Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[Raistlin]

deleted .

 

[JBM falcon08]

sveet thats a pretty good comparison, although i wouldn't compare fox to falcon considering falcon starts combos with nair grab, knee grab, or dair to grab or **** with nair.

also falcon tries to space more than fox in the matchup. He doesn't get punished when he spaces well.

although yes as far as approaching fox/falcon do the same thing, but fox does a better job of it.

 

[otg]

so i'm pretty sure marth vs falcon is actually in marth's favor. you play it similarly to marth vs fox, except there is no shine and falcon cant stay in your face as well as fox. falcon and fox try to punish basically the same thing (force a wiff and lag punish) except falcon has no lasers and i think fox does it better.

all of falcon's approaches can be beat by proper spacing, and basically all of his combos can be escaped if you DI correctly.

marth ***** falcon off stage, falcon should be dead at any percent if he gets thrown off. on stage its about even or slightly in marth's favor.

While I agree with everything you're saying here, you forget how hard Marth get's ***** by Falcon once he makes a mistake. Marth has to work a lot harder to get in and rack up damage, especially if Falcon is DD camping really well. Whoever gets the first hit will ****, but Falcon doesn't need to do as much to kill Marth, while Marth has to get Falcon off stage, or get him to mid %'s before he can start juggling to lead into a KO. Falcon can start the **** at 0%. My 2 cents.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

idk, marth really ***** the **** out of falcon, combo wise. if you get a grab, you can tech chase him to hell. if he is over 30-40% you can uthrow->utilt or fair/uair if they DI. fair starts amazing combos, and if you get him off the stage or even to the ledge he should die.

idk, marth vs falcon seems to be one of my better match ups, so maybe i'm just biased. or maybe i'm just MW...

and as far as the nair->**** stuff, you just have to space better. the more i play this game, the more and more i start disagreeing with stuff m2k says.

and i really think fox punishes mis-spacing better than falcon does. maybe because i'm MW, we know how to DI out of falcon's combos better or something, but i'm much more afraid of the shine than a grab, and i'm much more afraid of fox's nair than falcon's nair. fox is so much more scary as a tech chaser, because even if he plays reactionary he can keep the pressure up and leave no breathing room.

from my experience, 50/50 or 55/45 marth's favor.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

LOL Midwest.

that's in Europe, right?

i cant remember because I havent heard MW in like 3 years.

 

[unknown522]

falcon's DD camping is amazing in the matchup. He's like one of the few characters that can actually get in on marth sometimes. Falcon also has amazing combos on marth, though marth as well has amazing combos and amazing tech chasing on falcon. The also both get ***** off stage.

 

[-ACE-]

Falcon's DD is so good, and you can grab marth (yes, even marth) after pretty much any missed aerial. It requires some **** good mindgames to stop a good Falcon from getting inside.

 

[SuperMatt]

why is fox-jiggly 65-35 ?

it's pretty clear that its 45-55 at most and maybe more in jigglys favour

 

[Divinokage]

why is fox-jiggly 65-35 ?

it's pretty clear that its 45-55 at most and maybe more in jigglys favour

Can you beat any Fox with your Jiggs? See I'm using the same logic as you.

 

[idea]

why is fox-jiggly 65-35 ?

it's pretty clear that its 45-55 at most and maybe more in jigglys favour

lol no

how much experience do you have with that matchup? it's easily jigglypuff's worst.

it's like 60-40 for jiggs if the fox sucks <_< if they know what they're doing and don't, for instance, nair in front of jiggs' shield and miss the l-cancel repeatedly, then it's really hard. (it's more even if fox approaches a lot, but that would be playing the matchup wrong, so it doesn't count)

 

[-ACE-]

At top tier play I'd put Fox/Puff at 55/45 or at best 60/40 in Fox's favor.

