Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

[~ Gheb ~]

All characters can beat Planking. It's less broken than ICs infinte grab and should not be banned.

- If you get grabbed by ICs you're dead, if the opponent planks you're not
- You can prevent planking by maintaining the lead but it doesn't stop the ICs from 0-deathing you
- If the opponent starts planking you can still hit him. If ICs grab you you're done for

All characters can beat planking by powershielding the aerial. If you do it right you can drop and grab the ledge before MK gets to grab it. Problem solved.

 

[Max Ketchum]

All characters can beat Planking. It's less broken than ICs infinte grab and should not be banned.

Less broken? On par, I'd say.

- If you get grabbed by ICs you're dead, if the opponent planks you're not

You're as good as dead, lol. It just takes a lot longer.

- You can prevent planking by maintaining the lead but it doesn't stop the ICs from 0-deathing you

Killing Nana does. But a good point otherwise.

- If the opponent starts planking you can still hit him. If ICs grab you you're done for

Pit is unhittable. His up B has such a ridiculous autosnap range that he can infinitely plank without being hit.

All characters can beat planking by powershielding the aerial. If you do it right you can drop and grab the ledge before MK gets to grab it. Problem solved.

Not if your opponent is Pit. <_<

MK's planking is the least threatening between the top three (MK/GW/Pit). It's a banworthy tactic, stoppable or not, due to its nature.


If frame data proves that Pit runs out of invincibility before being able to regrab, then disregard the statement I made about that, but I'm pretty sure that's how it goes.

 

[Nic64]

- You can prevent planking by maintaining the lead but it doesn't stop the ICs from 0-deathing you

...Don't get grabbed?

 

[Staco]

Getting a grab with ICs is much harder than getting a lead to start planking.
A grab with IC wins 1/3 of the match (most of the time you got %, so its less than 1/3 of your stocks).

Beeing planked gives your enemy a 95%? win vs. some chars like Falco, except he is really bad at planking.
A change of a lead also happens in a match.
50:50 chance to get the first hit? Afterwards the lead often changes sometimes, so the chance to get the possibility for planking is more than 50%. (I talk about even players)
Planking can also be started at the beginning of the match, so that the guy, who gets planked will loose or it will end in a draw.

All characters can beat planking by powershielding the aerial. If you do it right you can drop and grab the ledge before MK gets to grab it. Problem solved.

Okay, have fun at powershielding MKs Fair, GaWs Nair and Pits Uair.

Even if you can grab the edge.


What are your options?

You can go up again. Planker can grab the edge again. No use for you.
You can stay at the edge. Your enemy can stagespike you.
You can go off the edge and try to hit the planker. Chars like Falco get gimped ridiculous easy when doing it and you can still get stagespiked.


What are the options of the planker?

Waiting for you to go up again and grabbing the edge again.
Gimping or Stagespiking you.
Going under the stage and grabbing the other edge.
Going on the stage and getting the advantage to have the enemy at the edge or just running to the other edge.

Yeah, its so ****n easy to beat planking.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't even have to look at frame data/compare options to know that over 2/3rds of the cast cannot be reasonably expected to stop planking or have a decent shot at stopping it. This includes Pit's Planking, G&W's Planking, and MK's planking (Marth can do it ok, but he is slightly more vulnerable to people jumping down and trying to interrupt in some way).

Now if you want, I can look into it deeper for characters that look more promising, and compare frame data and see what they can do, but honestly there are no characters out there that I think can 100% stop planking when done very well. MK himself is easily the best anti planking character, and I think he can either stop or put a lot of pressure on Pit and G&W when they plank. That and if MK gets the lead against those characters, he himself can go plank them back effectively. MK being able to stop another MK from planking is a more complex question.

It would be nice if you did look into it, but I'd rather not force it.

The tactic still sounds like a stall tactic simular to Peach bomber, infinite dimensional cape, and Jigg's rising pound. It may not be as broken as the above three where they could literally make themselves untouchable, but it does something to a simular effect. Some characters can try to fight the tactic, but for the majority they don't have good viable answers to this.

 

[OverLade]

All characters can beat Planking. It's less broken than ICs infinte grab and should not be banned.

