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it does, to an extent; under 18% (IIRC) you can mash out of a grab before Nana can be properly desynced, even higher if Nana isn't close to Popo. however, it is still worth mentioning solo popo chaingrabs.
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Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]
- Thread starter worldjem7
- Start date
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
When was that?
Nintendude
Smash Hero
Just to add on, to scale a matchup with that interpretation to a 1-10 ratio, multiply by 10 and divide by total stocks.
For example, if you say that for every 6 stocks Fox takes, Sheik takes 5:
6*10/11 = 5.45
5*10/11 = 4.55
which basically translates to 55-45 (or 5-5 if you round it)
Yes, this can get tricky when you take counterpicks into effect, but a mathematical way of solving it is making a stock ratio for all neutrals/counterpicks and then do a weighted average with probabilities of a stage being picked (some guesswork would have to happen but educated guesses can be made, for example Peach counterpicking Mute City). Of course this is overly complicated, but I believe I offer an almost purely mathematical approach to matchup ratios that keeps the chart in its current format.
For example, if you say that for every 6 stocks Fox takes, Sheik takes 5:
6*10/11 = 5.45
5*10/11 = 4.55
which basically translates to 55-45 (or 5-5 if you round it)
Yes, this can get tricky when you take counterpicks into effect, but a mathematical way of solving it is making a stock ratio for all neutrals/counterpicks and then do a weighted average with probabilities of a stage being picked (some guesswork would have to happen but educated guesses can be made, for example Peach counterpicking Mute City). Of course this is overly complicated, but I believe I offer an almost purely mathematical approach to matchup ratios that keeps the chart in its current format.
SDC
Smash Lord
I'll try to help.
The matchup between mew2 and falco is not a good one for mew2. Yes mew2 has combo and gimp opportunities and abilities, but a smart falco will make his life miserable.
Falco's lasers throw off mew2's wavedashing game, forcing you to do a combination of: sh teleport shield through them, waveshield through them, and try to power shield them as they come at you. Falco's shufflegame is somewhat easier to shieldgrab then fox's, but it's still not a cakewalk. If the falco doesn't space His shuffles, mew2 has a dec window for a grab. from there it's up throw immediately. The best way for the falco to DI that is toward mew2's back, forcing mew2 to turn and then jump shadowclaw combo. Once you are inside the shadowclaw combo, you have two choices: DI away or mix up the DI, some away, some toward. You probably don't want to DI toward the mew2, as that just lets you get reverse shadowclawed, and makes you a closer tech chase target once you hit the ground. DI away from mew2, but be wary about going off the edge: Mewtwo has a decent edgeguard game on falco.
1. Mew2 can teleport onto the ledge, and wait for either an upb or a illusion above stage. If an up b, then mew2 might have a shot at second jump bairing before falco's up b shoots him off. If an illusion up onto the stage, then mew2 will probably second jump nair the falco, sending him back off the stage again. This repeats until falco either recovers or mew2 gets the gimp.
2. Mew2 sits on the stage, waiting to see what falco will do. If falco tries to up b or illusion for the edge, mew2 will try to dsmash it. If successful, it is a near guaranteed gimp. If falco tries to illusion/up b toward mew2, then mew2 can either fsmash, ftilt, nair, shadowball, etc.
Mewtwo will have his shield up alot in this battle, so falco's goal is to punish and beat down the shield. Once the shield is beaten low enough, falco's dair shine combos will happen very easily. Mew2 is a big target, and falco's dair is a very large hitbox lol.
Mewtwo is not easy to gimp, as teleport will take him through/past falco's dair/fsmash/dsmash. The key here is to threaten to dair his second jump, forcing the mew2 to do his second jump farther away from the stage, and now it comes down to reading where he will teleport. If he tries to teleport onto the stage, then fsmash/dashgrab/bair, and if he tries to teleport to the ledge, then dsmash/dair.
You don't want to get hit by mew2's ftilt close to the edge, if sweetspotted it might take falco out of his up b range to recover. Mix up your recovery and you should be fine, alot of mew2's edgeguards on falco will come from reads, and if you throw off his reads then he should have a hard time gimping you. When recovering, don't up b too close to the stage, as that makes you easy bair fodder, and that will gimp you.
In conclusion, mew2 is a big floaty wavedashing shield, and you need to punch through that to get to him, if the mew2 gets predictable with his shield then dashgrab when close. Mew2 should be trying to mix up shield with wavedash dtilt/grab, so keep those lasers coming fast, to mess up his wavedashes. Once your lasers/spaced ariels eat through his shield there isn't a whole lot he can do to stop you, unless he catches you with a grab or a dtilt.