I'm still surprised the chart says Ganon has a 65/35 advantage on IC's lol, that should really be even or 55/45 in IC's favor imo.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

i think people would be more clear on what they thought match ups were if everyone was on the same page with what each number meant.

i might think luigi gets wrecked by gannon at 80/20 where as some other guy might think its just a tough matchup and put it at the same number as me(not his fault, just maybe hes confused).

something like:

50/50 dead even
55/45 stage dependent
60/40 slight advantage
65/35
70/30 advantage
75/25
80/20 big advantage
85/15
90/10 unfair advantage
95/5
100/0 impossible

not sure what to put for the 5's but i think we'd all be in the same thread if we all went by something like this.

(thanx damdai)

 

[-ACE-]

i might think luigi gets wrecked by gannon at 80/20 where as some other guy might think its just a tough matchup

The Luigi matchup is in Ganon's favor, but not by a landslide. It's more like 60/40 or maybe even 55/45.

 

[idea]

yeah, i agree, i don't think people all look at those the same way. now that i think of it, 80/20 and 90/10 sound like the same thing to me - unreasonably difficult.

it doesn't help that most of the horrible matchups only start around low tier, so no one is familiar with exactly HOW bad they are. which is still one of the main problems with this chart =P but anyway.

and...70/30 sounds to me like "this character will almost never win in tournament; their opponent has to have no idea what they're doing". but i like your rating system better.

 

[Divinokage]

The Luigi matchup is in Ganon's favor, but not by a landslide. It's more like 60/40 or maybe even 55/45.

Probably I played 30 MMs all best of 5 with Ka-master I won 17-13 in the end. Didn't count the scores but that means I won 51 times while Ka-Master won uhh.. probably just a bit less. Ka-Master is the best Luigi by far.

At top tier play I'd put Fox/Puff at 55/45 or at best 60/40 in Fox's favor.

I'm still surprised the chart says Ganon has a 65/35 advantage on IC's lol, that should really be even or 55/45 in IC's favor imo.

In IC's favor? Pfff.. who do you play against? All the ICs I've come across I either beat them or I 4 stock them, they can't grab me. That includes Wobbles too lol.

 

[-ACE-]

In IC's favor? Pfff.. who do you play against? All the ICs I've come across I either beat them or I 4 stock them, they can't grab me. That includes Wobbles too lol.

I'm judging this mainly from playing Chu in tournament. Singles I lost, teams I won.

Do you think Wobbles is particularly good at the Ganon matchup?

 

[Blatt Blvd]

no, i dont think thats the matchup numbers for weeg/gannon, it was just an example.

even though it is prolly luigi's worst match up with sheik and maybe marth

 

[Divinokage]

I'm judging this mainly from playing Chu in tournament. Singles I lost, teams I won.

Do you think Wobbles is particularly good at the Ganon matchup?

Probably not, who's a good ganon in his region?

Also about Chu.. last time I lost to him 2-1 back at Pound 3.. I'm wondering if i can take him now.. I think I can at least.

 

[-ACE-]

Probably not, who's a good ganon in his region?

This is what I was thinking. And I know Chu doesn't play a bunch of great Ganons all the time but I know he has a good amount of exp. in that matchup (more than most great IC mains).

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Probably not, who's a good ganon in his region?

There aren't any really good Ganons on the west coast.

 

[otg]

yeah, i agree, i don't think people all look at those the same way. now that i think of it, 80/20 and 90/10 sound like the same thing to me - unreasonably difficult.

it doesn't help that most of the horrible matchups only start around low tier, so no one is familiar with exactly HOW bad they are. which is still one of the main problems with this chart =P but anyway.

and...70/30 sounds to me like "this character will almost never win in tournament; their opponent has to have no idea what they're doing". but i like your rating system better.

The fact of the matter is, anything past 70:30 is completely not worth looking at. Most of these numbers are completely arbitrary anyway, a character with a 40:60 matchup (IE: Jiggs vs. Fox) doesn't even make that huge a difference in tournament. This chart should really be simplified like the 64 matchup chart.

