Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

[Max Ketchum]

NEO is probably the best Sheik.

If she crouches, lower your tornado.

Thank you Professor Nic, for pointing out that shield > tornado. Sonic also can shield tornado and run super quick to punish it, doesn't make it any less effective on him. If you're letting Sheik shield when you use tornado, that implies that you're approaching with it. Why would you approach with tornado? Use it as a landing trap when she jumps, or when you call a roll/dodge. Nair/bair/dair through the center break tornado, but MK's horizontal mobility during tornado >>>>>>>>>> Sheik's in the air.

I don't think enough MKs abuse that horizontal mobility. They let their tornadoes get broken by things that shouldn't be doing so. I played Rookie in two tournament sets this week and he daired through my tornado all of ONE time, and never shined it. How? Once he got the lineup, I just slightly shifted so he couldn't hit the center. What's any different about doing this to Sheik? If anything, it's easier vs. Sheik because she doesn't have a stall move to help assure her lineup.

Sheik has good frame data, but not MK-good frame data. What frame is her jab, 2 or 3? If it's 2, then that's faster than every one of MK's moves, but...MK still has superior options such as walk backwards/roll/dodge (meh)/shield, and he shouldn't exactly mind eating a jab. If it's 3, MK's tilts are equally fast, and one dtilt with the potential to trip > one 2 damage jab. Her frame data isn't noticeably fast enough to make a difference up close, really, and the reward of MK's moves is greater. (also, ftilt, which is 5, ties dsmash and is slower than his tilts)

Also, if tornado vs. Sheik = risk of a grab, guess what? Chill with the tornadoes when you're around 80. Also keep in mind that GR up smash is significantly less of a threat if you strike and ban FD. Even though she can kill MK at a solid 85-90%, she's also quite light herself and MK shouldn't have any problems killing her. The only thing I see going for her in this matchup is surprise factor and the need for MK to be wisely conservative about tornado (despite it shutting her moveset out), but her tricks will only work for so long, and the MK will eventually catch on (plus, after a tornado or two to her shield, it'll be plenty degenerated...field day for MK).

 

[Nic64]

If you're letting Sheik shield when you use tornado, that implies that you're approaching with it. Why would you approach with tornado? Use it ... when you call a roll/dodge.

Right, don't use it when she's able to shield, just take a wild guess as to when it's safe. 65:35 MK.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Obviously the roll/dodge part is much less prevalent, which is why you'll notice it's listed after the primary use. Calling that stuff requires a certain degree of understanding of your opponent's habits and reactions, so if perhaps you realize that your opponent dodges when you roll behind them or rolls behind you when you poke their shield, you might want to start hitting the B button.

Also, fun fact: You don't risk a grab release if you end your tornado by the edge of the stage. You may find this helping you vs. Diddy as well.

 

[-Mars-]

Sheik has good frame data, but not MK-good frame data. What frame is her jab, 2 or 3? If it's 2, then that's faster than every one of MK's moves, but...MK still has superior options such as walk backwards/roll/dodge (meh)/shield, and he shouldn't exactly mind eating a jab. If it's 3, MK's tilts are equally fast, and one dtilt with the potential to trip > one 2 damage jab. Her frame data isn't noticeably fast enough to make a difference up close, really, and the reward of MK's moves is greater. (also, ftilt, which is 5, ties dsmash and is slower than his tilts)

Also, if tornado vs. Sheik = risk of a grab, guess what? Chill with the tornadoes when you're around 80. Also keep in mind that GR up smash is significantly less of a threat if you strike and ban FD. Even though she can kill MK at a solid 85-90%, she's also quite light herself and MK shouldn't have any problems killing her. The only thing I see going for her in this matchup is surprise factor and the need for MK to be wisely conservative about tornado (despite it shutting her moveset out), but her tricks will only work for so long, and the MK will eventually catch on (plus, after a tornado or two to her shield, it'll be plenty degenerated...field day for MK).

