Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[x After Dawn x]

fox beats sheik because of waveshine combos -> death (usmash/uthrow->uair) and shffl bair > sheik's options. falco simply doesn't have an easy solve to sheik like fox does.

actually he does. camp the **** out of sheik with lasers and make her approach. any smart falco isn't going to blindly approach into sheik's grabs. if you have good knowledge of the matchup, all you gotta do is camp it out. if you aren't camping at any point, falco's shine combos work very nicely against sheik. I rarely see sheiks getting low percent gimps off falco, it just doesn't happen (at least not anymore than what falco can do to sheik). also falco ***** sheik when she has to recover. not as much as fox, I'd say, but still. ledge hop to bair works well, dsmash works well too and if you can get off an fsmash, it's like a kill right there.

I think the matchup is probably even if falco plays too aggressively, but otherwise, you just gotta be patient and the matchup is in falco's favor. it's kind of like fox vs jigglypuff, only falco doesn't get punished as hard if he's too aggressive.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

ignore blatt
puff has always been at a disadvantage to fox
puff users have just gotten very good at it, and no fox user is particularly good at it.

LOL, ok.

says the bad at melee player.

youre right, m2k is just losing to both mangopuff and hungrypuff.

its just because m2k is bad i guess.

bias runs strong in this thread lol.

not to mention everyone who is posting isn't even good at melee lol(Canada, strong bad, otg).

all im wondering is why is fox so set in stone as the absolute best in this game(when he's clearly not as good as he was 3 years ago)?

BIAS, thats why.

 

[Pi]

actually he does. camp the **** out of sheik with lasers and make her approach. any smart falco isn't going to blindly approach into sheik's grabs. if you have good knowledge of the matchup, all you gotta do is camp it out. if you aren't camping at any point, falco's shine combos work very nicely against sheik. I rarely see sheiks getting low percent gimps off falco, it just doesn't happen (at least not anymore than what falco can do to sheik). also falco ***** sheik when she has to recover. not as much as fox, I'd say, but still. ledge hop to bair works well, dsmash works well too and if you can get off an fsmash, it's like a kill right there.

I think the matchup is probably even if falco plays too aggressively, but otherwise, you just gotta be patient and the matchup is in falco's favor. it's kind of like fox vs jigglypuff, only falco doesn't get punished as hard if he's too aggressive.

I dun see how falco could simply camp when sheik has needles to throw
If sheik ever gets em all charged up and lands em it's equivalent to like 10 falco lasers o.O
And falco has a much lower kill % than sheik.

And blatt, I've never doubted that fox is the best in the game, he's got like the best shuffle, he's fast, his lasers are too good, the reason I think puffs are beating foxes is beacuse of the way fox use to be able to walk all over everybody, he needs to take a much slower approach to puff matches and really camp her and I don't think fox players are willing to camp juss yet.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

so basically, foxes are losing to puff because they dont want to win?

ok

lets be serious for a second.

once again, because fox has been so dominant in the past, people completely overlook the possibility that maybe fox isn't as good as he used to be(not saying he's not top anymore, but maybe some of his matchups should be re-thought).

not to mention pretty much everyone in this thread has been playing melee for 2 years or less and have little to no exp with the matchup they're talking about(real experience>watching 1000+ videos and getting your own thoughts on the matchup).

 

[Divinokage]

LOL, ok.

says the bad at melee player.

youre right, m2k is just losing to both mangopuff and hungrypuff.

its just because m2k is bad i guess.

bias runs strong in this thread lol.

not to mention everyone who is posting isn't even good at melee lol(Canada, strong bad, otg).

all im wondering is why is fox so set in stone as the absolute best in this game(when he's clearly not as good as he was 3 years ago)?

BIAS, thats why.

Do you want to MM?

What's your definition of being good at melee?

 

[otg]

I'm legit Blatt Blvd. All I see you doing in here is trolling, so you can continue to rant all you want.

