Player-4
See you in 25 years
Thanks captain obvious
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Meta Knight Q&A Thread
- Thread starter Dojo
- Start date
Player-4
See you in 25 years
Lolwut? She can pressure your shield pretty hard.
if it's so obvious then why do you need help?
ZSS may as well not have a grab and all of her useable attacks fall into two categories: slow attacks with range and fast attacks without range. position yourself a certain distance away from her and she can't do anything you can't powershield on reaction
correct though, don't camp in your shield she actually can pressure that, hence why I said WAIT and then shield
ZSS may as well not have a grab and all of her useable attacks fall into two categories: slow attacks with range and fast attacks without range. position yourself a certain distance away from her and she can't do anything you can't powershield on reaction
correct though, don't camp in your shield she actually can pressure that, hence why I said WAIT and then shield
Player-4
See you in 25 years
It's obvious because that's all anyone says.
"Shield her stuff" but no one says what to do after >_>
"Shield her stuff" but no one says what to do after >_>
punish OOS? you're meta knight lol
what I am actually curious about in this MU is how do you guys deal with armor pieces? I feel like I have a strong advantage on ZSS after that but I'm not that good with items lol, I usually just kind of try to camp hardcore until they're gone...
what I am actually curious about in this MU is how do you guys deal with armor pieces? I feel like I have a strong advantage on ZSS after that but I'm not that good with items lol, I usually just kind of try to camp hardcore until they're gone...
Player-4
See you in 25 years
Armor pieces aren't too big of a deal, you can **** each other with them pretty much. I guess because I play against Diddys a lot I work on item control, so my main focus is just getting that 1 piece, hitting her with it then getting rid of the other pieces.
Also, if I'm busy shielding Side-B, I can't punish her OoS >_>
Also, if I'm busy shielding Side-B, I can't punish her OoS >_>
Actually, she can jab/tilt you if you try to do anything OoS after she hits it with Dsmash. Also, Meta Knight is better with items than ZSS. If you get ZSS off of the stage when you have an item piece and you use it to trap her, I'm pretty sure that she doesn't have any way to prevent you from gimping her.
As for what to do with ZSS' pressure on your shield, tilt/ grab her if she tries to Dsmash, shield if she tries to do anything else (other than grab). If she tries to Side-B after a Dsmash (it will probably shield poke you after a Dsmash), Froll on reaction of Side-B coming out. For her grab, it actually is pretty good while its hit box is out; I've been grabbed out of a short hop when I'm more than a retreating-Fair's distance away before (I read a dash attack and they grabbed instead). I can't really suggest spot dodging unless you hard read a grab, because her punish on a baited spot dodge is just so hard that you're often better off taking the grab than risking the alternative.
When you're returning to the stage after a juggle or near-KO, don't be afraid to fast-fall at ZSS and then jump>Dair away from the stage to dissuade her; your main goal is to make it so that you're below the stage (within Down-B distance of the ledge) with at least two jumps so that you can safely recover. When she's harassing you off of the ledge, you can react to all of her options. You can just fall out of her Fair/Nair/etc. distance and air dodge on reaction to any attempted Side-B. Don't just air dodge when she comes at you -- learn to react to the Side-B itself coming out. Don't bother trying to perfect shield Dsmash unless the ZSS player is being predictable with their charge times; if they charge it just a few frames longer than you're expecting them to, she can punish your whiffed attack with a kill move.
A good punish for Side-B on your shield (assuming that you're out of punishing range/at the tip) is to mix-up running at her (generally countered by Dtilt/dash attack/grab) and a running and rising Dair (counters Dtilt/dash attack/running forward). If you run at her and she attempts to Dsmash you, the aforementioned mix-up game after a Dsmash begins. If she does anything other than retreating, she is either open to a punish or is shielding, at which point you can begin pressuring her shield.