- If you get grabbed by ICs you're dead, if the opponent planks you're not
- You can prevent planking by maintaining the lead but it doesn't stop the ICs from 0-deathing you
- If the opponent starts planking you can still hit him. If ICs grab you you're done for

All characters can beat planking by powershielding the aerial. If you do it right you can drop and grab the ledge before MK gets to grab it. Problem solved.

@ this.

IC infinite isn't NEAR as broken as planking. Only a handful of characters can beat planking.

You cant hit a good MK that's planking without losing a stock unless you're one of a few characters.

If MK planks with Uairs, Powershield if you want, it doesnt mean you can do anything before he Uairs you again. If you shield 2 uairs he can tornado you, or simply continue to uair until it pokes or you retreat. Obviously this doesn't apply against everyone. But saying "every character can beat planking" is bull****.

There's this thing called skill and mistakes that lets you separate ICs. Planking is rather difficult to mess up.

 

[Staco]

If we put planking on a MU.

For example MK vs. Falco.

Falco cant beat a planking MK.

The MU is 50:50 without planking.
Falco wins 50 of 100 matches.
From this 50 matches MK gets the first hit in 50% of them. (maybe the first hit depends on the MU, but for example I will just say its 50:50 in this MU)
This means with planking Falco only wins 25 matches. Normaly he would have won 50 of 100, but with planking allowed he gets planked for sure in 25 of them.
But the lead can also change even when Falco gets the first hit.

So the planking allowed MU for Falco vs. MK is 75:25 and better for MK.

 

[UTDZac]

You can't powershield windboxes =P

 

[OverLade]

You can't powershield windboxes =P

Lmfao thats just gay.

 

[DMG]

Yeah the argument "Just PS the aerial and grab the edge" does NOT work here.

MK's Uair is two frames. 2!!! Are you honestly telling me that you can, ON REACTION, Power Shield MK's Uair when he's NOT forced to use it in a pattern? (If MK absolutely HAD to Uair at a certain time for Planking to work, you could figure that pattern out and hope to get lucky in the PS. This isn't the case though.)

As for G&W and Pit, that also seems quite hard to imagine. G&W's aerials are all multi hit, and Uair has the windbox. Pit's Uair is also multi hit.

But of course Gheb, you thought it through when you posted that, exploring all aspects before making a judgement. You know something Ironic?

Let's take Brinstar as an example. How well do IC's function there? Would it be reasonable to assume that most characters can reasonably avoid getting grabbed by IC's on that stage? Well now, what else can people do on Brinstar?

They can Plank.

For IC's, there are quite a few stages where it's not impossible to avoid getting grabbed by them. Whether it be CP stages or neutrals. What do you tell people to do about planking? Pick a stage with no edges? Pick a stage that has platforms under the edges? There's not any automatic "Hey just go here to solve the problem" advice for planking, where as I can name at least 5+ stages that players can reasonably avoid getting grabbed with most characters.

 

[DanGR]

Planking? Who does that anymore.

You can just glide down to the middle-bottom of the stage, use all your jumps there, and then drill rush to the side your opponent isn't on. The best thing is that there's a hitbox in the way of grabbing the ledge as MK gets close. If they happen to grab the ledge as you get near, you can just land on stage.

edit: This should go without saying that it doesn't work against every character.

 

[OverLade]

Yeah the argument "Just PS the aerial and grab the edge" does NOT work here.

MK's Uair is two frames. 2!!! Are you honestly telling me that you can, ON REACTION, Power Shield MK's Uair when he's NOT forced to use it in a pattern? (If MK absolutely HAD to Uair at a certain time for Planking to work, you could figure that pattern out and hope to get lucky in the PS. This isn't the case though.)

As for G&W and Pit, that also seems quite hard to imagine. G&W's aerials are all multi hit, and Uair has the windbox. Pit's Uair is also multi hit.

But of course Gheb, you thought it through when you posted that, exploring all aspects before making a judgement. You know something Ironic?

Let's take Brinstar as an example. How well do IC's function there? Would it be reasonable to assume that most characters can reasonably avoid getting grabbed by IC's on that stage? Well now, what else can people do on Brinstar?

They can Plank.

