Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[Divinokage]

I'm raging inside too much right now so I can't post something intelligent I'll wait.. lol.

 

[Lovage]

HARDCORE AXXELERATION

EAYEYAYAEYEEaaa

Too bad OTG is not from Canada.

Also what's wrong in stating actual facts?

wtf? i was quoting unkown who posted right above me, where did you get otg from.

 

[derfleurer]

no kirby is better. kirby actually has combos, edgeguards, vertical kos, horizontal kos, and moves that lead into ko moves. as far as i can tell from your posts, pichu only has nair and nair and a bit more nair.

Pichu actually has a really good SHFFL. And her aerials do at least have decent priority. She can combo well, and in my opinion, she has more options to even make an approach in the first place.

Also, let's talk Pichu vs. Jiggs. Currently 20-80, yet Pika is 60-40 on Jiggs... Either I'm missing something, or Pichu should be something like 35-65 here.

You mean 40-60? And it's because Pichu's only viable killing option in that match-up is an up-smash.

 

[NES n00b]

M2K's list only has to do with acceleration by what it said and that looks correct since Pichu has good acceleration relatively speaking compared to the cast, but a terrible top speed. Pichu has no priority cause its active hitboxes don't extend any farther away from its hittable hitbox.

 

[otg]

wtf? i was quoting unkown who posted right above me, where did you get otg from.

I figured you were quoting Unknown, but I also wasn't sure if you were refering to me beacuse I brought up how bad the knee ***** Doc in the first place.

 

[Strong Badam]

M2K's list only has to do with acceleration by what it said and that looks correct since Pichu has good acceleration relatively speaking compared to the cast, but a terrible top speed. Pichu has no priority cause its active hitboxes don't extend any farther away from its hittable hitbox.

his list is ranked first by top speed, and then by acceleration. for example, sheik pika and marth all have the same top speed, but sheik accelerates to that top speed faster than Pika & Marth, and Pika accelerates to that top speed faster than Marth.

i swear, all i hear from canada are situations and options and positions and outcomes

what the **** are you SUPPOSED to discuss in a match-up? a match-up is ultimately divided into several different situations, with each character having few or many options to choose from to gain an advantage in that situation or minimize any lost advantage.

 

[NES n00b]

his list is ranked first by top speed, and then by acceleration. for example, sheik pika and marth all have the same top speed, but sheik accelerates to that top speed faster than Pika & Marth, and Pika accelerates to that top speed faster than Marth.

what the **** are you SUPPOSED to discuss in a match-up? a match-up is ultimately divided into several different situations, with each character having few or many options to choose from to gain an advantage in that situation or minimize any lost advantage.

Ahh makes sense.

 

[RaynEX]

Is this guy still going on with the Pichu thing? lol...

what the **** are you SUPPOSED to discuss in a match-up? a match-up is ultimately divided into several different situations, with each character having few or many options to choose from to gain an advantage in that situation or minimize any lost advantage.

aka theory crafting is all you really can do on a forum when discussing match-ups. Talk about what might happen, and debate how to stop it, who is works on, and why it works etc etc

 

[TheManaLord]

the tip to being good falcon is not missing l cancels ever and just run away a lot lol

 

[x After Dawn x]

I'm raging inside too much right now so I can't post something intelligent I'll wait.. lol.

Don't worry. Just ignore him, he has no clue what he's talking about.

the tip to being good falcon is not missing l cancels ever and just run away a lot lol

Fixed LOL.

kidding. =p

 

[smasher32]

no kirby is better. kirby actually has combos, edgeguards, vertical kos, horizontal kos, and moves that lead into ko moves. as far as i can tell from your posts, pichu only has nair and nair and a bit more nair.

kirby has combos? maybe some, but pichu has more speed and faster aerials that let him have better/easier combos.

kirby definitely has edgeguards. 100x better than pichu IMO.

kirby has vertical KOs? the only thing i can think of is the up air, but that has a really small hitbox. pichu has the upsmash and thunder if (really) well placed.

kirby has horizontal KOs? sweetspotted fsmash and...sweetspot hammer are all i can think of. both with some delay. although he does have the bair, that doesn't guarantee horizontal KOs. pichu has fsmash and nair, although nair isn't as effective.

kirby has moves that lead into KO moves? uhh...what are those combos, and are they at feasible percents?

on a completely different note, I honestly believe CFalcon v Kirby is 60//40. I'll defend this as much as I can, but my main points are kirby's bair on CF's entire game and ducking. Just...dont get grabbed or hit with the knee.