The main reason that some people say to just shield is that her best option against your shield will be to Dsmash which then leads into a mix-up game. In the mix-up, her counters against shield are to change the positioning (retreat/jump/etc.), grab (which is generally a large-risk, medium reward), Side-B (which it is necessary to react to), and Dsmash, which Meta Knight can generally punish on reaction (Up-B is the best for this and punishing Dsmash in general, because it has relatively little risk of whiffing, is frame safer due to frame 5 invincibility, and beats her non-positional/non-shielding options).
As far as armor pieces go, there are two relevant categories that I place my opponent in: Better than me at controlling the pieces and not better than me at controlling the pieces. Planking is the safest option for the former (it sacrifices initial stage control and is not a good option overall, however) and you want the armor pieces to quickly take the first stock of the latter type. The ZSS who is better than me with the armor pieces also goes into several sub-categories: Does or does not have a different style with armor pieces and does or does not know how to deal with air camping. These two groups are inter-related; of the several notable ZSS players I have experience with (Nick Riddle, HRNut, and D-Torr), only HRNut and D-Torr change their styles while they have armor piece(s), and between HRNut and D-Torr, only HRNut knows how to deal with air camping with armor pieces.
To explain how this is relevant to my point of them being inter-related, I will further explain D-Torr. D-Torr knows how to deal with air camping when the armor pieces are not present, but for whatever reason does not cope well with it while items are present. D-Torr handles items better than I do, however I ultimately choose to leave the pieces because I prefer facing him with how he deals with air camping. Normally he will patiently wait and either bait a Dair and punish with a Uair or attempt to punish my landing. When items are present however, he will wait and throw the items at me. When I catch an item and throw it up, he approaches. He does not approach because he has to, but because he wants the armor piece back and does not consciously recognize the pros and cons before he does so as he would without the pieces.
HRNut, on the other hand, will slowly approach with armor pieces by running forward and glide tossing the items vertically so that they are implicitly covering the zone that ZSS is weak to aerial zoning (watch a video of Marth vs. ZSS to understand what I'm talking about -- Meta Knight can use it as well) as well as covering his grounded zones with the standard ground mix-up. In addition to this, HRNut is very fluid with his punish game; he quickly follows up hits with throwing an armor piece to prevent me being in my favorite position to recover the momentim -- the ground , while pursuing me in the air. In addition to this, he is adept with aiming the armor pieces so that any poor DI will lead to death at mid-percents. This is the most difficult ZSS for me (personally) to face, and I find HRNut's ZSS to be substantially more difficult than Nick Riddle's.
Sorry for the unorganized post.
Steam
Smash Hero
what is MKs frame disadvantage for First hit of Dsmash on shield?
Crisis
Smash Ace
Best stage to take G&W? Brinstar? Delphino?
Albert.
Smash Master
MK can Froll ZSS's grab on reaction and then be in a position to punish with basically anything you want. (depending on the spacing, I like Nair cause you can get that oh-so-sweet full hit of nair)
n1ckRiddle told me the FRoll thing
fun fact: Snake's Utilt out speeds ZSS's grab on reaction.
n1ckRiddle told me the FRoll thing
fun fact: Snake's Utilt out speeds ZSS's grab on reaction.
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Take GW to Final Destination.
And Zamus' grab is garb anyways.
And Zamus' grab is garb anyways.
So I was directed here by yon poster up there...
I was curious about what exactly makes our counterpicks good o.o I mean I know they are Brinstar, RC, etc. etc., but what makes them so superior to other choices? I think knowing the why behind the decision would help me take advantage of the choices much better.
I was curious about what exactly makes our counterpicks good o.o I mean I know they are Brinstar, RC, etc. etc., but what makes them so superior to other choices? I think knowing the why behind the decision would help me take advantage of the choices much better.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Final Destination. G&W loses to MK because MK can completely shut him down with good ftilt, utilt, and upB usage. With FD, he has almost no room to mix up, and no hazards to force you into any bad position. Brinstar is actually one of the worst stages to take him to in this matchup. If the matchup is originally 65-35, then on FD, it's closer to 75-25. Preeeetty awful for G&W.
