Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

[Kaffei]

Thanks for writing that summary Zozefup. Really helped. =)

 

[Toronto Joe]

jesus christ,that oli was almost as bad as me

 

[OverLade]

God...mabye I shouldnt have left this thread alone.

Olimar discussion next week?

 

[PwnerBren7]

So whom are we discussing currently? I'm a bit confused. @.@

 

[smasher01]

We are now doing Olimar.
just start now.

 

[Max Ketchum]

I don't see why we would rediscuss Olimar when my summary on the front page is thorough and current.

 

[OverLade]

It is? Oh, nvm then...

 

[smasher01]

hum what character is really weird to fight and can throw us off O i know Ness I lost to a Ness called Dog Latin in winners lol Help

Winners' bracket

Defeated relpats eht
Defeated Felix
Lost to Dog Latin

Losers' bracket

Defeated Erk
Defeated EmoMoney
Defeated JamnT0ast
Defeated C!Z
Defeated Zeionut
Defeated Felix
Defeated Chip
Defeated Jem
Lost to Jem


Overall placing: 2/38

 

[Zozefup]

jesus christ,that oli was almost as bad as me

That olimar took 5th at a circuit with 70+ players. He was the undisputed "best olimar in the Midwest" until recently because Hilt has been placing well. But yeah, there are better oli's than him at the MK match up.

I don't see why we would rediscuss Olimar when my summary on the front page is thorough and current.

Because that is only one opinion on the match up. It doesn't give many specifics on how to approach olimar. And it doesn't describe the current olimar meta game as I know it.

Show me a video of a good MK drillrushing into olimar shields?

You say "Tornado is VERY punishable, it will just get piviot grabbed" and that Nado should "never be used as an approach."

But MK will NEVER get piviot grabbed if MK starts the tornado in the air (which is what you should do everytime you Nado anyway because the landing lag auto cancels). I haven't seen ANY videos of a good MK not using Nado as an approach at some point in the match.

But that could just be me. I don't like this thread very much. I don't feel like any of the match ups guides are very detailed or specific about much of anything.

 

[DanGR]

Who cares?

5th of 5,000 isn't good if he played the same way he did that match and still places 5th.

At one point the MK tornado'ed 5 TIMES IN A ROW and the Olimar shielded or ran away 5 TIMES IN A ROW.

Seriously...

 

[OverLade]

MK vs. Fox is close. TKD is on to something.

 

[DMG]

6/4 MK

That's all.

 

[OverLade]

I'm not convinced yet lol. MK can probably camp ones he gets ahead, but Fox seems fast enough to actually create legit metal mixups. I think 55-45 MKs favor might be possible.

 

[Zozefup]

MK vs. Fox is close. TKD is on to something.

Tero did the Fox summary? It's like 2 paragraphs? What are you talking about?

And Zeton is the best Fox I know of, and he says it's 65/35 MK

 

[DMG]

It's 6/4 people.

MK stuffs Fox's options wayyy too well.

Also:

SDI his Usmash into the ground, tech it, punish with Dsmash. This makes killing MK as Fox a LOT harder. Grab release to Usmash doesn't work if this is done, and Usmash OOS assuming MK has not touched the ground will not work either.

 

[smasher01]

It's 6/4 people.

MK stuffs Fox's options wayyy too well.

Also:

SDI his Usmash into the ground, tech it, punish with Dsmash. This makes killing MK as Fox a LOT harder. Grab release to Usmash doesn't work if this is done, and Usmash OOS assuming MK has not touched the ground will not work either.

wait wtf you can SDI the upsmash and not fly any where, just like on melee?

 

[DMG]

Yes, except different.

You cannot crouch cancel. You can be in the air, SDI down from an attack, and tech it.

 

[Nic64]

How practical is SDIing Foxes usmash like that? I've never tried it but it doesn't look like it should be something you could consistently do? If you could do that most of the time it would be pretty matchup breaking, none of Foxes other kill moves should be hitting you that often and that's also conveniently the one that gets you at like 90%.

 

[Max Ketchum]

It's 6/4 people.

MK stuffs Fox's options wayyy too well.

Also:

SDI his Usmash into the ground, tech it, punish with Dsmash. This makes killing MK as Fox a LOT harder. Grab release to Usmash doesn't work if this is done, and Usmash OOS assuming MK has not touched the ground will not work either.

