Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

but what exactly is wrong with a character dominating the game and winning 90% of the tournaments?

Oh, I don't know....how does a Top 8 of nothing but Mk mains, pocket MKs, or MK seconds sound? I mean that must be so awesome. I mean did you see Tekken 6 for evo? It was nothing but Bobs and Laws. You honestly think that makes the game look good or is fun to watch? You must be a Phoenix player good sir.

 

[zmx]

BC25 lol the counter is not a good move at all. 95% of the time the risk is NOT worth the reward (especially lucarios). It leaves you wide open for grabs and other punishes. There are a few rare instances in the game where it's guarenteed to work if you time it right (such as countering a recovering Pikachu/Lugigi side B) but that's about it. So that's a terrible reason for MK not being banned.

However I am anti-ban myself. People need to stop pulling stats from nowhere. Seriously I want proof that he dominates 60% of the top tourny results. Solid evidence, not "we have the data but can't show you srry" as the URC loves to pull. And don't even bother attempting to show Meta Knight consists of all top 8 in most tournys because I already know that's false.

Considering that MK doesn't even win all tournys (including Apex) this kind of justification for his ban goes out the window.

Planking of course is solved with an even lower ledge grab limit for MK.

So those two reasons hold no water.

The only viable reason I have heard thus far for his ban is that it will make the game more entertaining and help develop the meta game for other characters. I agree with this but I'm still not sure if this truly justifies his ban.

Edit: BC25 might have had no idea what he was talking about but that doesn't mean the rest of you can act superior for illogical reasons. Being Austrailian or being new here has nothing to do with who's right and who's wrong. Speaking of other parts of the world, last I checked, Euro and Japan haven't banned MK. I know NA players will say it's because the best MKs are in NA but even this you'll find hard to prove.

 

[Thino]

Oh, I don't know....how does a Top 8 of nothing but Mk mains, pocket MKs, or MK seconds sound? I mean that must be so awesome. I mean did you see Tekken 6 for evo? It was nothing but Bobs and Laws. You honestly think that makes the game look good or is fun to watch? You must be a Phoenix player good sir.

I actually play Amaterasu/Chun/Felicia

yes it doesn't look good and yes it is boring to watch , both for Tekken Evo and Brawl BUT I think competitiveness and making the game look good to spectators are 2 different things

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

but what exactly is wrong with a character dominating the game and winning 90% of the tournaments?

I actually play Amaterasu/Chun/Felicia

yes it doesn't look good and yes it is boring to watch , both for Tekken Evo and Brawl BUT I think competitiveness and making the game look good to spectators are 2 different things

Well for starters....I would give Chun the swift boot out of your team and replace her with someone like Dante, Deadpool, or Hulk. Fefe and Ammy is a good pair. Yuo should try Morry and Ammy.

And can you explain your point a little more?

 

[Conviction]

Flog means to beat with a staff or whip I believe.

Slang doesn't care about your carefully defined words, Judo.

Idk, why I can't stop laughing at this.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

However I am anti-ban myself. People need to stop pulling stats from nowhere. Seriously I want proof that he dominates 60% of the top tourny results. Solid evidence, not "we have the data but can't show you srry" as the URC loves to pull. And don't even bother attempting to show Meta Knight consists of all top 8 in most tournys because I already know that's false.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=295425

I wish they just were pulling it out of their ***** too, but the data is there, and the methodology is sound.

 

[Reizilla]

Ankoku's data was better. Pot distribution is ridiculous.

 

[Doc King]

but what exactly is wrong with a character dominating the game and winning 90% of the tournaments?

It makes the game extemely unbalanced and it ruins the other characters metagames in Brawl.

 

[Thino]

Well for starters....I would give Chun the swift boot out of your team and replace her with someone like Dante, Deadpool, or Hulk. Fefe and Ammy is a good pair. Yuo should try Morry and Ammy.

And can you explain your point a little more?

yes I've actually considered Deadpool and Morrigan, and practicing with them when I get the time.

Well to try to detail my point, I believe that when a game is played competitively, the metagame should evolve naturally (aka players finding new tricks, getting better at various MUs etc..) and not being forced regardless of the domination of one or several characters on the games or rules made to make the game balanced ( LGL, stage counterpick, timer in Brawl's case)

It makes the game extemely unbalanced and it ruins the other characters metagames in Brawl.

well IF the game is unbalanced, then it is unbalanced period, why force it and try so hard to make it balanced when it's not?

if the metagame for other characters has to be focused on how to deal with MK then so it should be, too bad if they lose to other characters because of it if MK is dominating and tournament players have more chance to fight MK than other characters in tournaments

What is with this obsession of making the metagame evolve, and not letting it go on its own?