Jab- 2
Nair- 3
Dsmash- 4
Fair- 5
Bair- 5

Jabs can lead into grabs so I guess you don't mind getting grabbed? That frame data is pretty **** fast and you add her ground speed, DACUS, her dash shield which is incredibly fast, her second fastest jump in the game, and needles......she has a lot of tools in this matchup imo.

You probably want to chill with the tornados before 80 since GR does 30% on MK. I mean her grab release is also an insane damage racker in this matchup.

Sheiks shield does suck though, so if for some reason we don't punish your tornado with at least a dash attack it isn't pretty for us.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Not even Falco's jab to grab is legit. With a mixture of SDIing the jab and reacting quickly enough, you can escape it.

Why are nair/fair/bair being used in this discussion when we're clearly talking about the ground? Aerial frame data really doesn't matter all that much, especially considering the fact that once Sheik jumps she's begging to get up Bed or tornadoed (think of Marth, only without a nice big sword). If you really want to talk frames, add a nice 6 (correct me if I'm wrong) to those aerials for the jump, plus any more you might want to be delaying the hit with.

I forgot about dsmash being 4. Still gets somewhat noticeably outranged by tilts (unless Sheik has some bizarre hitboxes that I'm unaware of, but considering I play quite a good deal of her I would be surprised to hear this), as well as outsped (by a negligible one frame, though).

I understand that she's acceptable up close vs. MK, but MK's options are still more numerous and more rewarding.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Not even Falco's jab to grab is legit. With a mixture of SDIing the jab and reacting quickly enough, you can escape it.

The thing is, how are you gonna SDI a frame 2 move? I understand in some situations you'll know it's coming, but for the most part, at that range it seems like it happened because Sheik beat you to the punch, so there's no way to react with proper SDI. Personally, when I'm that close I'd generally look for a chance to do a retreating dair or something so I can take advantage of my superior range rather then challenge Shiek's jab.

I understand that she's acceptable up close vs. MK, but MK's options are still more numerous and more rewarding.

True.

 

[Nic64]

I understand that she's acceptable up close vs. MK, but MK's options are still more numerous and more rewarding.

This is true but to what degree? No one's arguing that Sheik wins, or even goes even, just that it's not a **** matchup.

especially considering the fact that once Sheik jumps she's begging to get up Bed or tornadoed (think of Marth, only without a nice big sword)

This can also be baited, more effective than Marth too because her short hop is a lot faster

IIRC you thought Marth was 4:6 vs MK didn't you? What things does Marth do IYO that make him better at this matchup than Sheik? Not saying that there aren't any or trying to start off on another subject, I'm just curious

 

[Max Ketchum]

Which is why I also included reacting quickly enough, lol. When Sheik winds up straight in your face, use one of your 203941 options to counter jab, her one that actually outspeeds your moveset.

Edit: Marth has superior guaranteed punishes (Dancing Blade doesn't lose all effectiveness at the edge whereas Sheik can't do more than a throw or an ftilt or two), is very good at keeping MK on his toes in the air (uair straight up beats dair), has superior options vs. tornado (pop out to counter, up B it, fsmash it, up smash it, up tilt it, etc.) that are much easier to use due to large disjoints. Sheik's hitboxes are all on her body, leaving her vulnerable to trades that she will probably lose. She also lacks an amazing OOS option (Dolphin Slash) to help avoid pressure.

Up B can be baited, but as soon as Sheik jumps, even if she air dodges, tornado is going to om nom nom her right up.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Which is why I also included reacting quickly enough, lol. When Sheik winds up straight in your face, use one of your 203941 options to counter jab, her one that actually outspeeds your moveset.

Ok, then you're agreeing with me then, jab spacing is what you'll be avoiding the entire match, and if you end up there with lag, that's when you start SDIing.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Yes, basically. Since it's her only option that is a guaranteed outspeed, also, you can pretty much know to expect it anyway.

