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Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

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FunkMaster

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you have a sword and speed. whack him and run away. I'm sure Wario Dude knows what's up.

and about the grab release, yeah I think so. you'll see it like almost never but who cares, you don't need that. you're

METAKNIGHT man!
 

Master Raven

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DMG teach me to camp Wario. I don't doubt MK beats him and I'd like to make the matchup easier for me :]
 

etecoon

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if he chooses not to get air released then he's going to get pummeled more, he has to pick his poison(although getting pummeled a little is much better for him)

I'd like DMG's advice on this too, I consider myself ok or pretty good at the wario matchup, it's not a problematic one for me, but I'm sure his advice on it is valuable
 

DMG

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DMG#931
MK can force Wario to air release, but only if he grabs Wario after he Double jumps, before he lands, and grabs him with a pivot grab.
 

OverLade

Smash Hero
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So to be productive, who should we discuss next? (warios basically already been discussed)

Theres been quite a bit of wolf hype and I think the matchup could use a bit of insight. Anyone else on board?
 

smasher01

Smash Ace
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after wolf can we do olimar or marth cuz good marths can shut us down and olimar is just weird?

o and one question what approch options do we have agains marth? that work good.
I have no matchup experence against marth.
 

MiniTroika

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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^ LOL. You're only gonna get short answers. XD


For those interested in the Wario/Meta matchup, I actually have a video of me camping DeBom, but I'm pretty sure I'll get torn to shreds for posting it cause it was wifi match (With no noticeable lag of any kind!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax_0DDx68_M
 

napZzz

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This is probably the best matchup thread I've seen yet. Why do the METAKNIGHT boards of all places have it! ;__;
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Fiction did ok that match, I thought Dojo could have camped him a bit harder and won with a bigger lead. Dojo would have REALLY put the hurt on him if he slowed down and timed his Ftilt swings to beat Fiction's spoddodging/SDIing out.
 

Toronto Joe

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i noticed m2k uses alot of well place nados and fair > dtilt alot to keep marth at bay....you gotta play really lame vs marth lol

if anyone has good olimar/ditto/pit/peach/rob vids id appreciate it
 

MiniTroika

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i noticed m2k uses alot of well place nados and fair > dtilt alot to keep marth at bay....you gotta play really gay vs marth lol

if anyone has good olimar/ditto/pit/peach/rob vids id appreciate it

I'll try to get some vids of me against rich/havok/Mike this saturday. That good?:lick:

As for Pit and Peach, there are two players that play those characters here but they aren't so good. Anything better than nothing right?:ohwell: Commander Beef also plays ROB, so I can try to get some things up.
 

theunabletable

Smash Lord
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^Yeah that'd be awesome to see some matches of you versus Rich if you win them anyways...

Olimar matchup is wierd and Rich always beats me...
 

MiniTroika

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No dice, I couldn't go Ministry of Smash :( I only have a video of me versus Dao, but I have next to no Diddy Kong experience.
 

Zozefup

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
1,092
you guys are sleeping lol. I need olimar help plz?
Jeeze, you ask about hard match ups. I could right a 10 page paper about fighting olimar :(.
did you read the guide on page one? There is 12 paragraphs on fighting Olimar. But yeah, it doesn't really tell you much.
 

Zozefup

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Ok.. I'll try to sum up the olimar match up.
I just made a thread about this because I'm afraid if I don't, then it will be lost in these 155 pages forever. And this took a decent amount of time to write.


First, I would watch these two videos, and watch how he gets the kills. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haFiXIZilBA&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmB0xBcBO8c

Gimping olimar is EXTREMELY important. It's what makes the match up in MKs favor. The goal of gimping olimar is to wait for him to use his double jump, then SL him. Don't worry about making your Dsmash go stale in this match up. It puts him in the air and near the edge right where you want him. Your Dsmash can be by olimars shield grab. So try to land behind him, or at a distance away from so that your Dsmash barely hits his shield. Being directly on top of his is a good place to Dsmash too. Basically, pretend his shield grab is the same distance as MKs. If you are in that range, don't Dsmash. If you land in that grab range, then you need to ftilt or dtilt as soon as possible. If you hit his shield with the ftilt, he will grab you after you complete all 3 ftilts. So instead I like to use the first 2 ftilt swings, then SL. That will usually prevent you from being grabbed.