 

[Chuee]

Guys that Lucario may have sounded stupid, but he was technically right.
Lucario and Marth can 'counter' MK with their down-b's.

 

[Conviction]

Shut up, you flog.

 

[army man]

but you can counter counter with a grab

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

yes I've actually considered Deadpool and Morrigan, and practicing with them when I get the time.

Well to try to detail my point, I believe that when a game is played competitively, the metagame should evolve naturally (aka players finding new tricks, getting better at various MUs etc..) and not being forced regardless of the domination of one or several characters on the games or rules made to make the game balanced ( LGL, stage counterpick, timer in Brawl's case)

That is very true. You can compare this to what happen to MvC3. The game die before people found ways to stop Phoenix.

 

[Black Mantis]

And then capcom drops umvc 3 next month

 

[John12346]

I'm pretty sure there would be little to no support for a MK ban if Brawl actually received updates with balance patches/new characters... >____>;

I know I'd be anti-ban, to say the least.

 

[Thino]

I'm pretty sure there would be little to no support for a MK ban if Brawl actually received updates with balance patches/new characters... >____>;

I know I'd be anti-ban, to say the least.

The difference is the time it will take to get a new installment of Smash Bros tbh as opposed to actual patches like in other games.

 

[da K.I.D.]

What is with this obsession of making the metagame evolve, and not letting it go on its own?

and what exactly do you think has been happening since march of 2008?

That is very true. You can compare this to what happen to MvC3. The game die before people found ways to stop Phoenix.

you sir, need to watch some clockwork videos. that dude eats phoenixes for breakfast lunch, dinner, AND taco bell fourth meal. as a matter of fact, im about to hop on the devastation stream in like 20 minutes

The difference is the time it will take to get a new installment of Smash Bros tbh as opposed to actual patches like in other games.

i wish nintendo at least showed some appreciation to the people who play this game the most.

 

[stingers]

Nintendo is a sinking ship at this rate anyway lol, everyone knows they don't really evolve like most companies do. It'll take competitive gaming getting big in general before they even thought about it, the best way for that to happen is to support the sf4, mvc3, and sfxt scenes.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Nintendo is a sinking ship at this rate anyway lol, everyone knows they don't really evolve like most companies do. It'll take competitive gaming getting big in general before they even thought about it, the best way for that to happen is to support the sf4, mvc3, and sfxt scenes.

Nintendo is kinda leading the market. Hard. Just sayin'.

 

[Eddie G]

Nintendo is kinda leading the market. Hard. Just sayin'.

With their Zumba dance doohickies and their Wii exercise board shenanigans that appease the casual masses. It's brilliant from a marketing perspective, but from mine personally it's kind of sad when a company basically resorts to that for their long-term survival.

I sure hope the flakiness of casual consumers shines through at some point and Nintendo gets a massive ****ing from their abuse of that sales tactic. On the other hand...we have shooters, shooters galore...

I miss the old J-RPG/original title boom of the 90s, and the lack of platformers we have today for that matter (Jak 1/2/3, Crash Bandicoot, Spyro, etc.). Those games all had a certain charm to them.

 

[Conviction]

LOL this ***** said doohickies.

On a more serious note, if the spark of 90's came back I'd be happy.

Ninja'd by live edit. Damn it Beef.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

With their Zumba dance doohickies and their Wii exercise board shenanigans that appease the casual masses. It's brilliant from a marketing perspective, but from mine personally it's kind of sad when a company basically resorts to that for their long-term survival.

I sure hope the flakiness of casual consumers shines through at some point and Nintendo gets a massive ****ing from their abuse of that sales tactic. On the other hand...we have shooters, shooters galore...

I miss the old J-RPG/original title boom of the 90s, and the lack of platformers we have today for that matter (Jak 1/2/3, Crash Bandicoot, Spyro, etc.). Those games all had a certain charm to them.

Oh, I agree 100%. But at the same time, remember that they're still bringing out great games for the core crowd. It's just not their focus, because we aren't as profitable as the casuals, lol.

 

[Eddie G]

Very true. I suppose I've just been spoiled by the over-abundance of selection that we used to have, haha.

 

[Reizilla]

Needs more Golden Sun is what it needs.

 

[Conviction]

Needs better Sonic games like the Sonic Adventure series.

 

[Fierce Deku]

All you pro-down-B-counter people, let's not forget that Jigs' up B can put MK to sleep. We should use that more. Also the Gale Boomerang can push him around on its way back to Link. And Ganondorf's Falcon Punch is really powerful. Just saying.

This post is entirely correct , but only for what it covers, you did well mentioning in the last paragraph Whether you're pro-ban, or anti-ban but with a bunch of rules to limit MK because there is also a part of the anti-bans that don't necessarily think additional rules are required to stop MK's dominance and that do not think tournaments are being set on fire at all.

