good punishers for landing lag.
d-smash is just good at higher percentages, if the snake attacks your shield, so that you got enough time to release it + dsmash.
the f-tilt can also be DIed. (thats why its not used that often in MK Dittos and DSmash instead)

uair is better for juggling than tornado because he will get hit into a position, where you can hit him again. when you time it right granades also wont explode.
use tornado only, if all your jumps are used or if he is too far away to follow him without tornado (since tornado is faster than your airspeed or landing and then running to his new position speed)
the tornado will bring him in a situation, where he can easily get back to the ground or DI it and punish you for using it.
the uair will bring him in a much worse situation and is much safer.

 

[Toronto Joe]

any advice vs luigi? ****ing hate weegee

 

[OverLade]

any advice vs luigi? ****ing hate weegee

I play with Polmex23 on a pretty regular basis. If you're getting ***** you're probably being too liberal with your approaches.

Camp/Outspace him. If you're using Fair, fastfall it. Once he's in the air your shield beats all of his options and you can punish him from it (he moves far to slowly in the air). This matchup is pretty terrible for weegee.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

For God's sake

at 0%, do NOT get Utilted x.x

And be cautious if you're on a platform that Luigi can SHUair you on.

 

[Master Raven]

Space with Fair and tilts, Luigi cannot get inside MK very easily at all.
Tornado if he's spamming fireballs or aerials.
DON'T try to edgeguard Luigi if he's charging his SideB, chances are he could misfire and if you're right in front of him then you're ****ed. Wait for it to finish before approaching.
Dair gimp him if he tries to do a cyclone recovery, or invinci-Nair* him.

*Grab the ledge and right after you do so, do a dropped Nair and if you're close enough, you'll go right through any attack.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

nado the side b, misfire or no you win

use shieldgrab to punish his landing lag.
if he does an aerial its still save and if you know the right timing you can grab him, even if he hits your shield with an aerial.
reverse grab also works in some situations.

d-tilt, f-tilt and d-smash really arent good punishers for landing lag.
d-smash is just good at higher percentages, if the snake attacks your shield, so that you got enough time to release it + dsmash.
the f-tilt can also be DIed. (thats why its not used that often in MK Dittos and DSmash instead)

uair is better for juggling than tornado because he will get hit into a position, where you can hit him again. when you time it right granades also wont explode.
use tornado only, if all your jumps are used or if he is too far away to follow him without tornado (since tornado is faster than your airspeed or landing and then running to his new position speed)
the tornado will bring him in a situation, where he can easily get back to the ground or DI it and punish you for using it.
the uair will bring him in a much worse situation and is much safer.

I am talking about the 2 frame landing lag everyone gets every time they touch the ground, so that makes anything that sets up well or pops snake up a great lag punisher
if you have a hitbox out and they airdodge into the ground they get hit every time. thats what i mean.
F-tilt does get di'd but if you know it will hit (ie landing lag) you can do it quickly and they wont di out.
actually up-air is more useful for baiting then juggling. use up-air to bait a airdodge or punish an aerial. if they airdodge nair SL or dair
nado is amazing use it alot (use it whenever they have lag or a low shield) snake cant di out if you space it right and even if he does just no-lag land it while retreating
no snake aerial is safe ever you can punish them always
this is good stuff and it works

 

[Staco]

If they are above you, you juggle them (uair) and if they dodge you punish it with Dair/Nair afterwards.
Stop using words which you dont really understand. ("is better for baiting than juggling", lolol, you actually want them to stay above you! its better, if the uair hits them)

nado the side b, misfire or no you win

If you are above them there are much better options than tornado.
You actually dont want Luigi to get back to the stage that easy just because you wanted to make some tornado damage. (and he can DI the tornado and punish you for it)
Well timed Dairs or Up B also do the job and hit him back offstage.
If you see him doing missfire (and getting on the stage) you can still tornado him since he got a lot of lag.
Just dont be in the wrong position and you will never get hit by misfire.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

if weegee side-bs are you are directly in front of him nado is your best option because if you SL it you can trade and die if he misfires
of course you dair him or something if your in the position to do so. master raven specifically said if your in front of him and that is the best option for that situation.
also like i said earlier if you space nado they cant punish you for DI'ing out especially if you no lag land it