*hits ignore button*

 

[Strong Badam]

blatt, i've played players like cactuar, mew2king, mango, and darkrain. i don't just watch videos and say X char beats Y char, because that's stupid.
by insulting other people's knowledge of the game, you show that BIAS you like to mention so ****ing much.
and I (and anyone else in this thread) have never ****ing heard of you outside of your trolling escapades in the south forums, so obv. that means that you're bad at melee lol. money match me, or shut the **** up. you don't know **** about ****.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

not sure where in my posts I troll or say im even remotely good at this game(like everyone posting in this thread).

i make valid points.

me and the people you guys dont agree with(the "trolls") have just as much say so as you guys who think you know what you're talking about.

Do you want to MM?

What's your definition of being good at melee?

youre alright, but we'll never be at the same tourney, unless you come to a FL one. in that case we'll MM.

I'm legit Blatt Blvd. All I see you doing in here is trolling, so you can continue to rant all you want.

*hits ignore button*

lol ok. then im legit too

blatt, i've played players like cactuar, mew2king, mango, and darkrain. i don't just watch videos and say X char beats Y char, because that's stupid.
by insulting other people's knowledge of the game, you show that BIAS you like to mention so ****ing much.
and I (and anyone else in this thread) have never ****ing heard of you outside of your trolling escapades in the south forums, so obv. that means that you're bad at melee lol. money match me, or shut the **** up. you don't know **** about ****.

irony much?

nice calling me out on a MM YOU KNOW WILL NEVER HAPPEN(guys used to do it all the time, would say they would be at an OOS tourney I'd be at, then never show, I dont do OOS n e more).

and lol, why the **** do i care that you've played those guys?

ive never seen your name in a top spot.

ive played with lambchops, shiz, speedn, col bol, hungrybox, azen, ken, isai, and more.

see what i did there?

you sound alot like me.

 

[JBM falcon08]

i agree with doodah (if it is him)

fox is really good when he's played well but people jsut aren't playing him at the level others are playing falco, marth, sheik, peach, and puff. sometimes even falcon.

currently with the metagame we are in now he is dominate until a certain point, but his matchups are changing.

he isn't as good as he was when chars back in the day sucked. he's still good, but marth/falco are better than he is.

its my opinion though.

puff vs fox is at least even though.

PUFF GIMPS, RESTS, has easier smash DI than all the other chars because of how light she is, and she has amazing combos on fox/falco.

your telling me dying at 70% and being camped by lasers makes the matchup one sided? bs.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

actually he does. camp the **** out of sheik with lasers and make her approach. any smart falco isn't going to blindly approach into sheik's grabs. if you have good knowledge of the matchup, all you gotta do is camp it out. if you aren't camping at any point, falco's shine combos work very nicely against sheik. I rarely see sheiks getting low percent gimps off falco, it just doesn't happen (at least not anymore than what falco can do to sheik). also falco ***** sheik when she has to recover. not as much as fox, I'd say, but still. ledge hop to bair works well, dsmash works well too and if you can get off an fsmash, it's like a kill right there.

I think the matchup is probably even if falco plays too aggressively, but otherwise, you just gotta be patient and the matchup is in falco's favor. it's kind of like fox vs jigglypuff, only falco doesn't get punished as hard if he's too aggressive.

did you read my post?

sheik can camp falco back. if sheik hits 100% and falco starts camping her, she does not have to approach, which is very troubling for falco.

sheik can combo falco, and she controls the stage very well. 1 grab is lots of free tech chases, and at around 70% you can start dash attack->fair which is brutal on falco. sheik's tilts trade or beat all of falco's aerials.

if falco starts shield pressuring, sheik can get out easier than most other characters. she could WD back ftilt or simply sh nair which will hit before the dair and leads to tech chases/edge guards.

its a REALLY even match up, where either player can do basically whatever they want, as long as they know how to play their character.

and puff vs fox is in fox's favor big time. hbox and mango are just really good. its like ken beating drephen. sheik ***** marth, but its ken.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

so basically, foxes are losing to puff because they dont want to win?

ok

lets be serious for a second.

once again, because fox has been so dominant in the past, people completely overlook the possibility that maybe fox isn't as good as he used to be(not saying he's not top anymore, but maybe some of his matchups should be re-thought).

not to mention pretty much everyone in this thread has been playing melee for 2 years or less and have little to no exp with the matchup they're talking about(real experience>watching 1000+ videos and getting your own thoughts on the matchup).

fox is the best character in the game. its that simple. if you played top level players or anyone close to that, you would not even question that. how many players does zhu lose to? m2k? jman? they lose to 3-4 players in the WORLD. those players are ridiculously good, and have to play really really smart in order to win.

watch m2k and hbox (where m2k loses) and look how often fox has advantage and how puff almost never does. once she gets it, she has to basically take a stock right there or be behind in the match.

you really are trolling. you aren't debating anything, you are just attacking people or simply straw manning our arguments.

