Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

[Sushi-Man]

Can we discuss Falco again pls?

Plank. Next character?

 

[Toronto Joe]

i hate long posts but i love absorbing information...swf needs a tl;dr button or something

 

[Cold Fusion]

Plank. Next character?

Plank every character.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Plank. Next character?

Planking's banned.

Floor's open to all kinds of discussion.

 

[Overswarm]

Planking might be banned in those SCRUB areas.

 

[Jupz]

Can we discuss toon link? Any tips/advice for versing him?

 

[True Romance]

Can we discuss toon link? Any tips/advice for versing him?

I concur, I know theoretically we're meant to be super agro and gimp as much as possible, but I've found good Tlinks barrage of projectiles can keep me on the back foot more then I'd like, and if they play smart at the edge with bombs it can be next to impossible to gimp them.

 

[Staco]

Dair is good to gimp Tink, if he needs Up B to come back to the edge.


Falco MU with edgegrab rule/planking banned.

 

[TKD]

Dair isn't "too good" to gimp Toon Link, I think you meant "good enough". How can a move be "too good" to do anything?

DEHF said Falco vs MK is even. M2K says Falco beats MK on neutrals and ***** him in Jungle Japes (which I say should be banned along with Rainbow Cruise).

 

[DMG]

I think MK players need to abuse certain things against Falco. I still don't see MK players maintaining a tight spacing and taking note of whenever Falco jumps to do a laser and then putting pressure on him before he lands, or abusing the range on moves like Ftilt and Dtilt.

 

[OverLade]

I played HRNUT's Falco in tournament yesterday (I lost a match on japes, I got clap trap spiked all 3 stocks) and I also played Seibriks MK with my Falco in friendlies. I think the matchup is extremely close to even.

Falco can basically force kill situations, and worst case, Falco can still kill MK at 150% with a fresh Utilt.

edit: @ Dmg: I think Falco has good mix up potential as far as MK putting pressure on his landing. He can airdodge (from which he can spotdodge quickly), use weak dair, lasers, or phantasm and cancel it before you hit the ground. If you guess right you get high reward but if you guess wrong you don't get much.

SH dair beats more of MKs poking moves at close range. SHairdodge behind to grab beats Ftilt.

 

[TKD]

DMG, I think Tyrant does his best to keep that tight spacing vs Falco.

 

[Nic64]

Planking might be banned in those SCRUB areas.

As well as not being banned everywhere, anywhere a ban is enforced via a ledge grab limit it would be extremely ineffective in preventing you from doing it to Falco.

 

[OverLade]

Lets discuss D3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bVjiJEaxM

^

 

[adumbrodeus]

Planking's banned.

Floor's open to all kinds of discussion.

Huh?


Planking is banned in Atlantic north, but under the SBR rules, it's not banned, it's part of the match-up.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Planking might be banned in those SCRUB areas.

Yeah, and your region allows Distant Planet and custom stages. lol... AN has the best ruleset by far.

As well as not being banned everywhere, anywhere a ban is enforced via a ledge grab limit it would be extremely ineffective in preventing you from doing it to Falco.

How so?

Huh?


Planking is banned in Atlantic north, but under the SBR rules, it's not banned, it's part of the match-up.

The SBR rules also allow ridiculous stages that almost every region opts to ban. Planking deserves a ban everywhere.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Lets discuss D3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bVjiJEaxM

^

DDD loses 65:35 or possibly worse. Seibrik is really good against tornado...like, abnormally good. o_O Dair is gay, and so is his grab range. Makes it hard to space tilts on his shield easily.

I'm pretty lost in the Falco matchup...Could just be my ****ty reaction time, but I have a lot of trouble with him.

 

[OverLade]

DDD loses 65:35 or possibly worse. Seibrik is really good against tornado...like, abnormally good. o_O Dair is gay, and so is his grab range. Makes it hard to space tilts on his shield easily.