Orion*
Smash Researcher
and wow im late but LOL
originally 65/35 on what? >_>
god i hate ratios sometimes T.T
edit:
i prefer taking gaw to a non FD nuetral so people dont bust out that pocket diddy kong or w/e lmao
edit: grump its all very subjective, a lot based on theory craft and character tools, and sometimes a lot of just general experience. just pick someplace you are comfortable and no matter what itll work out lmao
random thing I actually just noticed looking through my docs, I forgot I listed the startup for these for reference lol, these are all of your practical OOS options
ftilt OOS(10)
dtilt OOS(10)
dsmash OOS(12)
dash attack OOS(12)
usmash OOS(8)
nair OOS(8)
dair OOS(9)
fair OOS(11)
uair OOS(7)
grab(6)
dash grab(15)
shuttle loop, reverse shuttle loop(8, invincible 5-8)
you can use this thread as a resource to find out most of what is punishable, just plug in numbers. in this case you're looking for a number less than 12
ftilt OOS(10)
dtilt OOS(10)
dsmash OOS(12)
dash attack OOS(12)
usmash OOS(8)
nair OOS(8)
dair OOS(9)
fair OOS(11)
uair OOS(7)
grab(6)
dash grab(15)
shuttle loop, reverse shuttle loop(8, invincible 5-8)
you can use this thread as a resource to find out most of what is punishable, just plug in numbers. in this case you're looking for a number less than 12
thanks. that's extremely helpful
i'm actually not really good at reading frame data. i'm thinking about just making an MK Maximum Punish guide for my reference but i guess for the boards' reference as well
i'm actually not really good at reading frame data. i'm thinking about just making an MK Maximum Punish guide for my reference but i guess for the boards' reference as well
I too hate GAW's insane upB recovery speed. Makes things a tad difficult 
I would guess in that situation, you may want to try an OOS SH Uair and delay your "OOS"ness a tad bit. The uair comes out pretty quickly, giving you more in-shield time to protect yourself from the second key hit. The Uair would hopefully catch him on his way up (or chain together several Uair+SHs if you find he rises too fast/soon) so he'll at least be slightly punished?
I would guess in that situation, you may want to try an OOS SH Uair and delay your "OOS"ness a tad bit. The uair comes out pretty quickly, giving you more in-shield time to protect yourself from the second key hit. The Uair would hopefully catch him on his way up (or chain together several Uair+SHs if you find he rises too fast/soon) so he'll at least be slightly punished?
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Nope. IIRC it has a slight disadvantage on hit...
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
You're just making up numbers. 75-25 on FD? Do you mean 60-40?
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Yeah I'm making up numbers. But how the hell does MK LOSE to G&W on FD?
Player-4
See you in 25 years
Lmao seriously. MK having a 75-25 advantage on GW on FD, gimme a break >.>
and yet he'll tell you that you don't know about stages and that only him and raziek really understand
Player-4
See you in 25 years
Lylat is actually a very good stage for Meta Knight, it's just that it's better for certain other characters (Snake, Olimar, etc. -- characters who aren't sensitive to ledge grabbing, have an auto-snap/tether, etc.). I like taking Peach there in particular because of her sensitive recovery.
Player-4
See you in 25 years
I hate Lylat personally, but tried CPing it against a ZSS for that very recovery reason.
Personally it's SV > BF > FD > Lylat > YI
Personally it's SV > BF > FD > Lylat > YI
Lylat is a very good ZSS stage. Platform cancel mix-ups on juggles are amazing.
Player-4
See you in 25 years
Albert.
Smash Master
Didn't vinnie JUST take m2k to game 3?
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
I'd go SV>YI>BF>PS1>FD. I hate FD. >.> But what makes SV better than FD for the G&W matchup?