Indeed, I didn't address that point of view, so here goes: How dominant a character has to be for it to be a "bad thing" will of course be somewhat subjective, but one objective argument that MK is indeed a problem would be if the game is less fun/if the community will still grow. We've all heard of people ditching brawl because they're sick of MK being the principal concern in the metagame. Opinion on banning aside, you just can't get away from him (ironic since he can easily get away from you). But if the community is suffering because of MK, he needs to be booted so that the community can grow, the metagame can diversify, and people can keep enjoying the game. The polls and such are in support of a ban, and I think at this point it's just better for the health of the community. Some people will be angry about it, maybe a few will even leave, but from what I've heard, I think it's far better than the hit the community would continue to take from MK staying around.

Random Ike Guy, is that you?

No. Ike is too slow for my taste

BC25 lol the counter is not a good move at all. 95% of the time the risk is NOT worth the reward (especially lucarios). It leaves you wide open for grabs and other punishes. There are a few rare instances in the game where it's guarenteed to work if you time it right (such as countering a recovering Pikachu/Lugigi side B) but that's about it. So that's a terrible reason for MK not being banned.

Sorry if I come off as a smart-a here, but wasn't the counter thing a joke form the beginning?

Considering that MK doesn't even win all tournys (including Apex) this kind of justification for his ban goes out the window.

Not really, no. If MKs (including secondaries and random pocket MKs) take a large portion of the top spots, the justification is still there. Sure it's not as strong as if MK were to literally take every money position in every tournament, but it's a range of values. The argument doesn't go in or out of any windows because a few tourneys are/are not taken by MK.

Planking of course is solved with an even lower ledge grab limit for MK.

A lower LGL isn't a bad idea, but these kinds of rules are partial solutions to the bigger MK problem, and most require a big logistical pain (like with counting LGs) or screwing with rules that affect other characters (basing the stage list on MK). These types of rules may make MK win less, but when you think about it his presence is still dominating the metagame just as much, or even more in some cases (like with an MK tailored stage list affecting matches with no MK even present). Also, and I probably don't have the experience to comment on this, but can't MK still run away to an excessive degree even without grabbing ledges constantly?

The only viable reason I have heard thus far for his ban is that it will make the game more entertaining and help develop the meta game for other characters. I agree with this but I'm still not sure if this truly justifies his ban.

Remember that enjoyment and metagame diversity/growth are a big deal to the health of the community. Everybody will have their own opinion on what we should and shouldn't do, but we should all remember that fun and an interesting metagame are not to be taken lightly, that's what this whole community is built on.

Speaking of other parts of the world, last I checked, Euro and Japan haven't banned MK. I know NA players will say it's because the best MKs are in NA but even this you'll find hard to prove.

If MK is not a problem in Europe or Australia or Japan or Orange Ocean or wherever, then of course all those places aren't going to ban him. Lack of a ban decision in other regions doesn't affect how much of a problem he is in North America. If someone can take some sort of anti-ban reasoning or anti-MK tactics from another region and apply it to NA, that'd be awesome. But the argument that one region should ignore a clear and present problem for no deeper reason than the fact that other regions aren't having said problem just makes no sense.

I should have realized this post was getting long by the fact that I've had to log in three separate times while writing it because of login timeouts...

 

[ElDominio]

Oh, I agree 100%. But at the same time, remember that they're still bringing out great games for the core crowd. It's just not their focus, because we aren't as profitable as the casuals, lol.

To some people talking about Nintendo and their lead and stuff

http://www.the-ghetto.org/content/the-decline-of-console-video-games-is-upon-us
Please read....
It's sad really

 

[Fuujin]

With their Zumba dance doohickies and their Wii exercise board shenanigans that appease the casual masses. It's brilliant from a marketing perspective, but from mine personally it's kind of sad when a company basically resorts to that for their long-term survival.

I sure hope the flakiness of casual consumers shines through at some point and Nintendo gets a massive ****ing from their abuse of that sales tactic. On the other hand...we have shooters, shooters galore...

I miss the old J-RPG/original title boom of the 90s, and the lack of platformers we have today for that matter (Jak 1/2/3, Crash Bandicoot, Spyro, etc.). Those games all had a certain charm to them.

Go play Dark Souls.
A couple of hours at that and you'll be wishing it was a casual game.

 

[eighteenspikes]

Go play Dark Souls.
A couple of hours at that and you'll be wishing it was a casual game.

Haha you've never played a King's Field game have you?

 

[TWF Sun Wukong]

at last i'm finally rid of that cheater!!

 

[GwJ]

at last i'm finally rid of that cheater!!

You signed up just to say that?

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

does anyone find it shocking none of the backroom guys show up?

 

[GwJ]

They're busy eating popcorn.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

as they read this thread....