"And blatt, I've never doubted that fox is the best in the game, he's got like the best shuffle, he's fast, his lasers are too good, the reason I think puffs are beating foxes is beacuse of the way fox use to be able to walk all over everybody, he needs to take a much slower approach to puff matches and really camp her and I don't think fox players are willing to camp juss yet. "

you changed to

"so basically, foxes are losing to puff because they dont want to win?"

thats called a straw man. you can't simplify an argument like that, because you're no longer working with the original argument. go ahead, debate that foxes really do try to win, because we all know they are. the original post said nothing like that.

less troll please.

 

[unknown522]

LOL, ok.

says the bad at melee player.

youre right, m2k is just losing to both mangopuff and hungrypuff.

its just because m2k is bad i guess.

bias runs strong in this thread lol.

not to mention everyone who is posting isn't even good at melee lol(Canada, strong bad, otg).

all im wondering is why is fox so set in stone as the absolute best in this game(when he's clearly not as good as he was 3 years ago)?

BIAS, thats why.

$1000 Mm you ******.

not to mention pretty much everyone in this thread has been playing melee for 2 years or less and have little to no exp with the matchup they're talking about(real experience>watching 1000+ videos and getting your own thoughts on the matchup).

maybe you

 

[Blatt Blvd]

there's really no arguing with people who get destroyed by foxes/dont play fox.

jiggs can **** fox just as bad as fox can **** her.

just like with fox vs marth, fox has to attack eventually to get the kill after lasering the whole match.

saying m2k isnt playing the matchup right just means jiggs>fox(along with everyother fox that plays hungrypuff, mangopuff, darcpuff, and the new FL boy raistlin).

with time this can change(doubtful, puff is really good vs spacies)

i remember when everyone thought fox countered shiek like 80-20.

now its considered even or close to it.

and shiek used to RAAAAAAAAAAAPE Jiggs up until like a year and half ago. now everyone is on the jiggs>shiek bandwagon

how come every characters matchups can change cept for fox's?

ill stop for now, due to ignorance from people who really think fox is untouchable(which the last years worth of tourney has proven false)

$1000 Mm you ******.

lol, ok strong bad.

 

[unknown522]

who the hell said that fox was untouchable?

Anyways, now that I know where you're from, the posts all make sense.

Now I don't have to waste time.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

*ignores*

all im saying is when a fox matchup comes up(especially ones where TOP foxes are losing to top "insert character name")at least try to rethink it and not just say "well fox kills before 100% so fox>melee"

 

[unknown522]

For anyone who wants to be dumb and say that fox isn't the best character because of tourney results, look at any other competitive fighting game. 3rd strike has yun as the best character, but not many people have been winning tourneys with him. Doesn't mean he's not the best character. Same with Sagat in SF4 (since gouken is banned). No one was even winning tourneys with Gouken yet and he still got banned. Blazblue, not many people have been winning with Nu (I'm pretty sure no one has), but she's still the best.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

For anyone who wants to be dumb and say that fox isn't the best character because of tourney results, look at any other competitive fighting game. 3rd strike has yun as the best character, but not many people have been winning tourneys with him. Doesn't mean he's not the best character. Same with Sagat in SF4 (since gouken is banned). No one was even winning tourneys with Gouken yet and he still got banned. Blazblue, not many people have been winning with Nu (I'm pretty sure no one has), but she's still the best.

LOL, when did i say fox wasnt the best?

im talking about a matchup/matchups here(namely fox/jiggs).

i completely agree with fox being among the top 3 in the game(along with shiek and marth). his dominance just isnt as prevalent as it used to be.

and wtf at street fighter as an example? LOLOLOL.

sf soley uses matchups to determine their tier lists.

tourney results dont account for like 80% of the Street Fighter list like smash(both melee and brawl).

try failing less next post please.