DONT tell me im using words i dont understand. I KNOW what i am talking about
if you can ever hit snake with a up-air with him doing nothing you should have hit him with nair instead. upair does 5 damage. nair does 19. HUGE difference. The purpose of spamming up-air is to bait an airdodge or hit him out of an aerial (like if he tries to d-air or b-air you as up-air is much less likely to trade)
you want him to airdodge when he is till above you because you can SL him which kills easiest and puts him in a REALLY bad situation, so spamming up-air can bait this or something you can react to

also nair ends in 31 frames (hitbox out on 3)
snake's airdodge ends in 40 frames (with his invinciblilty starting at 4 and ending at 31)
if you try to nair him and he dodges you still get free d-air (hitbox out on 4)
just make sure to use it only when it will or can hit. its not spammable like up-air is

 

[Staco]

if weegee side-bs are you are directly in front of him nado is your best option because if you SL it you can trade and die if he misfires
of course you dair him or something if your in the position to do so. master raven specifically said if your in front of him and that is the best option for that situation.
also like i said earlier if you space nado they cant punish you for DI'ing out especially if you no lag land it

DONT tell me im using words i dont understand. I KNOW what i am talking about
if you can ever hit snake with a up-air with him doing nothing you should have hit him with nair instead. upair does 5 damage. nair does 19. HUGE difference. The purpose of spamming up-air is to bait an airdodge or hit him out of an aerial (like if he tries to d-air or b-air you as up-air is much less likely to trade)
you want him to airdodge when he is till above you because you can SL him which kills easiest and puts him in a REALLY bad situation, so spamming up-air can bait this or something you can react to

also nair ends in 31 frames (hitbox out on 3)
snake's airdodge ends in 40 frames (with his invinciblilty starting at 4 and ending at 31)
if you try to nair him and he dodges you still get free d-air (hitbox out on 4)
just make sure to use it only when it will or can hit. its not spammable like up-air is

But you will make less damage with the nado, if they DI out and if they are good at it they will punish you for it (I know that Marth can Up B you out of Nado (when they get hit by it) and MK can Nair you out of it, Olimar can Fair you out, dunno if Luigi can do something like that).

You could also just shield it and then punish it. I dunno, but maybe he got enough lag for a fsmash? Else Dsmash or grab will hit for sure and puts them into a much worse position than tornado.

Sadly human reactions arent 0,0000001 seconds.
A well spaced UAir covers all of his options. If you Nair him single hit he will get a good chance to get back to the floor. He also got a better airspeed than you, which makes it harder to hit him with Nair, espeacally double hit Nair.
You also cant double hit Nair him, else he will just do a bair before you doing the nair and you get hit by it. Single Hit Nair will also just trade most of the time.
A human Snake wont just fall into you. (seriously, only CPUs are that stupid)
And you dont spam UAir, you do well timed jumps + 1 Uair. If he gets hit, repeat, if he dodges, Nair or Dair.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

if you are directly in front of weegee you really dont have very many options other than nado., save a quick jump and dair. but you dont have to time nado so for some people it may be easier

you can spam up-air as long as he isnt near you because its so fast, and i have great success against GOOD snakes using nair as opposed to up-air, you just have to have fast reactions or predict them. If you get directly under them then their increased airspeed means nothing. you can still hit them regardless. and if you weak nair them out of their airdodge you can still dair them if you were fast-falling along with them. Both up-air and nair are great to use but they are both used in different situations. I just try to set up n-air more often than up-air because it has a much greater reward for landing the hit. Either way works fine i jsut try to go for maximun effiency.
plus you dont need inhuman reactions, you just jump and nair +fastfall. If it hits, great, if not. buffer a dair. Theres lots of things you can do to snake when hes in the air

 

[smasher01]

Uair (i just Dair if the snake gets past me), nado, and perfectly timed grab(on landing) work for me. some snakes are gay cuz they roll or dodge right when they hit the ground and if you dont time your grab perfectly
you let him go free lol

 

[Palpi]

Snake will likely be reversal so you are not there when you get to the ground, upon chasing them after that, they will have a nade shield dropped and time to tilt you.

Nairing aidodges is legit, that is why a lot of snakes don't even air-dodge. Was talking to...i think Bigm, and hes like yeah, anti doesnt air dodge ever. (as snake)

 

[smasher01]

Thats why you go up there and uair and make it look like snake is pooping lol.
they will changed it up sooner or later and try to air dodge to the ground thats when you grab or nado.

why would he not air dodge its just limits your options even more in the air as snake lol

 

[Max Ketchum]

Regarding the 2-frame landing lag:

Snake has 0 frames of landing lag if he pulls a grenade in the air. He can B-reversal grenade and hold shield upon landing to make himself MUCH safer.

 

[smasher01]

remember if your under him it dosent mater cuz your Uair will **** B-reversal.
but if you dont expect it and he does it and gets past you hes free.

 

[Max Ketchum]

We're talking about while MK is on the ground.