 

[Devil Ray]

lol, who cares about pichu.

btw, i looked at puff's matchups....and i don't think it's 40-60 for marth. i think it's either even, or only 55 in marth's favor. marth can almost never fsmash jigg's shield, or he'll get rested or aerial ooshield. i used to think marth ***** jiggs bc of range, but marth's aerials almost never kill and fsmash has so much lag.

 

[Alphicans]

There should be like two separate match-up ratios for marth vs jiggs. Because it seems like at lower level games marth just absolutely ***** jiggs, but at the more pro level it starts to even out. Obviously all we care about is the maximum level of play when doing this, but I think it would be fair to note these types of things. This probably can apply to a lot of match-ups, but marth vs jiggs, I think, is the most obvious.

 

[Divinokage]

There should be like two separate match-up ratios for marth vs jiggs. Because it seems like at lower level games marth just absolutely ***** jiggs, but at the more pro level it starts to even out. Obviously all we care about is the maximum level of play when doing this, but I think it would be fair to note these types of things. This probably can apply to a lot of match-ups, but marth vs jiggs, I think, is the most obvious.

No it's not fair, a matchup list is based on when 2 TOP evenly skilled players that know their characters inside out go at it at each other for a lot of games. It's the lower skilled players that attempt to say things and they have no clue what they are talking about as they never experienced playing against Mango and the like.. it should be this way.

 

[Alphicans]

Yes I agreed with your point in the very post you quoted. I am just saying that the majority of people are not good at this game at all, and would definitely find match-ups a lot different then interpreted here. Would you not agree to that? I am not saying you should make a whole different chart, but I think it would be "fair" to let non-pro players know that these match-ups will translate very differently from skill level to skill level.

 

[otg]

It's the lower skilled players that attempt to say things and they have no clue what they are talking about as they never experienced playing against Mango and the like.. it should be this way.

If thats the case, then you guys should only take into account like 3 or 4 peoples opinions TOTAL on all matchups. No one that has posted in this thread except for Mango is a top player by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Yeah Marth is pretty even with Jiggs, but not 50-50. I think Marth still has a slight advantage, but Jiggs basically ***** Marth off stage (edgeguards him better than any other character), and whole match seems to be Marth just trying to make a wall, then killing Jiggs somehow while he racked up damage from Jigglypuff, then Jigglypuff spawns and kills him. Or, Jiggs kills Marth, then Jiggs tries to rack up as much damage and / or get a rest off before Marth kills him with his fresh stock.

I would say it's no more than 50-50 and no less than 60-40. Not sure where to put a numeric value, it seems to be a very subjective matchup for numbers IMO.

If thats the case, then you guys should only take into account like 3 or 4 peoples opinions TOTAL on all matchups. No one that has posted in this thread except for Mango is a top player by any stretch of the imagination.

That's really ironic considering you're talking to Kage.

 

[otg]

That's really ironic considering you're talking to Kage.

And Kage's beat m2k and Mango in Grand finals how many times?

 

[Rannskita]

I would say it's no more than 50-50 and no less than 60-40. Not sure where to put a numeric value, it seems to be a very subjective matchup for numbers IMO.

its probably like a 60-50

 

[Alphicans]

And Kage's beat m2k and Mango in Grand finals how many times?

I'd agree.

Kages a pro and a top ganon, but not a top pro. Then again what defines a top pro?

 

[Divinokage]

Yes I agreed with your point in the very post you quoted. I am just saying that the majority of people are not good at this game at all, and would definitely find match-ups a lot different then interpreted here. Would you not agree to that? I am not saying you should make a whole different chart, but I think it would be "fair" to let non-pro players know that these match-ups will translate very differently from skill level to skill level.