Break it down into 5 categories (even, slight disadvantage/advantage, large disadvantage/advantage) which makes things easier to understand. Nintendude was making this argument awhile back, a lot of people seemed on board, but then the OP pretty much **** all over it, because apparently, we have to make sure that people see the difference between a 90-10 matchup, and a 80-20 matchup. That **** is insignificant in the long run, and just insists upon itself.

This would also balance out the low tier matchups. Sheik having 90-10 matchups vs. everyone below mid tier makes her overall better in the matchup chart than Fox or Falco, even though in reality they are better/stronger tournament characters. I'm just saying, this would make things better, but I'm sure someone is going to come in here and be like "BUT SHEIK DOES HAVE 90-10 MATCHUPS AND THAT IS IMPORTANT".

**** that, who cares?

 

[Divinokage]

There aren't any really good Ganons on the west coast.

Sucks because he's underused! I would love to see more Ganons at major tournaments doing well but oh well.. or just see the current pros use him for fun in MMs or something, haha. =P

 

[Blatt Blvd]

I would prefer a player designate a matchup as 5.5-4.5 IF that is what they felt it should be at.
(this applies to basically the top like 15 or so characters, since no one cares about lower tiers)
While there are 11 possible points of detail, it's a bit clunky still.
First off (because of how the scale is calibrated), 4 of the possible 11 outcomes are rarely used. (10-0, 9-1, 1-9, 0-10)
Follow that up with 2 more that are very uncommon. (8-2, 2-8)
So that leaves us with 5.
Then remove 5-5 because it denotes an even match and, therefor, does not provide a way to convey subtleties/degrees of mismatches.
That leaves us with with 4.
Remove half of them, when you are looking at describing a mismatch. (since they convey the exact same degree of information, and simply reflect a variation in the order in which looking at the characters for ranking)
That leaves us with 2. (4-6, 3-7)
So in a situation where two characters are not evenly matched, most players generally make the following call:
1) 8-2 = blowout
2) 7-3 = beating
3) 6-4 = edge

Not used:
10-0 = never
9-1 = might get lucky

Conveys no connotation of mismatch:
5-5 = even

(zaspacer)

 

[x After Dawn x]

At top tier play I'd put Fox/Puff at 55/45 or at best 60/40 in Fox's favor.

I'm still surprised the chart says Ganon has a 65/35 advantage on IC's lol, that should really be even or 55/45 in IC's favor imo.

I always thought the matchup was 60-40. People just say to camp the **** out of Jiggs, but it's hard for Fox do to anything when Jiggs is sorta camping with wop that's too close enough for Fox to start lasering. ie hungrybox vs m2k last match of their set (yes, I know M2K has problems with puff, but just saying).

I don't think 65-35 is out of question, but this matchup chart is supposed to assume that both players know full knowledge of their matchup, and a Jiggs with knowledge and experience against Fox won't lose 65 % of the time. =/ Fact is that whereas Fox can get easy kills of Jiggs, Jiggs can do the same thing back to Fox (jab > rest, upthrow to rest, edgeguard gimps).

 

[Blatt Blvd]

I always thought the matchup was 60-40. People just say to camp the **** out of Jiggs, but it's hard for Fox do to anything when Jiggs is sorta camping with wop that's too close enough for Fox to start lasering. ie hungrybox vs m2k last match of their set (yes, I know M2K has problems with puff, but just saying).

I don't think 65-35 is out of question, but this matchup chart is supposed to assume that both players know full knowledge of their matchup, and a Jiggs with knowledge and experience against Fox won't lose 65 % of the time. =/ Fact is that whereas Fox can get easy kills of Jiggs, Jiggs can do the same thing back to Fox (jab > rest, upthrow to rest, edgeguard gimps).

lol m2k has lost to mangopuff and now hungrypuff(it has nothing to do with being "bad" vs puff).

sorry but fox/puff looks pretty evenish to me.

but everyone hates fox more than puff, so bias will always win(fox's dominance is still diminishing).

 

[x After Dawn x]

lol m2k could've easily won that set if he hadn't suicided so much. >_> maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, but I think maybe m2k only gets owned super hard by mango, not just mango's puff, or not just any jigglypuff.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

and losing twice to hungrybox is because hungrypuff is as good as mangopuff?

