Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

[OverLade]

Thanks Omni.

Alright, so there's been a lot of open discussion and I'm sure lots of good Data has been thrown around.

Who does everyone want to discuss next? I'll get around to writing up summaries soon.

 

[smasher01]

Diddy kong plz

 

[Staco]

GaW, just cause of Tyrant doing bad vs. them. (seriously, I thought MK ***** GaW, but at that matches it didnt seem so)

 

[DMG]

MK ***** G&W. That matchup makes me wanna Flarble my Garble Garble.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Do Lucario that match-up is like even ...

 

[DMG]

Lucario:

Avoid the ****, **** him back.

 

[Jupz]

Lol I love taking the piss out of low tier mainers.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Lucario:

Avoid the ****, **** him back.

Sounds like a plan except for the "**** him back" part, which doesn't really work.

 

[Nic64]

lucario obviously has teh advantage agaisnt meta knight leik he gets stronger whn you hit him emeyerite

 

[DMG]

The **** Him Back Strategy: Always Works With MK.

 

[LiL.Will]

The **** Him Back Strategy: Always Works With MK.

Unless its Lee Martin.

 

[DMG]

Lee Martin: Approves Of The **** Him Back Strategy.

 

[Nic64]

How to beat every matchup

edit: lol I'm lazy/bad at MS paint

 

[Staco]

What about Snake/ICs?

 

[Nic64]

Avoid the **** and **** them back.

Run MK!

and IMO Diddy is harder than Snake but people think Snake beats MK for some reason -_-;;

 

[OverLade]

Please stay on topic and not spam.

Lets choose someone to discuss who hasn't been discussed since re-discussion started. Unless theres a general consensus that everyone would like to start over.

 

[Master Raven]

Why don't we do Pikachu.

 

[smasher01]

Please stay on topic and not spam.

Lets choose someone to discuss who hasn't been discussed since re-discussion started. Unless theres a general consensus that everyone would like to start over.

like diddy kong hes really annoying and goes like even with us all the time also makes us feel really dumb sometimes which makes us feel like our game is off when were playing him lol.

Ill start power shield his glide toss and up-b works really good when you have a level with platforms.

 

[Sushi-Man]

Diddy is harder than snake imo

 

[smasher01]

Same so lets start diddy. Some one say somthing lol i started it

 

[OverLade]

Check the first page, and choose someone that hasn't been rediscussed...

 

[Max Ketchum]

Diddy kong plz

No. We have a fine summary for him, and just a few days ago rediscussed it...

GaW, just cause of Tyrant doing bad vs. them. (seriously, I thought MK ***** GaW, but at that matches it didnt seem so)

NO. Tyrant sucks at that matchup...watch this, this is why MK ***** GW (same GW that beat Tyrant).

UTDZac vs Havok 1
UTDZac vs Havok 2

MK ***** G&W. That matchup makes me wanna Flarble my Garble Garble.

^

Do Lucario that match-up is like even ...

LOL. Are you serious?

Lucario:

Avoid the ****, **** him back.

^

Sounds like a plan except for the "**** him back" part, which doesn't really work.

v

The **** Him Back Strategy: Always Works With MK.

^

How to beat every matchup

edit: lol I'm lazy/bad at MS paint

This was great.

What about Snake/ICs?

Imo, Snake and ICs are harder than Diddy and Lucario. MK gets ***** very hard for every mistake he makes (huge damage vs. Snake, loss of a stock vs. ICs). I think Snake and IC are even, whereas Diddy and Lucario lose 55-45 and 6-4 respectively.

Avoid the **** and **** them back.

Run MK!

and IMO Diddy is harder than Snake but people think Snake beats MK for some reason -_-;;

Diddy is definitely easier. He doesn't live forever and kill MK at 98%. He has very few options against MK's pressure without bananas, whereas Snake has frame 1 grenades and huge/fast/strong ftilt.

 

[OverLade]

This is why Doom is awesome. ^_^

And Havok plays the GaW matchup amazingly. He gave Zac NOTHING. No opportunities for anything really.

Anyway for the sake of consistency I'm going to wait until next week before I start next discussion. Just coast for a minute in here.

 

[Nic64]

Diddy is definitely easier. He doesn't live forever and kill MK at 98%. He has very few options against MK's pressure without bananas, whereas Snake has frame 1 grenades and huge/fast/strong ftilt.

Diddy has better options in the air and off stage, one grab can let you **** Snake for a good 50%+ or death where as Diddy will quickly run away to get more banana's out. Grenades may appear frame 1 but they don't even come close to protecting Snake's entire hurtbox and if you hit him while he's holding one he takes more damage than you and is frequently vulnerable to a follow up hit, and if he pulls one when you're not attacking he is vulnerable.

But I guess I shouldn't bother, you're the one that told me there's no functional difference between Snake and MK's ftilt range

 

[Palpi]

You shouldn't bother. Really.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Diddy has better options in the air and off stage, one grab can let you **** Snake for a good 50%+ or death where as Diddy will quickly run away to get more banana's out. Grenades may appear frame 1 but they don't even come close to protecting Snake's entire hurtbox and if you hit him while he's holding one he takes more damage than you and is frequently vulnerable to a follow up hit, and if he pulls one when you're not attacking he is vulnerable.

But I guess I shouldn't bother, you're the one that told me there's no functional difference between Snake and MK's ftilt range

There's MINIMAL difference.

For the past two days I've done almost nothing but play the Snake/MK matchup from both ends. Ftilt spacing did not shut neither my Snake nor the opponent's Snake out much at ALL. Also, MK whiffing an ftilt hit or hitting Snake's shield with it = free 21% for Snake, simple rock/paper/scissors allows Snake to prevent this scenario from being disadvantageous.