KO:
Falco has a number of KO moves on mew2, fsmash, dtilt, dsmash, bair, dair gimp, upsmash (if you have to choose between upsmash and fsmash, i'd actually choose fsmash, falco's fsmash seems more effective against me : /). basically something that KOs will KO mewtwo lol.
Mewtwo is limited, as his upthrow, fair, upsmash (lol) will only KO at ridiculously high percentages. His fsmash is laughable and is only used as a edgeguard, but it is his dsmash, ftilt, gimping bair, and surprisingly a sweetspotted diagonal uair sometimes does the trick. If mewtwo grabs you at high percent, don't deceive yourself into thinking upthrow, because it will be backthrow. backthrow is an excellent way for mew2 to start an edgeguard opportunity on falco (you don't know how many KOs I've gotten from people thinking I'm going to upthrow them, so when I backthrow them they DI wrong and put themselves out of recovering range).
That's about it, if I missed anything, or if I'm way off then someone correct me, yeah it's long but I'm bored right now and didn't mind typing out all this crap. Hope it helps : /
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
Thanks sean, I appreciate it.
Another thing I didn't mention that I see a lot of Peaches doing is floating above their opponent and using dair to hit shields. Doing this once makes it really easy to fc nair > dsmash on both popo and nana as it breaks down their shield a bit. Also, I'm assuming when Peach is high and / or returning to the stage, ICs can't just double jump into a uair on Peach if she floats with a dair. I think I've seen a spacies (or Falcon, I can't remember) main trying to do this to Light and Peach's dair priority seemed to go right through the attack.
Europhoria
Smash Lord
I remember when Kirbykaze used to main ICs. Man ICs are a terrible character lol
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
I always thought, and still think, that ICs should be put in middle tier. =X
I don't think they are good enough to be in the same tier as Jiggs, Peach, and Falcon, nor do they have the tourney placings and players to match...but whatever.
I don't think they are good enough to be in the same tier as Jiggs, Peach, and Falcon, nor do they have the tourney placings and players to match...but whatever.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
No, it's not. Interpretation is part of the format; if you don't understand the format, you'll interpret it as you have been the entire time. Ignored.
Not only that, but you STILL got it wrong. It's not a "best of 10" it's just "2 characters play 10 games" and you see who would win the most.
I don't care if he has an opinion. He should send it directly to me instead of posting it here. This thread is for match-up discussion for the completion of the chart, not the debate over what people "think" the match-up chart is about.
Besides, Americans are one to talk about monopolizing everything, Canada deserves the spot light as much as America does.
It clearly states on the first post what you have to do if you have a problem with the format, interpretation or otherwise.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
I made it public because I wanted input from everyone here. Simple.
I could care less that you ignored me. Everyone else here will still read what I have to say and you haven't really listened to a single thing I've said in this thread ever since it started (including my opinions on matchups). I'll keep on posting and get input from the other people discussing this stuff - people way more valuable to this thread than the compiler who needs to take a chill pill.
I have a feeling you'll be really tempted to hit that "view post" button as well
Also, by "best of 10" I actually did mean play 10 games. It looks like you are just too frustrated and aloof to make a valid opinion on my proposal.
I could care less that you ignored me. Everyone else here will still read what I have to say and you haven't really listened to a single thing I've said in this thread ever since it started (including my opinions on matchups). I'll keep on posting and get input from the other people discussing this stuff - people way more valuable to this thread than the compiler who needs to take a chill pill.
I have a feeling you'll be really tempted to hit that "view post" button as well
Also, by "best of 10" I actually did mean play 10 games. It looks like you are just too frustrated and aloof to make a valid opinion on my proposal.
It doesn't matter what everyone else thinks, though. The only mind you have to change is mine, and if you want to do that, PM me or talk to me on AIM. This is why I'm frustrated, because people are completely disregarding the first post and just doing what they want.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
can we get to matchup discussion please?
on a slightly related note, just out of curiosity, will the chart ever take counterpicks into account? or wil lthere be a seperate chart/thread for discussing counterpick matchups?
i wanna know because some chars get big boosts in many matchups from counterpicks (jiggs, peach, fox?) and some dont really change (falco falcon)
i'd be interested in eventually discussing how matchups play out considering counterpicking stages,.
on a slightly related note, just out of curiosity, will the chart ever take counterpicks into account? or wil lthere be a seperate chart/thread for discussing counterpick matchups?
i wanna know because some chars get big boosts in many matchups from counterpicks (jiggs, peach, fox?) and some dont really change (falco falcon)
i'd be interested in eventually discussing how matchups play out considering counterpicking stages,.