Ya they view the matchups differently because lower skilled players face lower skilled players and a matchup chart at that level will look a lot different. I understand they are trying to develop points here but if you can't see what high level play is like then I don't know if it should matter or not.

Now another point I want to bring is this:

Now let's say someone watches TV a lot and all he watches is videos or fights of UFC or boxing. Ya he's definitely going to know what counter what however... if you put that same person on the battlefield, he's gonna get crushed completely.. see what I'm saying? Experience and theories are 2 different things.. and for me experience is much more valid because it is a more truthful experience and you can actually genuinely talk about something you lived. To me it means much more and it is much more credible.

If thats the case, then you guys should only take into account like 3 or 4 peoples opinions TOTAL on all matchups. No one that has posted in this thread except for Mango is a top player by any stretch of the imagination.

Oh.. there are probably at least 100 players that are on high level at least. Can't name them all because they are too good hehe. =P

And Kage's beat m2k and Mango in Grand finals how many times?

Never, but that's not the point at all. When I said Mango and the like.. I meant a lot of top players. =P

 

[otg]

oh my bad kage, I miss construed what you said. When I think top level play, I'm looking atl ike mango, armada, m2k etc etc.

 

[Divinokage]

oh my bad kage, I miss construed what you said. When I think top level play, I'm looking atl ike mango, armada, m2k etc etc.

Sorry about that, as I said before I tend to be fragmented. =p

 

[Raistlin]

All the posts I've read about Marth using ftilits, dtilts, and grabs to cover himself; Pichu has a specific counter to each of those situations.

After Dawn... is it your time of the month or something? I really don't see what I'm doing wrong by posting valid arguments here. It's not like I'm saying Pichu's downB has no lag and his projectile game is amazing. I'm pointing out facts and giving examples as to how they could be used beneficially in the matchup. You're the troll for essentially covering your ears and going "nuh-uh." Maybe you're not on your period; you're just five-years-old.

You assume I'm some random scrub. I've played against RockCrock and Raistlin with my Pichu. Hell, I beat a guy who beat RockCrock in a tournament with my Pichu. He was playing Sheik. I don't see how all of that is relevant though. Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.

Also, I tend to live a long time for two stocks of the match against Marth, for reasons I've explained several times that nobody has come up with a rebuttal to. Coupling that with Pichu's offstage edgeguard game, you really don't have to land that many more hits to win, and that's assuming Marth's little fury swipes actually lead to combos.

It's hard to get in, I agree, but not 85-15 hard.

I am a little curious, and I don't say this to be a jerk, but who are you? Do you go to UF and shown up to the gaming club meetings? Because I can't remember playing a Pichu. Was this last semester sometime? I know there was a tournament around then.

Yeah Marth is pretty even with Jiggs, but not 50-50. I think Marth still has a slight advantage, but Jiggs basically ***** Marth off stage (edgeguards him better than any other character), and whole match seems to be Marth just trying to make a wall, then killing Jiggs somehow while he racked up damage from Jigglypuff, then Jigglypuff spawns and kills him. Or, Jiggs kills Marth, then Jiggs tries to rack up as much damage and / or get a rest off before Marth kills him with his fresh stock.

I would say it's no more than 50-50 and no less than 60-40. Not sure where to put a numeric value, it seems to be a very subjective matchup for numbers IMO.

Rofl, that is exactly what the match-up is like. Play super gay and try to get a rest when you're at like 150%.

 

[Divinokage]

I am a little curious, and I don't say this to be a jerk, but who are you? Do you go to UF and shown up to the gaming club meetings? Because I can't remember playing a Pichu. Was this last semester sometime? I know there was a tournament around then.



Rofl, that is exactly what the match-up is like. Play super gay and try to get a rest when you're at like 150%.

hahaha.. Are lies being spread by this Pichu guy?

 

[Vulcan55]

its probably like a 60-50

60% jiggs,
50% Marth,
110% match-up.