I'm pretty lost in the Falco matchup...Could just be my ****ty reaction time, but I have a lot of trouble with him.

Notably I smash DI'd out of most of Seibriks Dairs. D3s options on the way down are almost useless if you read well or have good reactions. If you mix up correctly with tornado a lot of his moves become useless. And you can still bait Utilts with tornado and usually get alway if you decide to retreat with it. And he can't kill you. I think the matchup is about 65:35 at the highest level, but it becomes harder for MK the more mistakes you make. In general play I'd say about 60:40.

And I think Falco vs. MK really comes down to skill. There arent any gimmicks that seem to work or be guaranteed at all in the matchup. Within the realm of human reaction MK can't always be frame perfect in punishment etc. I used to have doubts but I feel the matchup is really even now and the only way to win is to outplay your opponent. If you're gonna fight him on the ground be mad safe, and be careful in the air with your spacing as falcos aerials rise quickly.

I'll have some videos of my falco vs. Seibriks MK up later.

 

[Max Ketchum]

I do extremely well in Falco vs. MK when I'm Falco, and suck at it in reverse. :/

Yeah, I do the same things against Atomsk (DIing out of dair/uair, using tornado properly, baiting utilts, etc). Dair is still gay because it can poke a shield at 100% strength, though, and does 17 damage if you don't get out of it. One thing Seibrik didn't do is camp the air a lot, which benefits DDD pretty well so long as he's careful about not wasting all his jumps and then getting Shuttle Looped. Up B OOS is good against bair, not so much vs. dair imo. Dair camping DDD is mildly risky, if they're super fast they can retreating fair out of shield to either hit MK or have both characters miss each other.

I'm pretty sure DDD is the only character that can shieldgrab fsmash without powershielding it, also. Just a nifty little gimmick he has.

 

[OverLade]

I do extremely well in Falco vs. MK when I'm Falco, and suck at it in reverse. :/

Yeah, I do the same things against Atomsk (DIing out of dair/uair, using tornado properly, baiting utilts, etc). Dair is still gay because it can poke a shield at 100% strength, though, and does 17 damage if you don't get out of it. One thing Seibrik didn't do is camp the air a lot, which benefits DDD pretty well so long as he's careful about not wasting all his jumps and then getting Shuttle Looped. Up B OOS is good against bair, not so much vs. dair imo. Dair camping DDD is mildly risky, if they're super fast they can retreating fair out of shield to either hit MK or have both characters miss each other.

I'm pretty sure DDD is the only character that can shieldgrab fsmash without powershielding it, also. Just a nifty little gimmick he has.

I can't imagine how camping in the air benefits Dedede at all. When Seibrik got into the air I simply baited his landing and reacted accordingly. You can also tornado him before he hits the ground (until he loses his jumps), THEN shuttle loop/nair him off the stage. (anyway I havent played Atomsk in months so he could do things I'm not taking into account).

When I dair camp D3 I just outspace him with retreating Dairs and if he fairs I can torando him before he touches the ground. Same thing with Bair. If you dair camp properly it basically can't be punished (I dont aim to hit the shield with the dairs, I mostly do it to create pressure wait for them to do something I can punish).

 

[Max Ketchum]

I dunno, I tend to have trouble against DDD when he's airborne because I like to try chasing and juggling him. I suppose that's a pretty stupid decision though, considering I could just do what you do and wait for him to fall back down, lol.

I haven't had the same degree of success with dair camping DDD, but it seems logical that that would work.

 

[DMG]

Framewise Halberd is correct, he isn't supposed to be able to punish it.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Alright DMG, thanks for clearing it up.

 

[OverLade]

I dunno, I tend to have trouble against DDD when he's airborne because I like to try chasing and juggling him. I suppose that's a pretty stupid decision though, considering I could just do what you do and wait for him to fall back down, lol.

I haven't had the same degree of success with dair camping DDD, but it seems logical that that would work.