N64
Smash Champion
But....he doesn't.
Falco v. Pika:
Putting this matchup at 4 kind of baffles me. Falco is difficult for pika. There is literally not much you can do about lasers, except try to jump over them and then you're limited to relatively predictable aerial approaches. Pikachu is a mobile character and often relies on his ability to outmaneauver the opponent, to bait approaches and chip away with quick hit and run combos. Falco's big thing is lasering to make characters relatively immobile, and he does it well, so pika loses a huge part of his game. Pika is also combo bait for falco, and given how close pika has to be to falco before he can do anything, getting that initial shine in to start the pillaring isn't horribly difficult. Pika's tech is also horribly slow, so Falcos can very often dair you into the stage and then just watch your tech. If you standing tech he can grab or dsmash/dtilt. If you techroll there's plenty of time for him to watch and then fsmash you. And you're pikachu, so that really hurts.
Yeah, you have gimps on falco and if he makes a mistake near the edge it can cost him his stock, but honestly falco doesn't have to approach you if he doesn't want to and just has so much control over space that pikachu has trouble doing much of anything most of the time.
Link vs. Pika:
Link has a lot of priority and decent reach. Pika has a lot of mobility and flexibility in options. Given both their strengths, the matchup turns out to be rather even. Similar to Falco (but not nearly as drastic), Link can control space pretty well with bombs and boomerangs, making it difficult for pika to enjoy his mobility. Link's nair is also reeeeally good, especially against pika as it prevents you from trying to shffl aerials into him, and it can be alright at breaking pika's aerial combos. Uair also makes it essentially impossible to attack link from above, to you're often limited to fighting link on the ground (which he's slightly better at) or trying to get under him.
Pika holds his own though. Link's projectiles don't hinder you toooo much, and it can be relatively easy to pressure link (just watch out for upB out of shield). Pika combos link alright, and has a few tools for edgeguarding link (notably jolting his hookshot attempt or just jumping out and nair/dairing him away regardless of how long he stalls before jumping, using your long recovery to make it back). Fighting link on ground can be difficult, but uair can pop him up and links options deplete to ff nair or dair against you (which you can bair and punish). Overall, it really feels about even.
Young Link vs. Pika:
Pretty identical to link except his recovery is a little worse, his dsmash is a lot better, this projectile game is a little more annoying, and all of his moves have like half the reach. Also upB is no longer scary. Pika has an easier time gimping y.link too.
john!
Smash Hero
Man, I don't want to post in this thread anymore. The amount of preconceived bias and lack of reasoning is ridiculous. The first two replies I get are, in full, "Your opinion is now invalid." and "What are you talking about?", then some crap about spacing FC aerials against one (two) of the most agile characters in the game. Really guys? I guess the fact that I play Peach isn't important because my post count isn't bloated...
I still say we need to consult the pros instead of everybody chipping in their scrubby opinions and getting nowhere. I will give this chart more credibility if it comes from the MBR...
I still say we need to consult the pros instead of everybody chipping in their scrubby opinions and getting nowhere. I will give this chart more credibility if it comes from the MBR...
Fortress | Sveet
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well i'm done posting in this thread. i dont agree with the way the chart is structured (like many other people it seems) and now the OP is ignoring anyone who tries to improve it. nintendude had an excellent system and was completely blown off.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
No, it's that everything you said about the matchup was wrong.
The reason ICs fear Peach is because she's a stupid hard matchup. And it is very hard for a lot of reasons, but one of the big ones is that she splits them very well, and when she gets between Popo and Nana, very rarely can he successfully rescue her because she can hit Nana with very, very little commitment (lagless aerials + D-smash it's a beautiful combination) and all the while she can still keep Popo at bay with spaced moves.you said:
Her ability to split them and assassinate Nana swiftly is, incidentally, why she can't be throw comboed very effectively. In order to throw combo effectively, you need both climbers. You not only need Nana alive, but you also need her conveniently synced up. By splitting them so often (and frequently killing Nana in the process), Peach screws really hard with this plan.
Finally, you said that Peach's grab evasion was "less than stellar". In the context of IC vs Peach, this is false. Their low traction (they slide too far away when she aerials their shield), plus her autocancel aerials (because of float cancel), plus the D-smash (often defeats shield, or auto-splits Ice Climbers) make it extremely difficult for ICs to procure a grab. Moreover, the fact that she can simply choose to not land with her attack and just float is a very, very effective way of not being grabbed because she's not very vulnerable to being grabbed when she's that high in the air.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Not only is Peach hard to grab, but if she floats at the right height and spaces well, it's pretty hard to do anything to her with ICs. ICs usually need to try to punish her whenever she's on the ground, which is still tough thanks to jab/dsmash, or go for silly, risky things like full jump bairs.
unknown522
Some guy
@ school right now. Comps suck, so I can't post too much for the next 20 mins.