Also, I agree with Doc-Falcon being at least 4-6 (If not worse)

 

[x After Dawn x]

hahaha.. Are lies being spread by this Pichu guy?

I wouldn't doubt it. And when that Pichu guy said he beat a Sheik who beat RockCrock, the Sheik he played against probably sandbagged to **** and let him win. I also wouldn't doubt if he only won a single match out of an entire set either. I hate it when people forget to mention the other side of the story. >_>

But yeah, Marth vs Jiggs is mad gay. Go Fox and win instead. =)

 

[Raistlin]

hahaha.. Are lies being spread by this Pichu guy?

I don't think so, I just don't recognize the name so he probably used his real name at the gaming club.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Well, have you ever beaten someone who's beaten an elite player in a tournament environment?

Using this logic we are all elite players. Pinuichu just is uncommon, not good.

All the posts I've read about Marth using ftilits, dtilts, and grabs to cover himself; Pichu has a specific counter to each of those situations.

After Dawn... is it your time of the month or something? I really don't see what I'm doing wrong by posting valid arguments here. It's not like I'm saying Pichu's downB has no lag and his projectile game is amazing. I'm pointing out facts and giving examples as to how they could be used beneficially in the matchup. You're the troll for essentially covering your ears and going "nuh-uh." Maybe you're not on your period; you're just five-years-old.

You assume I'm some random scrub. I've played against RockCrock and Raistlin with my Pichu. Hell, I beat a guy who beat RockCrock in a tournament with my Pichu. He was playing Sheik. I don't see how all of that is relevant though. Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.

Also, I tend to live a long time for two stocks of the match against Marth, for reasons I've explained several times that nobody has come up with a rebuttal to. Coupling that with Pichu's offstage edgeguard game, you really don't have to land that many more hits to win, and that's assuming Marth's little fury swipes actually lead to combos.

It's hard to get in, I agree, but not 85-15 hard.

I cant really speak from pichus standpoint, but as marth I just dont see the problem.

At best Id give 70-30 only because pichu is small and cute.

You can argue that alot of characters have counters to marths tilts, but they still dont have the advantage and often a chance. Rock, paper, scissors is consisted of counters, but the whole meta game makes it so that nobody wins all the time, really saying that you cant rely on predicting which tilt marth is going to use thus making those "counters" unreliable. The counter for everything is spacing.

Marth has more range, more horizontal speed, and an overall higher frequency of useful attacks. Plus like you said he has a much better wall, making it incredible difficult for pichu to get inside. And then once pichu does get inside, ur left with limited options, and minimal combos.

While marth doesnt always have true combos that work 100% he doesnt have a problem getting a succession of hits like pichu does.

Marth has an incredible amount of options for edgeguarding without leaving the stage, and even more if you choose to do so. Pichu has a possibility of edgeguarding with her lack in range.

Understand that most players who play a low tier will argue a better matchup, when really its their opponents lack of exp for said character. The chart shouldnt reflect personal accomplishments based on an opponents inexperience.

IMO the matchup is 80-20

 

[worldjem7]

I hope everyone realizes that when you give a lower tiered character like Pichu a better match-up against a top tier like Marth, you're basically saying that anyone else that isn't the same as the new better match-up has a worse time against the top tier.

So you're saying that:

Zelda, Mewtwo, Koopa, Roy, Ness, Yoshi, and Kirby, all have a worse match-up vs Marth than Pichu does.

I highly doubt this.

 

[Divinokage]

I wouldn't doubt it. And when that Pichu guy said he beat a Sheik who beat RockCrock, the Sheik he played against probably sandbagged to **** and let him win. I also wouldn't doubt if he only won a single match out of an entire set either. I hate it when people forget to mention the other side of the story. >_>

But yeah, Marth vs Jiggs is mad gay. Go Fox and win instead. =)

Or Ganon.. but no one uses him for some reason I'd like to see some pros use Ganon and do well with him, it'd be fun to see. =P

 

[idea]

jiggs marth is 60/40, i'd say. it's lots and lots of spacing, and marth has a sword. then jiggs edgeguards and stuff. the silly jigglypuff things are good, but you have to get past the sword first.

but i could see it being 55/45 too. 50/50 seems like a bit of a stretch.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I hope everyone realizes that when you give a lower tiered character like Pichu a better match-up against a top tier like Marth, you're basically saying that anyone else that isn't the same as the new better match-up has a worse time against the top tier.