For IC's, there are quite a few stages where it's not impossible to avoid getting grabbed by them. Whether it be CP stages or neutrals. What do you tell people to do about planking? Pick a stage with no edges? Pick a stage that has platforms under the edges? There's not any automatic "Hey just go here to solve the problem" advice for planking, where as I can name at least 5+ stages that players can reasonably avoid getting grabbed with most characters.

Koga was pretty awesome. I used Hypno against his annoying poison Pokemon.

edit:

Oh btw good read. And the ledge grab rule doesnt work, especially against MK. You can use half your jumps, then glide under the stage and grab the other ledge, which takes about 6 seconds. Also, Seibrik showed me to time people out on smashville without grabbing the ledge. YOu can glide under the stage continuously ONLY using the platform. I'm sure many other stages can work similarly.

 

[DMG]

You know what people haven't abused yet? Gliding under the stage, and instead of ending your glide, directing it up and going WAY up near the vertical/horizontal boundaries, then falling back down, and planking as usual on the other edge. It's very hard to punish when done right, and eats up SO much time.

 

[Max Ketchum]

You know what people haven't abused yet? Gliding under the stage, and instead of ending your glide, directing it up and going WAY up near the vertical/horizontal boundaries, then falling back down, and planking as usual on the other edge. It's very hard to punish when done right, and eats up SO much time.

I've started doing this.

Any ****** who decides to pick Olimar on me will feel the full wrath of this tactic.

 

[Staco]

MK vs. DDD MU changed a bit, becaue of a new AT. Now its much better for DDD.

Inhale leads into UTilt.
MK is now so much easier to kill for DDD. :/

 

[Gnes]

I've started doing this.

Any ****** who decides to pick Olimar on me will feel the full wrath of this tactic.

****. Doom tellin it like it is.

 

[OverLade]

MK vs. DDD MU changed a bit, becaue of a new AT. Now its much better for DDD.

Inhale leads into UTilt.
MK is now so much easier to kill for DDD. :/

I was with Seibrik as he tested this

edit:I invited him to the smashfest where he tested it.

If it werent for ME. NOBODY WOULD KNOW.

 

[Max Ketchum]

MK vs. DDD MU changed a bit, becaue of a new AT. Now its much better for DDD.

Inhale leads into UTilt.
MK is now so much easier to kill for DDD. :/

Mad truth.

****. Doom tellin it like it is.

LOL I love every post this guy makes.

I was with Seibrik as he tested this

edit:I invited him to the smashfest where he tested it.

If it werent for ME. NOBODY WOULD KNOW.

You love taking credit for things, don't you? XD

 

[OverLade]

Hahahaha I wish I could take credit for stuff. All I did was copy everyone else.

 

[MiniTroika]

You know what people haven't abused yet? Gliding under the stage, and instead of ending your glide, directing it up and going WAY up near the vertical/horizontal boundaries, then falling back down, and planking as usual on the other edge. It's very hard to punish when done right, and eats up SO much time.

You can't use this tactic as it falls under stalling and not planking. It can't be argued that it would be used to gain a more advantageous position relative to the stage.

 

[Staco]

Good News for us!

Im pretty sure that MK can escape it with an Up B or maybe can land a footstool before DDD can do the UTilt.

Any1 got the frame data of this?

 

[OverLade]

Good News for us!

Im pretty sure that MK can escape it with an Up B or maybe can land a footstool before DDD can do the UTilt.

Any1 got the frame data of this?

I know how to escape it.

BTW did ANYONE know that you can footstool tornado to bounce on top of it? Is this common knowledge? I hadn't seen anyone do it till last saturday.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Pretty commonplace, yeah.

 

[Staco]

I tested some more with the DDD thing.
Even if the DDD turnarounds, when you do nothing you will escape the front way and not getting hit by the utilt.

 

[UTDZac]

You know what people haven't abused yet? Gliding under the stage, and instead of ending your glide, directing it up and going WAY up near the vertical/horizontal boundaries, then falling back down, and planking as usual on the other edge. It's very hard to punish when done right, and eats up SO much time.

Wouldn't this be considered "Stalling" because you are putting the game in an unplayable state. It's impossible for the opponent to hit you under the stage and impossible when you are sky hi near the blast zones.

I've contemplated doing this in teams with double G&W and infinite UpBs, but dur that crap is banned.