 

[Thino]

and what exactly do you think has been happening since march of 2008?

I do admit I'm reacting late on this one.

I guess I was just expecting it to be like the 64 and Melee side, where the only things that was done was pretty eliminating randomness to balance the game out.

I could deal with it because I told myself "yea items and some stages are too random, people need to have control of what they do as soon as money is involved"

but eliminating a character with domination and overcentralization as a cause?

I just don't get it personally, unless the TOs that voted for this tell me they did because they are bored of seeing MK winning all their tourneys, they want more character diversity at their tourney or that they want more attendance at their tourneys because most of the people don't like dealing with MK

In which case in my eyes, people enforcing and using this Unity Ruleset are people who DO want to have some fun and diversity while playing the game competitively, as opposed to playing the game FULLY competitively, which is not even necessarily a bad thing.

It switches from "Play to win" to "Play to win with a non S tier character" to me.

BUT.. it's not actually that much of a big deal since it will be only tournaments that use the Unity Ruleset and only in U.S and Canada, so it's just a part of the community that will play this way.

i wish nintendo at least showed some appreciation to the people who play this game the most.

Since about 2006, with the release of the Wii , Nintendo proved to us that they are just like any other company and maybe even more : they are focusing on profit.

but I do think they have something against DLC, which IMO would work out greatly when it comes to benefits from a game that has been already released.

Welp , only future will tell..

Indeed, I didn't address that point of view, so here goes: How dominant a character has to be for it to be a "bad thing" will of course be somewhat subjective, but one objective argument that MK is indeed a problem would be if the game is less fun/if the community will still grow. We've all heard of people ditching brawl because they're sick of MK being the principal concern in the metagame. Opinion on banning aside, you just can't get away from him (ironic since he can easily get away from you). But if the community is suffering because of MK, he needs to be booted so that the community can grow, the metagame can diversify, and people can keep enjoying the game. The polls and such are in support of a ban, and I think at this point it's just better for the health of the community. Some people will be angry about it, maybe a few will even leave, but from what I've heard, I think it's far better than the hit the community would continue to take from MK staying around.

You know, to be sincerely honest with you, the reason I'm anti-ban isn't the ban itself, I live outside of America for now so I'm not even affected, plus it proves they're still a lot of people that still play this game for fun and want to have fun watching it, which is extremely fine, even though LESS competitive.

I just think the way this ban is presented to the public is not being honest.

In my opinion they were 2 good ways for this to be done :

1) MK is indeed broken.

in which case the BBR or URC, whichever is considered authority, presents to the community the data proving why MK is broken, including ledgegrab statistics, stage statistics, options against other characters, ETC...
They put it in the first post in this thread so that we all know WHY MK is broken , therefore banned.

2) MK is top tier. MK is disliked by the community. People don't wanna deal with MK. People don't wanna see MK winning tournament.

In which case it is a community decision.
Let the community decide, whatever their knowledge about the game is, let them vote in a HUGE poll 'Want MK banned? Yes/No" or let them vote for people that will represent them.
Organize it.
The community or people that represent the community vote, MK gets banned. fine, the community decided so.

But TOs voting? At least they should tell us that people don't like MK being at their tourney, people boo MK planking, and that banning MK would raise attendance

NOT because he's dominating and winning all the tournaments because that's normal that's what top tiers do, so I find this to be a bull**** reason

This is why I'm anti-ban.

 

[SKidd]

herpa derpa derp

 

[-LzR-]

My thoughts exactly

 

[Akaku94]

1) MK is indeed broken.

in which case the BBR or URC, whichever is considered authority, presents to the community the data proving why MK is broken, including ledgegrab statistics, stage statistics, options against other characters, ETC...
They put it in the first post in this thread so that we all know WHY MK is broken , therefore banned

They Did!

2) MK is top tier. MK is disliked by the community. People don't wanna deal with MK. People don't wanna see MK winning tournament.

In which case it is a community decision.
Let the community decide, whatever their knowledge about the game is, let them vote in a HUGE poll 'Want MK banned? Yes/No" or let them vote for people that will represent them.
Organize it.
The community or people that represent the community vote, MK gets banned. fine, the community decided so.

The community voted 75% for a ban multiple times. If they hadn't, the URC wouldn't have even considered banning.

 

[Thino]

They Did!

Where is this data in the first post then? I'm not asking about prevalence of MK if it's what you are talking about

The community voted 75% for a ban multiple times. If they hadn't, the URC wouldn't have even considered banning.

Well that is exactly what I'm asking for them to display then, and not just the 14-0-1 vote Alphazealot mentioned

 

[Overswarm]

Go play Dark Souls.
A couple of hours at that and you'll be wishing it was a casual game.

So, so fun.