Just wait for him on the ground. This was the first matchup I ever learned (from playing CO18 on wifi ), and I remember CO trying to aircamp me. If I wait on the ground I can punish his landing every single time. Dedede being in the air is almost as bad as him being off stage imo. D3 is can counter all of MKs approaches but it only takes one approach to take a stock vs. D3 if you keep momentum going.

If D3 can Fair you during your dair camping you're possibly not reacting fast enough or not spacing it correctly.

 

[Master Raven]

I don't think it's worse than 6-4 MK.

Unless I'm missing something.

 

[Staco]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOupA3cMeuc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdH7PkOwYJ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGD_UJPc_B4

Some new vids of the japanese: MK vs. DDD

I think the MK sometimes shows really good how to juggle/punish the DDD, when he is in the air above you.
Sometimes reacts very well to DDDs actions.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The SBR rules also allow ridiculous stages that almost every region opts to ban. Planking deserves a ban everywhere.

Debatable, there's plenty of threads for that, maybe you're just too liberal with your bans.


Regardless, post the correct ratio then a "no-planking" ratio with an asterisk, because the ban is widespread enough to be notable.

 

[Max Ketchum]

lol at "correct" ratio involving planking. It's banned wherever it counts, nobody includes it in matchup ratios.

 

[DMG]

Ok but define the line between "Matchup with Edge Camping" and "Matchup with Planking". One of the better things for MK to do is to fool around with the edge against Falco, regardless of whether he is gonna plank hardcore or not, and it obviously affects the matchup. If a region says "You absolutely cannot fool around with the edge like that", and another says "Yeah you can edgecamp a little but if I think you are planking, you get DQ'd", then the matchup realistically might be different for two people.

Part of the problem is that there isn't a "universal" anti planking rule. Some places use edge grab limits, others have TO discretion, others have a "honor" system, etc.

 

[Max Ketchum]

A mixture of TO discretion and a numerical limit are what I'd go by. Fooling around on the edge is okay, but nothing excessive. If MK has a 3% lead and there are 5 minutes on the clock, then he can't try to run the clock from there. If he's up 10-25% with a minute or two left, then I'd say it's acceptable.

 

[DMG]

That's my point though: people have different ideas about what to do. I think it's fairly reasonable to include a "Non Planking" and a "Planking" matchup considering that not every region has an anti planking rule, or the regions that do have different anti planking rules put in place. Now, if every region allowed Planking and people wanted two separate ratios, I would be against that. You shouldn't have two ratios based on how gay you decide to play (Well I could go all out and win 65:35, but if I hold back I can still make it 60:40. Things like that I am against even if it is clear that by holding back some you can still secure that matchup), but I think it would be reasonable to have two matchup ratios because a rule affects how gay you can legally play. I hope that makes sense, IDK how else to word it lol.

 

[Master Raven]

I get what you're saying, basically the ratios are divided between the degree of gayness allowed in a region haha

 

[DMG]

I get what you're saying, basically the ratios are divided between the degree of gayness allowed in a region haha

Yeah. Honestly if it weren't for that, I would be like screw that take the easy way out do one ratio based on ultimate super homo gayness beyond 10 on a scale of 1-5, but nope not every region is consistent in the big picture

 

[Max Ketchum]

I understand what you're saying. What I disagree with is adumbrodeus calling the ratio with planking "correct".

 

[adumbrodeus]

I understand what you're saying. What I disagree with is adumbrodeus calling the ratio with planking "correct".

The reason I say that it's "correct" is for the sake of consistency, while it serves also as a reference, match-up ratios are extremely useful in determining whether changes in the rulesets are needed (for example, if planking is banworthy).


However, the data will have no consistency if there is no standard ruleset, because obviously different rulesets produce very different rulesets.


Because this would be used to comment on the SBR ruleset, using it as the standard for match-ups, but adding additional ratios for deviations that are common enough to be useful is the optimal solution.