Olimar hates grabbing the ledge, and you hate him grabbing the ledge too. So give him some space, and make it look like the stage is wide open for him to land on. This will set you up for the gimp. As he is approaching the stage, get under him (not directly under him, but close enough so that if he went straight down to the stage, he would be in Dsmash range). This will scare him and he will probably double jump. As soon as he does, you SL gimp him. If he starts dodging your SL, then next time just wait for the air dodge to end and punish (with a changed Dsmash/Fsmash/Nair/Fair are all good options). The trick is to be patient with olimar is in the air.

If olimar acts like he is going for the ledge, it's probably a trick. He will use his double jump and try to land on the stage. Be ready for it and tag him with a Dair like at 1:57 of the first video I linked you too. If for some reason he goes below the stage and tries to grab the edge with his UpB, then grab the ledge before he does it. If he simpliy falls on the ledge without his UpB, let him do it. Olimar only has too options off the ledge, and both of them are bad. 90% of the time he will use his get up attack very quickly after he grabs the ledge. So decently close to the ledge and get your shield up quickly. After the attack hits you, Dsmash! His other option is you jump. If you see the jump and you have time to punish it, then hit him with an aerial, and repeat the edge guarding process. If you don't have time to hit him with an aerial.. so what, olimar is in the air again. So wait for the double jump and gimp. Another safe option when olimar grabs the ledge is to tornado. I would just tornado if you need want more damage. Even if olimar drops below the stage when you tornado, he doesn't have many options. Move the tornado far enough away so that his off the ledge attack can't hit you (it has crazy range). When your tornado stops, he will either get up from the ledge, or he will jump. If he gets up from the ledge, it's safe to approach him with a grounded tornado.



Tornado! is probably the best move you have in this match up. Olimar has a VERY small shield, and your tornado can usually poke though it. The tornado will throw olimar in the air and give you a chance to kill or rack up more damage. Again, be patient while olimar is in the air. You don't want to do much of anything besides walking and staying under him (but not directly under) until he is about to touch the ground. When he is about to touch the ground, a couple things may happen. Either he will throw out a fair, or he will dodge into the ground. Sometime he may try to land directly on top of you with a Nair. Using tornado again will beat all of his options. The only thing he can do about it (and he will try) is save his double jump until you start your tornado. If that happens, you can: spam B as fast as you can and try to hit him in the air, or you can not press B at all and hope your nado ends before he hits the ground. If he is really high in the air, I would try to end the tornado quickly.

Another option when olmar is about to dodge into the ground is a dash attack. This is really good option if it looks like you're barely going to make it to him. If olimar is at low percents, Utilt usually combos very well after the dash attack and puts him in the air. Dash attack is also excellent for a quick surprise approach. If you're stand just outside of olimars grab range, then approaching quickly with a dash attack will usually connect. Don't just run across the screen and dash attack though! And need to do it when your already standing close to him.

When olimar is about to land, make sure you get the tornado out BEFORE he lands. If he can fast fall>dodge into the ground before your tornado gets there, then you risk him shielding it or pivot grabbing you.

you have more options than the tornado. Hitting olimar with an aerial, grabbing him, or even smashing him when he hits the ground is more devastating than the tornado. So if you are confident that you can hit with something better, go for it. The tornado is the safest option though.

Comboing olimar at zero percent is a little trickier. At high percents, he goes very high in the air and you can use the gimping technique, or punish him as he hits the ground. At low percents he doesn't go very high and comboing is harder. Like if you hit him with the tornado at low percents, it will pop him up barely above your head. Olimar will be coming towards the ground way quicker than you can get the tornado out to put him back in the air. Olimar will also be coming at you with a Nair, Bair, or Fair, depending on where he is at in relation to you. I wouldn't recommend trying to hit him with an aerial. It's difficult to aerial him when he is doing a Nair near your head! And if he can hit you with the Nair, it will lead into some crazy combo and you'll take 30+ damage! So when you barely pop olimar in the air, I would recommend just holding your shield. That way you can shield his Nair and punish it. The Nair has very little landing lag, and olimar will usually smash (sometimes grab) after the Nair, so be ready to punish the Nair quickly. If you're sure you can shield grab then do it. My favorite way to punish is to UpB out of shield. Even if he lands behind you where you can't shield grab him, you can still reverse SL.


If you decide to approach olimar with the tornado, make sure you short hop>tornado, don't start it on the ground. You want to hit him in the head with the bottom on the tornado. If you start it on the ground then you risk being pivot grabbed. It's fine to start it on the ground if you know he can't pivot grab (like when he is falling or when he is near the ledge). If olimar didn't have a full shield when you started the tornado, then it will poke through his shield. It's usually a good idea to start the tornado somewhat close to him. That way it will rip through his shield for an even longer time. The only time you want chase olimar across the stage with it is when his shield is low.