Seriously, like...

There's no way you do this consistently.

 

[clowsui]

well DMG can consistently SDI Sheik tipper usmash into her side hits >_____> so he's in a class of his own for DI.

please get us a vid DMG

 

[Max Ketchum]

Ridiculous feats like that which require perfectly SDIing a move that's faster than human reaction time certainly isn't valid in matchup discussion. I'm sure there are plenty more moves that every character can do this kind of thing to. Does it ever happen? Nope.

 

[OverLade]

SDI Usmash into tech.

Vids or it didnt happen.

Also I dont know how good Zeton is so I can't say whether or not he's right. Anyway even if Its not necessarily close, It doesnt seem to me that MK is able to shut down Fox using a strategy like camping (his approaches are fast enough that you can't always just react, meaning you'll have to guess and play a mixup game, meaning if you guess wrong you lose). Its probably that if I played the right "gay" MK they would show me what makes the matchup so bad but ATM I dont feel like it's that bad at all.

 

[DMG]

Look guys it's not hard to SDI Usmash and Tech it lmao. Seriously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXOdwd-1EZc

Doing that is much harder than SDIing his Usmash lol.


If Fox grabs you and you are MK and he grab releases you at killing or near killing % or even grab releases you period, chances are "Hey, he's gonna Usmash". He can only land Usmash on you if he starts his run/dash at a certain threshold. Even if you are slow, you can look at that visual clue and start to SDI.

If you misspace Fair on his shield, don't fast fall it correctly, and you know he is going for the OOS Usmash, you take it and SDI down.

I can SDI Lucas's first jab so far that the second and 3rd jabs miss. This move is faster than Human reaction time clearly, so how do I do it? I could be an ******* and say that I use Magic and Pixie dust, or I can tell you that in Brawl it's fairly easy to know almost exactly when you have "screwed up" in your spacing, and you start to prepare for the worst before/right as you get punished.

Also, what's important isn't how fast the move is, but rather how long it lets you SDI it. If a move hits on frame 2, but has 30 available frames of SDI, my Grandma could SDI that at least a little. If a move hits on frame 40, but has only 1-3 frames for you to SDI, that is a harder thing to do.

 

[Kaffei]

Look guys it's not hard to SDI Usmash and Tech it lmao. Seriously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXOdwd-1EZc

Doing that is much harder than SDIing his Usmash lol.


If Fox grabs you and you are MK and he grab releases you at killing or near killing % or even grab releases you period, chances are "Hey, he's gonna Usmash". He can only land Usmash on you if he starts his run/dash at a certain threshold. Even if you are slow, you can look at that visual clue and start to SDI.

If you misspace Fair on his shield, don't fast fall it correctly, and you know he is going for the OOS Usmash, you take it and SDI down.

I can SDI Lucas's first jab so far that the second and 3rd jabs miss. This move is faster than Human reaction time clearly, so how do I do it? I could be an ******* and say that I use Magic and Pixie dust, or I can tell you that in Brawl it's fairly easy to know almost exactly when you have "screwed up" in your spacing, and you start to prepare for the worst before/right as you get punished.

Also, what's important isn't how fast the move is, but rather how long it lets you SDI it. If a move hits on frame 2, but has 30 available frames of SDI, my Grandma could SDI that at least a little. If a move hits on frame 40, but has only 1-3 frames for you to SDI, that is a harder thing to do.

So you just tap down as soon as you get hit by Usmash and then press tech?

 

[Toronto Joe]

if any of you want tips or practice on fox matchup just message me...i know both sides of the matchup stupid well

 

[OverLade]

I beat SBRKs MK with Fox in a friendly

Spoiler

on FD

I've never played a good fox with my MK, but I feel like the matchup could be obnoxious on certain stages if the fox player actually knew the matchup and had good mixup game.

 

[Toronto Joe]

i never knew you played fox,cool..maybe it was lack of matchup experience thats weird lol xD(i used to be able to take out all the top Mks in my area with Fox til i played em so much they learned the matchup,which is why i picked up mk for the ditto haha)

i firmly believe fox has an easier time killing MK,gimps aside your gonna have a really tough time landing a kill move on fox unless they make a stupid mistake and get punished OOS(mks options OOS save him from being at a disadvantage in this matchup)

foxs usmash kills at 86% on fd i believe,and if the fox player wants he can use usmash oos to punish your moves then sit back and refresh his usmash with lasers too boot

a frustrating but very winnable matchup

 

[Berserker.]