 

[DMG]

Her first jab you cannot SDI a great distance. If you are caught near the tip/a bit further from the middle of the jab, you can SDI far enough to have the second jab miss, but besides that you can't go very far.

You can still avoid getting grabbed, just for her SDI won't solve much on her jab.

Falco though on the other hand...

 

[-Mars-]

I understand that she's acceptable up close vs. MK, but MK's options are still more numerous and more rewarding.

More numerous? Yes. More rewarding? Debateable.

MK can do things like dtilt trip>grab>getting Sheik offstage which is dangerous for her,

but at the same time Sheik can ftilt> to well a lot of things just depends on percents. Sheik DOES have grab setups with ftilt and landing an ftilt guarantees you a follow up of your choice after 30%. Mk ftilts really well although landing ftilt enough to decay it for usmash at KO percents is rather difficult against him.

Edit: Sheik also has GR>needle storm at the edge vs. MK.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Damage after grab release is heavily dependent on the location on the stage and your needle charge. It can be anywhere from nothing to 30%, and pretty much everywhere inbetween. Ftilt -> anything that isn't grab release DACUS or a full up smash really isn't that scary.

MK can do dtilt ftilt, which pops Sheik slightly above and in front of MK. That's a terrible zone for her because her options are reduced to 1. waste second jump 2. do a predictable dodge into the ground and 3. attempt to hit MK with moves much shorter than his own. Dthrow tornado or dthrow <x followup> are quite rewarding as well.

What I was really getting at, though, was if MK trades dtilt for jab and it trips, Sheik can't follow her jab up, lost the damage trade, and can be chased by a tornado/grab/just MK in general.

65-35 isn't a **** ratio, imo. I think she does better than Game and Watch, for instance.

Edit: Also, I've heard DMG has perfected the art of SDIing out of Sheik's up smash. Since it's inevitable that one will come out of her grab release (and if it doesn't, what's the harm in trying? Not like you'll exactly get punished for trying it on needles or something), once the MKs perfect this tactic, the matchup will swing even further out of Sheik's favor.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Edit: Also, I've heard DMG has perfected the art of SDIing out of Sheik's up smash. Since it's inevitable that one will come out of her grab release (and if it doesn't, what's the harm in trying? Not like you'll exactly get punished for trying it on needles or something), once the MKs perfect this tactic, the matchup will swing even further out of Sheik's favor.

As I remember, it's SDIing into the weak hit from the strong hit, more damage but doesn't kill as early.

 

[-Mars-]

Saying one could consistently SDI out of Sheik's usmash is about as realistic as me saying I could chain camp MK perfectly.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Saying one could consistently SDI out of Sheik's usmash is about as realistic as me saying I could chain camp MK perfectly.

It's all in the tech skills man, if it's humanly possible to perform (aka, not perfect JC shine) and doesn't require you to react faster then humanly possible, then yes, it should be accounted for in the MU.


If Sheik players become enough of a threat, I think Mk players will learn to SDI the upsmash.


Granted, how much later does it kill? You're still taking the strong hit, so you've got the extra percent tacked on to the weak percent's kill, plus the decay. Not gonna kill at 80, granted, but probably kills at a reasonable percent.

 

[Max Ketchum]

SDIing the up smash consistently doesn't even require prediction (if it's from a grab release, doing it on command is just ridiculous). It's just a matter of mashing the sticks somewhere. It'll be the same way every time.

 

[DMG]

Actually I've showed Light that you can SDI her Usmash like half the distance of FD rofl. It's very possible to consistently do it.

HOWEVER, I have not been able to 100% SDI Usmash into the ground and try to tech. I have been to 100% SDI the strong hit, into the weak hit, and DI that well, but It's been very tough trying to SDI that purely down. When you SDI into the weak hit, you have to kinda SDI diagonally, and switching from diagonally to QCSDI down is pretty hard. I've gotten low enough where it looks like the character is "grazing" the floor, but not where they are "embedded"/able to tech.