The most effective way to fight olimar and make sure your tornadoes connect is to Dair camp. You want to Dair camp him in a northeast or northwest direction from olimar. The goal isn't to actually hit him with the Dairs. Your goal is to make him shield or move away from the center of the stage. It is probably a good idea to try to hit him with one every now and then, but I would do this VERY rarely. While you are Dair camping, olimar will try to him you with Usmashes, Uairs, or UpBs. If you keep your spacing right, he should be able to hit you with any of these. Your Dair will also knock the pikaman away when he tries to Usmash, but the timing is near impossibe to do on purpose. If you throw out enough Dairs, you'll usually hit them away by accident. Good spacing off the ground will also make it easier to Dair olimar's Usmash attempts. Your spacing need to be low enough that you don't get hit with UpB, close enough that you keep pressure on him, but high and far enough away so that he can't easily Upsmash you.

When your Dair camping and olimar shields, that's your cue, TORNADO!! His shield will be wore down enough that your nado will eat through it. However, if it looks like his shield is still going to hold, then just retreat. Olimar isn't fast enough to punish you if you can get far enough away from him. And once you have retreated safely, his shield will be low from the last tornado, so short hop and chase him across the screen with it. The other option you have while camping is to dodge into the ground and Dsmash. Dtilt or Ftilt will work well too. Dsmash is higher risk and higher reward than your tilt options. I prefer Dsmash because in my experience, it usually connects.


When olimar is stuck in the tornado, you want to move the tornado so that olimar is stuck in the top left, or top right corner of the nado. If he is in the top middle, he can Nair you out of your nado and possibly combo you with an Usmash. I also think it's best not to do the rising tornado in this match up. Just press B about every half a second. That will keep your tornado out of the max time, and it will keep you from flying way in the air with it. You want to be on the ground as soon as possible after the nado so you can be ready to gimp/combo!


A popular edge guarding technique is to chase olimar off the stage and try to hit him with a Dair for Fair. I really believe that waiting patiently for him to come near the stage is the best option though. If you hit olimar very far away from the stage at a horizontal angle, then the Dair would probably be worth going for. But normally just wait.

There is a ton more I need to write, but I think I'm going to stop there :p
 

Zozefup

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
1,092
Thankyou for all the info. its still hard to see D-air camping really working cuz they could just Up-B you or U-Smash you?
No, you HAVE to Dair camp. Your Dair can knock his Upsmash away. And thats risking for olimar to try. If olimar is resorting to trying to Upsmash you out of the air, then your playing it right. Olimar never knows when you will throw out tornado, so Upsmash is risky for him.

You can approach from the ground, but that is usually suicide. It takes a really good understand of olimar to do that. Olimar has one of the best ground games in brawl.
 

Nic64

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 6, 2003
Messages
1,725
dair camping/camping in general works extremely well vs Olimar, once you have a lead he can't really do anything, you can shake his pikmin off before they do any damage at all.
 

smasher01

Smash Ace
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No, you HAVE to Dair camp. Your Dair can knock his Upsmash away. And thats risking for olimar to try. If olimar is resorting to trying to Upsmash you out of the air, then your playing it right. Olimar never knows when you will throw out tornado, so Upsmash is risky for him.

You can approach from the ground, but that is usually suicide. It takes a really good understand of olimar to do that. Olimar has one of the best ground games in brawl.
but what about up-b thats like in the range of where i d-air camp.
 

Zozefup

Smash Lord
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but what about up-b thats like in the range of where i d-air camp.
I wish I could find a video to show you the spacing :(. Dair camp horizontally from olimar. He can't hit you with the UpB. MK can also tornado through his UpB XD

This MK isn't very good, but I found a video showing how good tornado is VS olimar! This olimar is really really good too. Theres just not much he can do against nado spam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rRpsFiH99M
 

PZ

Smash Lord
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i dont know why you need a disadvantage or big disadvantage pretty much the only chars that have a possiblity of beating mk is pikachu and kirby(snake too but just like falco and diddy the recovery of the character depends)
 

DanGR

BRoomer
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I wish I could find a video to show you the spacing :(. Dair camp horizontally from olimar. He can't hit you with the UpB. MK can also tornado through his UpB XD

This MK isn't very good, but I found a video showing how good tornado is VS olimar! This olimar is really really good too. Theres just not much he can do against nado spam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rRpsFiH99M
Upb goes through the tornado... every... time.

Also, that Olimar player wasn't dealing with tornado correctly. Simply running away after the first tornado and preparing to upb another will guarantee his safety.
 
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