 

[Max Ketchum]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WupZQjzPGWs&feature=player_profilepage

~1:33ish

Now, I haven't seen videos of the technique or any frame data, but there's just no way Dedede can up tilt fast enough to avoid that.

Ignore me playing not-so-great.

 

[Staco]

The idea is to just let the MK break out (he ends up directly over DDD) and hit him with a buffered UTilt.
To do this even better the DDD can turn around multiple times and buffering the UTilt while doing it.
The problem is that a MK, who does nothing wont break out and that MK can maybe Up B/Footstool DDD before he can do his UTilt.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Ah, I see...

 

[Master Raven]

Some moves can hit DDD before he releases, but he can just shield right away. I don't remember if Dair really works or not.

You also cannot air dodge out of it right away either.

I'm going to send a file with all the test footage we did when Seibrik gets back home.

@Staco - I don't think I've done that, but even then if he's not doing anything, that's free damage on MK's end since DDD can just spit him out.

The AT should really be used as a mixup - it's REALLY good on characters like Snake once you realize the potential mixups.

 

[Staco]

I wouldnt really care about 10 spit out %, which DDD normaly would also have got instead of getting killed at 100%.

So it wont change anything in the MU, if you dont make the mistake and break out.

 

[Cold Fusion]

All characters can beat planking by powershielding the aerial. If you do it right you can drop and grab the ledge before MK gets to grab it. Problem solved.

Not all forms planking involves attacking.

 

[Nic64]

I've started doing this.

Any ****** who decides to pick Olimar on me will feel the full wrath of this tactic.

MK boards: we hate a *60:40 matchup so much we'd rather just plank for 8 minutes.

*being generous, MK probably wins by more than that.

 

[OverLade]

MK boards: we hate a *60:40 matchup so much we'd rather just plank for 8 minutes.

*being generous, MK probably wins by more than that.

Na we plank because we like doing it actually.

 

[Nic64]

The rest of us maybe, he specifically singled out Olimar

 

[earla]

is there any good setup for that bair fast fall first hit jab lock?

edit: wrong thread sorrry. delete

 

[Max Ketchum]

MK boards: we hate a *60:40 matchup so much we'd rather just plank for 8 minutes.

*being generous, MK probably wins by more than that.

lol

I hate that matchup a lot, that's all.

 

[MiniTroika]

So basically, we are discussing any character as of the moment? I have a few edge guard techniques to suggest to use on Snake as well as a few questions to ask regarding approaches.

At the edge, Snake is pretty much defenseless as most of his options are laggy. All the Snakes that I have fought have the habit of jumping over you and immediately fast falling to the ground. Well, seeing as Meta Knight's Up Tilt is severely underused, isn't it possible to use this as another to destroy Snake's attempt to recover to the stage from the edge?

Scenario:
x=Meta Knight/ Y= Snake

(This is us standing at the edge shielding, in order to mind game the player into thinking you'll grab after he ledge attacks)

--------------X-y

Snake will be forced to jump VVV


Y
--------------X

^^^This is when you abuse U-Tilts range and hitbox immediately after he jumps.

Basically, if you do it right, (the window of opportunity is big) you will halt his horizontal movement and he will be forced to remain in the air, where you take action in trying to get him off the stage again.

It's always good to have additional mix-ups on Snake. It works almost all the time they try to jump from the ledge. I will try to get some videos demonstrating it in action at Smashtoberfest

(The Y on the second part of the diagram is supposed to be diagonally to Meta's right/ Computer's messing up

 

[Max Ketchum]

I never see Snakes do this. They mostly ledge jump dair/C4, ledge hop air dodge, stand up, or get up attack, in my experience.

 

[MiniTroika]

Well that's why I shield. Because it tricks them into thinking that I'll punish the lag of any of their attacks and they jump instead. You have to hit them as they elevate from the ledge so that they can't hit you. You only drop the shield when they are in the air. Any of the options which you wrote can be shield grabbed or punished.

So far, it's worked pretty well against JonT and Mojoe. I don't fight Hall very often, so I'll try it out eventually.

 

[Max Ketchum]

I understand why it works, just saying that I never see Snakes empty jump onto the stage.