 

[x After Dawn x]

no, but hungrypuff is almost as good as mangopuff

 

[Blatt Blvd]

i dunnnnnoooooo

 

[Strong Badam]

ignore blatt
puff has always been at a disadvantage to fox
puff users have just gotten very good at it, and no fox user is particularly good at it.

 

[otg]

Anyone want to explain why Sheik v. Falco is 50/50 instead of Falco's advantage?

 

[unknown522]

why is fox-jiggly 65-35 ?

it's pretty clear that its 45-55 at most and maybe more in jigglys favour

Because when fox laser camps and runs away from jiggs, then gets low damage kills it gets pretty bad.

I think it's 6-4 for fox, but whatever, it's 5 points.

Anyone want to explain why Sheik v. Falco is 50/50 instead of Falco's advantage?

Sheik is faster than falco and has an amazing tech chase game on him.

Edgeguarding / gimping is easy, and inescapable when done properly.

Despite this, I actually have it as falco advantage on the next update.

I always thought the matchup was 60-40. People just say to camp the **** out of Jiggs, but it's hard for Fox do to anything when Jiggs is sorta camping with wop that's too close enough for Fox to start lasering. ie hungrybox vs m2k last match of their set (yes, I know M2K has problems with puff, but just saying).

I don't think 65-35 is out of question, but this matchup chart is supposed to assume that both players know full knowledge of their matchup, and a Jiggs with knowledge and experience against Fox won't lose 65 % of the time. =/ Fact is that whereas Fox can get easy kills of Jiggs, Jiggs can do the same thing back to Fox (jab > rest, upthrow to rest, edgeguard gimps).

I agree.

 

[Devil Ray]

sheik vs falco is dead even. it's even on every neutral stage except fd. i don't think it should change.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Despite this, I actually have it as falco advantage on the next update.


I agree.

good, it is. I mean, in theory it seems like sheik can gimp falco super hard but she can't. at least not as easily as other characters. falco just seems to maintain stage control a lot better, and I think his dair outprioritizes any of sheik's aerials. 55-45 I believe. what will you have it written down as?

p.s. I don't think I've ever heard a good sheik main say that sheik is even with falco? I don't think they're too enthusiastic about the matchup either. IIRC they're always said sheik has a small disadvantage vs spacies, but I dunno.

 

[unknown522]

M2K says it's even last time I talked with him.

But yeah, sheik actually beats falco's aerials, but you're more likely to get a trade with his d-air.

 

[x After Dawn x]

M2K says it's even last time I talked with him.

But yeah, sheik actually beats falco's aerials, but you're more likely to get a trade with his d-air.

Doesn't M2K also say Puff vs Sheik is 80-20? Yeah...that's why it's kind of good to ask multiple people about certain things. Especially in this case, since M2K likes exaggerating a lot of matchups. And I know I'm not the only one who knows this.

 

[otg]

I thought m2k mentioned that it was in Falco's favor after losing to Zhu at Genesis?

 

[x After Dawn x]

probably. watching sheik vs falco is not even comparable at watching marth vs falco though. marth vs falco is either 55-45 or 50-50, and there's no way at all that sheik could be the same as marth in that matchup. it's definitely 55-45 for falco here.

 

[unknown522]

Doesn't M2K also say Puff vs Sheik is 80-20? Yeah...that's why it's kind of good to ask multiple people about certain things. Especially in this case, since M2K likes exaggerating a lot of matchups. And I know I'm not the only one who knows this.

Well, seeing as I had it like that before asking M2K.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

sheik vs falco is really even. both **** each other, combo wise. stage control is really even, but i almost would give it to sheik. sheik gets around shield pressure really well, and she gets around lasers really well. she can actually force falco to approach (not he chooses to, but he HAS to)

fox beats sheik because of waveshine combos -> death (usmash/uthrow->uair) and shffl bair > sheik's options. falco simply doesn't have an easy solve to sheik like fox does.