Additionally, peach's almost lagless aerials + fast d-smash makes it really hard to grab her. The only characters that are good at landing landing grabs on peach are, fox / falco / marth / sheik / falcon.
KK pretty much covered what you were missing.
I agree with your opinion of falco. Always have and probably always will. You are probably one of the few that aren't underrating falco.
The reason I said "what are you talking about" is because you are clearly underrating your character (now that I know that you play peach). It is common knowledge that peach destroys the ICs. You were only speaking from the side of what ICs can do to peach, but you didn't take into consideration how difficult it is for the ICs to set up their infinites on peach. They have a very little window to punish peach, just like every other character, because of her FC'd moves and d-smash. Also conveniently, the d-smash both have a high chance of shield-stabbing the ICs (usually nana). The IC's low traction also removes the chancce for punishing peach when they shield their hits. Peach also has more priority and better air mobility, so it is hard for them to approach her or punish her. Her moves also seperate the ICs really well and knock over nana quickly, which she never techs afterwards, so peach can chain n-airs, until she gets knocked off the stage, then popo most likely has issues saving her.
Additionally, peach's almost lagless aerials + fast d-smash makes it really hard to grab her. The only characters that are good at landing landing grabs on peach are, fox / falco / marth / sheik / falcon.
KK pretty much covered what you were missing.
Counter-Pick match-ups are planned to be determined after the neutrals chart has solidified to an acceptable extent (which has had several delays). This is also touched upon on the first post.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Skler
Smash Master
I was interpreting the numbers differently. I didn't consider it to be number of games won in a set of 10, but just a general bearing on how the matchup went.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
Did you know that tiers (the concept) aren't determined by tournament placings and players? In fact, for the most part, tournament placings and character popularity is usually influenced by how good that character is.
idea
Smash Master
i agree anyway, ICs aren't as good as peach, jiggs and falcon. ICs strengths are swallowed by their weaknesses.
tournament placings shouldn't be ignored completely or relied on for tier lists. clearly they mean something, but clearly they aren't the whole picture either. they're just something to keep in mind. and almost no one has ever done well with ICs. that could be because they're unpopular and are actually amazing, but after 7+ years, it's more likely that they just aren't that good. (and once you start analyzing the character, that just becomes clearer)
again, they could be very strong characters and no one has realized it, but i'd rather bet on the option with the greater likelihood of accuracy. but i don't think you were talking about how good ICs are, strong bad, i think you were just trying to correct after dawn, so don't take any of this personally, plx. discussions are so much easier when stuff isn't taken personally anyway.
------------------------------------special dividing line------------------------------------
now. what does everyone think about jiggs-ICs? (someone tell me what to do if i ever face chu in pools or something)
tournament placings shouldn't be ignored completely or relied on for tier lists. clearly they mean something, but clearly they aren't the whole picture either. they're just something to keep in mind. and almost no one has ever done well with ICs. that could be because they're unpopular and are actually amazing, but after 7+ years, it's more likely that they just aren't that good. (and once you start analyzing the character, that just becomes clearer)
again, they could be very strong characters and no one has realized it, but i'd rather bet on the option with the greater likelihood of accuracy. but i don't think you were talking about how good ICs are, strong bad, i think you were just trying to correct after dawn, so don't take any of this personally, plx. discussions are so much easier when stuff isn't taken personally anyway.
------------------------------------special dividing line------------------------------------
now. what does everyone think about jiggs-ICs? (someone tell me what to do if i ever face chu in pools or something
)
pockyD
Smash Legend
ICs are one of the few characters that has won a major tournament, and for something like a 3 year period, chu almost always placed top 3
they do suck though and have terrible matchups
they do suck though and have terrible matchups
BunBun
Smash Master
Fsmash a lot and rest nana =/now. what does everyone think about jiggs-ICs? (someone tell me what to do if i ever face chu in pools or something
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
And for 7 years we've been placing Jigglypuff under Peach and Falcon; it wasn't until very recently that people considered she might be up with the top tiers. Mango's success was written off as player skill (which it could be), and people did the same with Chu. At the very least Chu's tournament performance has shown that, when played intelligently, ICs can compete at a top level.
idea
Smash Master
mm, fair enough. do you think ICs should be where they are on the tier list? i'd put them below peach/jiggs/falcon. hmm...maybe above falcon if we were ignoring low tiers.
it's unfortunate there aren't more jiggs and ICs mains cause we also run into the problem of insufficient data.