I can also go that low and still SDI horizontally half of FD, but going the extra distance completely down is really hard.

Also, you have to take into consideration the angle of Usmash at which she hits you. If she hits you with the tipper part, but on the middle inside, you have to DI away from the Usmash. If she hits you with the tipper part, but on the middle outside, you have to DI towards the Usmash.

It's kinda complicated, especially if you are purposely trying to take the extra hit/s, so remembering and inputting the exact ones you need for each situation might be hard. Shiek can hit with both the inside and outside part of Usmash from a grab release on MK, so it's hard to judge until she reaches you.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Teching the ground wasn't even really my main concern, it was more "avoiding the really strong hitbox" in some way.

 

[DMG]

Oh, well in that case, it's not necessarily avoiding the strong hitbox, so much as it's taking the first hit, then taking the second hit to suffer noticeable reduced knockback. It's the same principle as MK's Nair, where if you think you are gonna normally be killed by the strong hit, you SDI into MK to take the weak hit as well. That is completely doable, certain with "red flags" like a grab release set up.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Okay, let me rephrase that.

"avoiding full knockback of the really strong hitbox"

 

[DMG]

Yeah lol.

For that, entirely possible and at this point with it being more known hopefully, it should be almost expected on the MK's part IMO.

 

[DanGR]

Her first jab you cannot SDI a great distance. If you are caught near the tip/a bit further from the middle of the jab, you can SDI far enough to have the second jab miss, but besides that you can't go very far.

You can still avoid getting grabbed, just for her SDI won't solve much on her jab.

Falco though on the other hand...

I'm venturing back into this thread to mark this post with an "OMG, MORE MOVES FALCO RENDERS USELESS" comment.

That is all.

 

[rathy Aro]

So mk will take the 30 damage from gr no matter what, but she wouldn't be able to land tipper kills ay ~90 anymore?

 

[smasher01]

what should i ban on sheik FD or halberd?

 

[Kaffei]

what should i ban on sheik FD or halberd?

I would ban Halberd if I were you.

 

[OverLade]

I would ban FD. You can avoid Usmash on Halberd, but on FD he has a guaranteed setup if u get grabbed.

 

[Kaffei]

I would ban FD. You can avoid Usmash on Halberd, but on FD he has a guaranteed setup if u get grabbed.

Can you explain more?
Sorry, I don't really know much about the Meta Knight and Sheik MU.

 

[DMG]

Halberd +:

Sharking
Planking is more effective
Platforms allows you to cancel Tornado
Platform can stop grab release/stage changes can break you from her grasp/stage hazards can help you avoid a grab release
Camping on platforms can give you a better way to avoid needles

Halberd -:

Standing on platforms allows Shiek to get free tippered Usmashes because you are now spaced correctly for that to work
Lower Ceiling usually works against MK more than Shiek
Less room on the sides makes MK's superior momentum canceling/recovery not as noticeable, Shiek also recovers easier on this stage overall than FD




FD +:

More room for you to live Usmash/momentum cancel/recover. Gliding under the stage is now possible for the entire portion instead of just the moving platform part for Halberd
Shiek has a somewhat harder time recovering when sent away far

FD -:

Grab release on almost any portion of the stage leads to bad things
Needles are harder to avoid
No platforms to camp/wait patiently around/abuse

 

[Max Ketchum]

FD is the clear choice to ban.

To the guy asking how you can avoid grab release up smash on Halberd: If you are released and land on the platform, you will not be hit by up smash.

Also, why would MK land on the platform vulnerably? He has a ****load of jumps and ways to avoid landing himself right into a tipper usmash. Only time I'd see it being helpful is if his shield were deteriorated, but even then he could still jump or use other escape methods. Either way, it's still quite situational that it'll hit there, and still way less often than on FD.