Eyy... Don't blame me for not knowing where to post this anyway.....

The Snakes are discussing the BRAND NEW doubles discussion with MK. Feel free (Actually, you better go here) to comment on what you think and tell what are the benefits and disadvantages (Actually they don't even have a disadvantage) of MK+Snake

Link to thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258360

 

[Zozefup]

If I'm full hop Fair camping Wario, and I see that he is going to land about the same time as me, right as I land... what are my options?

Like in this video at 2:15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSwhzajouu8

Or what does MK do when Wario is able to dodge into the ground very close to MK?

 

[DMG]

Full Hop Fair camping is very hard to pull off. SH Fair camping is much easier and works better.

 

[Zozefup]

Full Hop Fair camping is very hard to pull off. SH Fair camping is much easier and works better.

?? In my experience short hop Fair has been terrible. Can't Wario just run straight at you, shield your Fair, and punish? Or full hop over your Fair hitbox and Dair MK? Full hop is better because it takes Wario out of the air, and if Wairo gets under MK to try and punish it, MK can rising Dair him away.

I don't really remember why, I just know that I got punished a lot for SH Fairing at the wind.

 

[OverLade]

Actually DMG I think Zozefup is right about full hop fairs against Wario. When I approach him (and predict a jump, I do a full hop fair, and from there I get enough height safely dair camp until I see a safe position to fastfall to get under him.

If he doesnt jump he can powershield the fair and Uair you OOS (though this is probably hella difficult).

 

[Max Ketchum]

SHFF retreating fair vs. Wario probably isn't punishable.

Mix it in with full jump ones too, imo. MK can wall Wario reasonably well with a mixture of these two plus a little dtilt. Tornado/pivot grab when his dodges get predictable.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think Ankoku disproved the SDI teching Fox's Usmash.

edit:

To a pattern. Which I said was fine for 15-30 seconds at a time.

Anyway, last time I checked SDIing Fox's usmash into the ground for a groundtech was impossible. I hate you people. I will now go re-re-reverify this.

EDIT: Deconfirmed. First of all, it is physically impossible to SDI downward if you were hit while standing, so you need to be in the air when you get hit by Fox usmash to actually do any of the following. At 0%, the usmash doesn't send you into tumble, but you can SDI the usmash downward so hard that it literally sends you nowhere. At several %'s below around 25%, you can do the same thing but the usmash sends you into tumble so you can then immediately groundtech it. Past that %, no amount of SDI will reduce the knockback enough to keep you to the ground, and no amount of SDI will make you collide with the ground (this is a restriction of Brawl; you were allowed to SDI-collide against your momentum in Melee), and once the hitlag is over, you are sent upward, with nothing to tech against.

 

[Kaffei]

I think Ankoku disproved the SDI teching Fox's Usmash.

edit:

Ouch .

 

[DMG]

From the ground.

Where is MK located when he is grab released and Usmashed from Fox?

GOOD GAME!

In the air, you can SDI and "bury" your character into the ground. When they fly up, they will still be close enough to the ground for a tech.

 

[clowsui]

dmg is right
it's the concept behind veril's God DI for jigglypuff

just look it up, he sdi's a lucas usmash and techs

 

[InfiniteBlaze]

What are some good tips against Diddy?

I can't beat a somewhat competent diddy to save my life.

 

[Kaffei]

From the ground.

Where is MK located when he is grab released and Usmashed from Fox?

GOOD GAME!

In the air, you can SDI and "bury" your character into the ground. When they fly up, they will still be close enough to the ground for a tech.

Excuse me, did you actually bother reading anything that Ankoku said besides the first sentence?

Now, I am not denying that your SDI tactic isn't impossible, but at least show us a video of you SDIing fox's up smash, because I really want to do this.

 

[Paladin77]

MK has no bad matchups. Why are you even doing this? Hes godlike. All matchups are 90:10 in his favor. He has infinite Pros, and his 1 con is that he is light weight. An excuse I hear? MK doesnt have projectiles? Oh, i must have heard you wrong because metaknight is a projectile