Europhoria
Smash Lord
I disagree. Chu was also able to compete and succeed at the top level with Pikachu and Young Link (unless they're high tier as well). After Mango started having success with Jiggs, there was a wave of Jigglypuff players who learned from it and consequently started doing much better. After 7 years of watching Chu **** people well... the amount of ICs that place well besides him is a testament to how bad ICs are.
Chu's just an abnormally smart player; makes good reads, etc.
pockyD
Smash Legend
did chu win some secret tournaments with pikachu and young link that we haven't heard about
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
Umm WTF they suck? I can understand maybe just one but dude WTF. The metagame for them has dropped but they DON'T suck, They have some big flaws like dair and stuff but overall they are very powerful and legit just few players and a drop in their metagame, I heard wobbles is getting better and chu still plays most of the time.
I,ve had enough of the ____ sucks S*** I will always say pikachu sucks but dude it's the player who sucks and I doubt you would **** a lot of ice climber players up and down. They have bad match-ups but that doesn't make them suck their just so unbelieveablely hard to be good as fox can run around nair and he's good, the ice climbers can't just run around spamming, aleast not that easy. plus no one in the game gets gayed half as bad as them from counter picks, it's beyond unfair and this is coming from someone who plays as pichu and never johns.
Kyu Puff is right they can but we need wisedom and knowedge (in my book wisedom is understanding, meaning you can work more this your knowedge or you can understand something without knowing it)
pockyD
Smash Legend
i seriously wish that you would never post
comments are meant to be taken in context
comments are meant to be taken in context
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Chu's Pika and YLink were used against Peaches mainly, and sometimes counterpick stages (to my knowledge).
N64
Smash Champion
He beat cort's peach with pika right? Once upon a time.
Cort's pretty goodsies.
Cort's pretty goodsies.
idea
Smash Master
at ROM he did. not sure if that's the time you meant. i'd believe it if he did so more than once.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
Savingforever
Smash Cadet
Aww... last time i was on this thread it was out of 100. Now matchups can't be like 35 or 45 they have to be even. i c that falco and fox are even again 
... lol
But yea about IC's i think they are where they should be on the chart because yea u look at the higher tier characters (fox falco falcon) they all can spam moves pretty well. Fox - Nairs shines, falco - same but add in lasers and dairs. Falcon- well he just moves so **** fast how are you going to hit him... lol. They all can put soo much pressure on them. But about gannon i would of though it would be 7-3 for gannon because he has so much knock back with his move and when your playin with ic's there never at the same percent... so one might fly back more or something.. it just seems they might get separated... i dont know maybe not. just tryin to think about the matchup in my head.
... lolBut yea about IC's i think they are where they should be on the chart because yea u look at the higher tier characters (fox falco falcon) they all can spam moves pretty well. Fox - Nairs shines, falco - same but add in lasers and dairs. Falcon- well he just moves so **** fast how are you going to hit him... lol. They all can put soo much pressure on them. But about gannon i would of though it would be 7-3 for gannon because he has so much knock back with his move and when your playin with ic's there never at the same percent... so one might fly back more or something.. it just seems they might get separated... i dont know maybe not. just tryin to think about the matchup in my head.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
IC Ganon is one of those matchups, IMO, where there is a very limited supply of quality information on it.
It does, however, seem bad for the IC (IMO).
Bair, Fair, and the ability to kill Nana almost as quickly as Fox and Peach is something to be reckoned with. Mercifully, Ganon is slow. Unfortunately, this doesn't help as much as it should because ICs don't move as quickly as it seems despite their long wavedash.
It does, however, seem bad for the IC (IMO).
Bair, Fair, and the ability to kill Nana almost as quickly as Fox and Peach is something to be reckoned with. Mercifully, Ganon is slow. Unfortunately, this doesn't help as much as it should because ICs don't move as quickly as it seems despite their long wavedash.
SDC
Smash Lord
Insane Crazy Guy, no offense, but do you have some, um, mental issues?
I don't think it's so much that the ICs are poor characters but rather that there aren't many good IC players left. Chu isn't very active anymore?(isn't he?)? Wobbles didn't go to genesis, and then there's..........Who? If there is a good player to use them in tourney, I'm sure the ICs will do better again.
I don't think it's so much that the ICs are poor characters but rather that there aren't many good IC players left. Chu isn't very active anymore?(isn't he?)? Wobbles didn't go to genesis, and then there's..........Who? If there is a good player to use them in tourney, I'm sure the ICs will do better again.