Sheik doesn't like the low ceiling either, since MK can shut her approaches down with a grounded shuttle loop. Then there's also up tilt, glide attack, up air and up throw to worry about, as well as fsmash/dsmash killing off the top if you DI straight up (which is the norm most of the time). Keep in mind that Sheik has only one vertical kill move, and its usefulness is heavily compromised due to the platform.

The difference in difficulty recovering isn't that big, imo, but it is a factor. Still, I think Halberd >>>>>>> FD for MK in this matchup. FD is the only stage I'd be legitimately scared of Sheik on (or Pictochat if it's on but it never is up here).

 

[DMG]

What I meant was that if you are on a platform, you are in perfect tipper Usmash range. Whether it be on shield or hitting you, it's just something to take into consideration. Basically I was trying to say that it's a bad idea to stay on the platforms for an extended period of time.

As for the ceiling, those things are valid for MK, however they are fairly easily DI'd horizontally. Her Usmash it's hard to go low but not too far horizontally. You usually can get either low and really far horizontally, or close and really high.

MK will have more vertical killing opportunities, but her actual vertical kill move when landed benefits from the lower ceiling more than MK does when his moves land. Just my opinion though.

But I agree, I think Halberd is better.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Ah, yeah. I caught your drift, I was just playing devil's advocate really. Luckily MK doesn't have to worry about shield deterioration due to planking.

Edit: and MK's platform pressure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (times infinity) Sheik's too, which is cool.

 

[xx The King xx]

alright so i was reading the dk matchup, and i main dk and mk... DK does NOT approach with dash attack, dk only uses dash attack if its a sure hit because of the enormous lag following it, it can be shield fsmashed... the rest was good though

 

[Kaffei]

Thanks, DMG.

 

[Zozefup]

alright so i was reading the dk matchup, and i main dk and mk... DK does NOT approach with dash attack, dk only uses dash attack if its a sure hit because of the enormous lag following it, it can be shield fsmashed... the rest was good though

I thought dash attack and Dair was his best approaching options? And the best thing MK can do against olimar is to drill rush his sheild? And that MK should Dair camp and use tornado in the ditto?

 

[Nic64]

Missed this before and have to ask if anyone knows

If she crouches, lower your tornado.

If this works like Snake's crouch > shield does then this simply gives her a free powershield and takes you out of autocancel height...does anyone know how this works? I haven't played Sheik in like 6 months so I'm not about to play an MK with her to test it but I know Snake's crawl is actually really underutilized, I've been using it a lot in some other stuff I had difficulty with ever since halberd mentioned using it against tornado and I think it's helped me a lot with a few Snake matchups.

 

[OverLade]

Yeah lowering your nado against Snake/Sheiks crouch puts you at a disadvantage and makes it more likely that you'll get punished. It's best to stay high and try to mix up your landing game.

 

[-Mars-]

So wait besides Doom how do other MK mains look at this mu?

Halberd I know you get to play <3 and Scary sometimes and they're really good......how do you look at the matchup?

 

[Max Ketchum]

I thought dash attack and Dair was his best approaching options? And the best thing MK can do against olimar is to drill rush his sheild? And that MK should Dair camp and use tornado in the ditto?

Nowhere did I say it's the best option. Learn to ****ing read before you act like some know-it-all. I said it isn't a particularly awful idea because Olimar lacks grab armor, has a subpar shield, and Drill Rush pokes shields beautifully.

Please, cease with your incessant implications regarding becoming the one in charge of this thread. It's not happening. It's widely understood that some matchup summaries are outdated/poor.

 

[OverLade]

So wait besides Doom how do other MK mains look at this mu?

Halberd I know you get to play <3 and Scary sometimes and they're really good......how do you look at the matchup?

I dunno anymore, I play the matchup a lot but I played against Light and he said I was doing it wrong. I feel it may be 55-45 on FD but he says no way. 60-40 in general IMO, though he says its worse. We only played one match though, so once against, could've been different elsewhere.

So yeah, my opinion really doesnt matter. Its a shame when people listen to good people just because they're good. When I dont know what I'm talking about, I'll let you know