Also, uair does not **** B-reversal, Snake can force the uair to detonate the grenade, providing him with a damage trade that benefits him.

 

[etecoon]

if you hit snake from below the grenade doesn't detonate, the hurtbox to trigger the explosion never goes beneath his waist

it's not an even trade anyway, he takes more damage and it puts him in a worse position on the follow through, trade damage is better for snake than none at all but unless he has a lead he shouldn't be kamikazeing you

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

no but you can still time a grab in what would have been a 2 frame landing lag and he will still get grabbed since there is vunerablitiy in spotdedges and rolls. or you could dash attack his feet as hes landing and you will not detonate the nade.

 

[Max Ketchum]

I did not know about the explosion hitbox. Good to know.

And it's not even, it's beneficial for Snake. 5 damage for uair + 13 for a fresh grenade? 18 vs. 13 on Snake and MK, factoring in the weight and kill percent difference, makes it a win for Snake.

 

[Palpi]

Doom is stylin all over this thread.

 

[smasher01]

We're talking about while MK is on the ground.

Also, uair does not **** B-reversal, Snake can force the uair to detonate the grenade, providing him with a damage trade that benefits him.

it does not detonate it just drops and looks like snake is pooping lol

 

[Max Ketchum]

Yes, somebody already said that. <_<

 

[smasher01]

yeah but no one said it looked like snake was pooping lol

 

[Max Ketchum]

...-_-

I'm quite glad that they didn't.

 

[etecoon]

yeah I may have brought up that proper spacing will prevent the explosion but I worded it poorly, lol I'd sig that if I used signatures

 

[Max Ketchum]

Yeah etecoon, I got what you were saying.

 

[Jupz]

Advice in the toon link matchup? I'm guessing PS the ****, punish SH aerials with UpB OOS/Ftilt, Nado when he doesn't have a bomb out works well, gimp if possible? Also how can we punish Zair?

 

[DMG]

Actually Snake suffers from landing lag just like everyone else. The difference is that he looks like he recovers ASAP compared to other characters.

Have Snake pull a grenade and land with it and do something other than shield. You will notice he has the same lag as everyone else. He has this lag when he lands with a grenade and shields.


Also if you want, you can go frame by frame with Snake and another character. Have Snake pull a grenade in the air and then shield. Then get another character to fall to the ground and shield. They both have the same lag.

 

[OverLade]

Advice in the toon link matchup? I'm guessing PS the ****, punish SH aerials with UpB OOS/Ftilt, Nado when he doesn't have a bomb out works well, gimp if possible? Also how can we punish Zair?

I've played this matchup pretty extensively, but I couldn't explain what to do. You have to play selectively aggressive and know how to avoid projectiles. Tornado works well but it's situational as to when you can use it. This might help a little bit.

 

[DMG]

Yeah like the TL matchup is kinda hard to explain in words, but after seeing it played out you will know what both sides should aim for. The matchup is easy for MK if you have smart aggression.

Like a lot of TL's have a habit of double Jumping to get space and then pulling out a bomb whether they DJ after you hit them with a Fair or if they run on the ground and DJ to gain space, and if you read it you can just jump up and shuttle loop them before they can do anything. Dair offstage against them is really good obviously, even better than trying to Nair them. Nair is only really good offstage against them if like you absolutely need a hit, or at lower % if you hit them with both hits and then go for the Dair gimp.

On the ground, what you aim for is gaining space while also not comitting to anything before he does. Running at him and Fairing is not as good as running at him, getting within Ftilt distance, and waiting to see what you can do. If he SH's, you walk closer and PS whatever he throws at you. Honestly once you learn to walk more when closer to TL instead of dash, you will find the matchup a lot easier cause you can Shield a lot sooner while initiating a walk compared to a Dash (unless you are like, Shiek lmao.)

Upb OOS, Tornado at the right spots, aggressive but smart edgeguarding, and poking safely all lead to good things for you. It's just up to you to see those things for yourself and know when to apply them against your opponent.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

i 2-1ed quivo last saturday and i can still say i have no idea what to do against a good toon link.
i guess i just like tried to stay out from under him, and match him in the air when he tried to hit me.
I learned some things like when the bomb bounces off your shield they go to catch it just SL them or something. Nado is great when they are in the air (w/o bomb) and when recovering they avoid your d-air like the plague

 

[smasher01]

wtf do you do on wario? i know u-air his d-air works

 

[DMG]

You camp Wario. It's not hard, I can show you how to do it. Seriously MK can abuse a lot of things like Marth/Peach to give Wario a hard time.

 

[smasher01]

its just kind of annoying fighting him.
I can only grab release by the edge right?