So you're saying that:

Zelda, Mewtwo, Koopa, Roy, Ness, Yoshi, and Kirby, all have a worse match-up vs Marth than Pichu does.

I highly doubt this.

Very true.

I wouldn't put Pichu any lower than 5-95, but no higher than 15-85. I have never, ever heard of or seen a Pichu player beat a good (read: good) Marth player and I've seen 30,000+ YouTube videos which are consisted of mostly smash (in b4 "you have no life").

Or Ganon.. but no one uses him for some reason I'd like to see some pros use Ganon and do well with him, it'd be fun to see. =P

People aren't manly enough to become warriors and use Ganon!

P.S. Is there a reason why Pikachu vs Falco is 30-70? I always thought Fox and Falco did about the same vs Pikachu; Falco's lasers are obviously much better in the matchup, but he also can get gimped hardcore easy (easier than Fox). Shouldn't it be at least 35-65? Once you get Falco off the edge, it's like a free stock for Pika.

 

[worldjem7]

Pikachu gimps both space animals pretty much the same, but Falco's lasers stop pika from effectively getting Falco off the stage as well as he might vs Fox because of the attributes of Falco's laser: it puts on damage and stops Pikachu's approach. That's where the 5 extra points come from.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i argued before that pikachu does better vs falco than fox. fox ***** the **** out of pikachu between easy combos and early kos (uthrow uair at 70%). falco has an easier-to-gimp recovery which i think matters a lot as that will be one of pikachu's main source of kills, but also i think he can deal with falco's lasers pretty well between his decent platform game and his projectile can actually force falco to approach (similar to the sheik vs falco matchup)

 

[idea]

how good is pika's upair vs. both spacies? i can't see it beating falco's dair <_< but i can see it coming out faster.

 

[NES n00b]

It is disjointed so it probably can beat falco's dair, but I really don't know.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yea i believe his uair beats dair, and its especially good if they cross behind your shield. you can sh uair out of your shield and start a combo. uair links into a uair like 15 billion times and you can end with a usmash or nair.

also, uair->usmash is a kill combo starting around 95%

 

[Hialeah305]

just read the last 60 or so pages from this thread. and i have to say, looking from the outside in on this thread, I see alot of good posts and some that arent that great. im not too skilled on Pika's matchups but Ill wait it out til i can post something useful. plus it just seems like a canadian social right now

 

[unknown522]

the knee puts doc in a bad position? LOL, it kills him? that's a bad position.

i swear, all i hear from canada are situations and options and positions and outcomes

what about when he makes it back?

He's not always gonna die from a knee at 60-70%.

i argued before that pikachu does better vs falco than fox. fox ***** the **** out of pikachu between easy combos and early kos (uthrow uair at 70%). falco has an easier-to-gimp recovery which i think matters a lot as that will be one of pikachu's main source of kills, but also i think he can deal with falco's lasers pretty well between his decent platform game and his projectile can actually force falco to approach (similar to the sheik vs falco matchup)

yeah, he does do better / about as well vs falco than fox.

I already said the update was coming. Wait for it.

3-5) Sheik > Pikachu > Marth
6) Pichu
7-10) Young Link > Roy > Yoshi > DK
11-15) Falco > Dr. Mario = Mario > Mr. Game & Watch > Bowser

From the stats thread.

Edit:Also, let's talk Pichu vs. Jiggs. Currently 20-80, yet Pika is 60-40 on Jiggs... Either I'm missing something, or Pichu should be something like 35-65 here.

Edit2: Horizontal Air Speed
17-18) Pichu / Pikachu

It's the same.

Pichu inheritly sucks ***. He can't hit jiggs with anything. Pichu and Pika Aren't the same character.