Because honestly, without some sort of outside standard, how can you determine what is the standard play, and therefore the standard conditions that ratios should be judged based on? Different people have very different ways of playing, all of which are believed to be the "best way of playing" by their users, and they generally assume that style for their match-up ratio.

That's my point though: people have different ideas about what to do. I think it's fairly reasonable to include a "Non Planking" and a "Planking" matchup considering that not every region has an anti planking rule, or the regions that do have different anti planking rules put in place. Now, if every region allowed Planking and people wanted two separate ratios, I would be against that. You shouldn't have two ratios based on how gay you decide to play (Well I could go all out and win 65:35, but if I hold back I can still make it 60:40. Things like that I am against even if it is clear that by holding back some you can still secure that matchup), but I think it would be reasonable to have two matchup ratios because a rule affects how gay you can legally play. I hope that makes sense, IDK how else to word it lol.

Same here, but unfortunately, you're correct.


Here's hoping that people will see the light and learn to just play gay.

 

[Max Ketchum]

The thing with the Falco matchup isn't a matter of choosing the level of gayness, though. It's a matter of an actual rule being in play that prevents that aspect of the matchup from happening.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The thing with the Falco matchup isn't a matter of choosing the level of gayness, though. It's a matter of an actual rule being in play that prevents that aspect of the matchup from happening.

I meant the TO's. I generally oppose the planking ban, not so much because I can't see it being broken, but simply because a large enough body of evidence hasn't surfaced to prove that it's broken.

Basically, people should plank more before it's banned.



Just to note, stalling really isn't the main issue for planking (though it is possible to be extremely safe with it). At least as far as the falco match-up is concerned, the bigger issue is the fact that will Falco can attack the edge, all of his options are bad at doing so, meaning that he's very unsafe when attacking the edge, allowing a smart MK player to avoid or beat his moves, turning a small advantage into a very large one once falco needs to approach.


It's pretty much exactly the way MK beats marth, albeit this actually functions better onstage for marth.

 

[OverLade]

The thing with the Falco matchup isn't a matter of choosing the level of gayness, though. It's a matter of an actual rule being in play that prevents that aspect of the matchup from happening.

Completely agreed. You either plank or you dont plank. Planking distinctly changes the mindset of both players, because their goals change. Falco suddenly needs to get a percent lead and MK needs to keep it. Otherwise MK is basically forced to approach or put himself in a potentially dangerous position.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I meant the TO's. I generally oppose the planking ban, not so much because I can't see it being broken, but simply because a large enough body of evidence hasn't surfaced to prove that it's broken.

Basically, people should plank more before it's banned.



Just to note, stalling really isn't the main issue for planking (though it is possible to be extremely safe with it). At least as far as the falco match-up is concerned, the bigger issue is the fact that will Falco can attack the edge, all of his options are bad at doing so, meaning that he's very unsafe when attacking the edge, allowing a smart MK player to avoid or beat his moves, turning a small advantage into a very large one once falco needs to approach.


It's pretty much exactly the way MK beats marth, albeit this actually functions better onstage for marth.

Couldn't you just test out each characters options against Planking to see if it's broken or not?

I mean if you were to lets say make a project where the SBR got some of the best mains of each character and tested it against some of the best Plankers.

Couldn't the results from that alone tell if the tech was broken or not?

 

[DMG]

I don't even have to look at frame data/compare options to know that over 2/3rds of the cast cannot be reasonably expected to stop planking or have a decent shot at stopping it. This includes Pit's Planking, G&W's Planking, and MK's planking (Marth can do it ok, but he is slightly more vulnerable to people jumping down and trying to interrupt in some way).

Now if you want, I can look into it deeper for characters that look more promising, and compare frame data and see what they can do, but honestly there are no characters out there that I think can 100% stop planking when done very well. MK himself is easily the best anti planking character, and I think he can either stop or put a lot of pressure on Pit and G&W when they plank. That and if MK gets the lead against those characters, he himself can go plank them back effectively. MK being able to stop another MK from planking is a more complex question.