But I guess I shouldn't bother, you're the one that told me wi-fi with NEO constitutes as top-level Marth experience.

 

[Nic64]

Not exactly what I said, most of my opinions are based on theory, experience may be enlightening but doesn't change what the game is. Any Marth will tell you MK ***** him anyway. I really don't understand how you could consider it a close matchup when MK's tools are so superior and in many cases directly nullify Marth's.

On Snake, you still fail to realize that you don't have to randomly attack his shield with unsafe moves, he's the slower character with less range and safe options. It's not really R/P/S because if you zone him right you don't have to make the first move, and even if it were, MK can potentially benefit more from good guesses, his juggling and edge guarding abilities are every bit as good or better than Snake's ftilt or tech chase.

And I still believe that if you think the difference between Snake and MK's ftilts is "minimal" you haven't really tested Snake/MK's hitboxes, they're really not that close unless you're counting ftilt2(17 frames from start up and super unsafe on the block, nice zoning tool there Snake)

 

[OverLade]

Snake has these things called grenades. Its not like marth where either character is taking a risk by attacking. Theres an eb and flow to the pressure of MK vs. Snake.

And also Nic, you're forgetting there's this thing called "feasable human reaction". Within Human ability to react, MKs Ftilt being slightly faster makes almost no difference whatsoever. Theory doesnt always apply because we're humans, not computers that play according to frame data...

 

[Nic64]

I'm not talking about attack speed that much when I say that, Snake is an extremely fast character for attack speed especially given his weight class, no doubt there. But MK walks faster than Snake, having more range too, he doesn't have to be inside Snake's range as often as Snake has to be in his(for physical attacks)

I'm not saying it's **** or anything I just don't understand how it's even or in Snake's favor

 

[Max Ketchum]

Not exactly what I said, most of my opinions are based on theory, experience may be enlightening but doesn't change what the game is. Any Marth will tell you MK ***** him anyway. I really don't understand how you could consider it a close matchup when MK's tools are so superior and in many cases directly nullify Marth's.

On Snake, you still fail to realize that you don't have to randomly attack his shield with unsafe moves, he's the slower character with less range and safe options. It's not really R/P/S because if you zone him right you don't have to make the first move, and even if it were, MK can potentially benefit more from good guesses, his juggling and edge guarding abilities are every bit as good or better than Snake's ftilt or tech chase.

And I still believe that if you think the difference between Snake and MK's ftilts is "minimal" you haven't really tested Snake/MK's hitboxes, they're really not that close unless you're counting ftilt2(17 frames from start up and super unsafe on the block, nice zoning tool there Snake)

Trust me, I've played this matchup PLENTY of times offline with good players. I know the ranges quite well. MK is NOT always going to be in that ideal zone due to grenades and the fact that the game is played in REAL TIME. In theory, yes, it's pretty bad for Snake because pixel-for-pixel, MK wins. Shield comes out faster than either ftilt anyway, MK doesn't have to "randomly attack his shield with unsafe moves". It's a guessing game, it's rock paper scissors, if Snake predicts an ftilt he presses R and punishes for 21%.

Theory version of Snake vs. MK as opposed to real Snake vs. MK is vastly different. Not even M2K and Tyrant play the match picture perfect. Not because they don't know the matchup well enough, but because Snake can do his thing to STOP MK from zoning him terribly. You figure if it were that easy, results would reflect it.

Edit: The evenness stems from the terribly skewed kill percents and Snake's ability to shut down dair camping.

 

[Nic64]

Yes, MK won't *always* be in the proper zone, there is the human element and even a horrible character like Falcon could just outplay you, obviously, but I don't really consider that part of matchups...and yes, Snake isn't completely outclassed, I think it's closeish, just in MK's favor.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Because MK slightly outranging Snake and having a better walking speed/mobility in general doesn't make the close-combat zone disadvantageous for Snake, he still has more than one option to deal with slightly losing ftilt vs. ftilt.

 

[smasher01]

Snake is gay. The match ups 50/50 to me

 

[Jupz]

Kill percents are a HUGE difference in this matchup, watch any M2K vs ally match.

 

[Staco]

And Ally doesnt get gimped.
There are ways to get around it.

 

[OverLade]

And Ally doesnt get gimped.
There are ways to get around it.

Ally definetly does get gimped occasionally. And I've yet to see a top MK besides Seibrik Footstool Snake out of C4 recovery, which results in a stock if Snake C4 recovers low (like he should). And even if Snake doesnt get gimped he's going to take at least 70% recovery from off the edge after getting hit out of a 2nd jump.

Kill percentages definetly do vary, but MK can play just outside of Snakes Utilt range and force snake to kill him with something else. Snake has other great options obviously, but MK will live a very long time in this matchup if he wants to.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Grab release (fresh) dash attack kills MK at 140-150.

 

[OverLade]

Grab release (fresh) dash attack kills MK at 140-150.

Yeah I was going to mention it, but realistically its unlikely to be fresh at that point. Either way I usually find myself getting killed by grenades or fresh Ftilts after Snake comes back. I think Snake can force MK into kill situations really well but it's not necessarily going to be utilt very often.

 

[etecoon]

isn't grab the same speed as utilt for snake with with less range IIRC? if you're avoiding one you're generally avoiding the other, but dash attack can punish whiffed attacks and stuff, and like everything snake has can kill at some point at least

 

[smasher01]

The snake match is really like rock, paper, scissors you should never approach the same way every time
you want to keep the snake guessing.