 

[x After Dawn x]

It's times like this where the ignore button works very handy for trolls that have no clue what they're talking about.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

you guys keep saying the word "troll".

just cause i dont agree with you guys and your fox hate/bias?

LOL.

sorry im not a Nazi.

 

[john!]

LOL, ok.

says the bad at melee player.

youre right, m2k is just losing to both mangopuff and hungrypuff.

its just because m2k is bad i guess.

bias runs strong in this thread lol.

not to mention everyone who is posting isn't even good at melee lol(Canada, strong bad, otg).

all im wondering is why is fox so set in stone as the absolute best in this game(when he's clearly not as good as he was 3 years ago)?

BIAS, thats why.

 

[Divinokage]

LOL, when did i say fox wasnt the best?

im talking about a matchup/matchups here(namely fox/jiggs).

i completely agree with fox being among the top 3 in the game(along with shiek and marth). his dominance just isnt as prevalent as it used to be.

and wtf at street fighter as an example? LOLOLOL.

sf soley uses matchups to determine their tier lists.

tourney results dont account for like 80% of the Street Fighter list like smash(both melee and brawl).

try failing less next post please.

That's true, smash has to account matchups and levels as well which makes it x2 as hard to create matchup numbers. It's definitely not a traditional fighting game.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

That's true, smash has to account matchups and levels as well which makes it x2 as hard to create matchup numbers. It's definitely not a traditional fighting game.

i agree with this post

and john9 u just wasted about 10(most likely useless, biased) posts worth of bandwidth with that not funny pic, good job.

 

[Alphicans]

Wait, shouldn't tier lists be based 100% on match-ups anyways?

 

[Blatt Blvd]

yeah, but then shiek would be top and not fox.

and then the world would explode.

(by the way, im all for the current metagame tier list)

 

[john!]

and john9 u just wasted about 10(most likely useless, biased) posts worth of bandwidth with that not funny pic, good job.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So far, all you've done is insisted that because one Puff player is better than M2K, and another might be, that means that Puff goes even with Fox... disregarding the fact that either M2K might have trouble with Puff (lots of people have certain chars that they hate fighting) or that Fox players in general haven't learned how to deal with Jiggs yet. Also, top Puff players are very well practiced in the Fox matchup, because it's unequivocally considered to be one of her worst.

Unless you have more good reasons why Fox/Puff is even, it really is time for you to stop posting.

Also, calling other players bad when nobody's ever seen you play doesn't help your case.

 

[Devil Ray]

well, melee is unique bc tech skill is way more important than in other games. sf3 and hd remix has tech skill, but it's more about accurate timing. and smash is the only "fighter" you can suicide in : )

fox is just too hard to use. when's the last time a fox has won a national tournament??? too many ppl know the matchup.

 

[otg]

Also, calling other players bad when nobody's ever seen you play doesn't help your case.

You're entire post was 100% right, but I felt compelled to highlight this particular section.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So far, all you've done is insisted that because one Puff player is better than M2K, and another might be, that means that Puff goes even with Fox... disregarding the fact that either M2K might have trouble with Puff (lots of people have certain chars that they hate fighting) or that Fox players in general haven't learned how to deal with Jiggs yet. Also, top Puff players are very well practiced in the Fox matchup, because it's unequivocally considered to be one of her worst.

Unless you have more good reasons why Fox/Puff is even, it really is time for you to stop posting.

Also, calling other players bad when nobody's ever seen you play doesn't help your case.

first off, this game is how old?

jiggs has always been in the game, so has fox.

puff didnt JUST start winning(vs fox), its been a while now

"now knowing the matchup" sounds like a john(pun intended) if ive ever heard one.

i dont need any reasons for jiggs=fox when results have spoken for themselves (maybe in a few months when jiggs are still beating foxes you guys will maybe understand, most likely not though)

im not saying jiggs beats fox, i just think its a **** close match.

and lol, lots of people have seen me play(join date 2008).

and where did it become law that you cant call out (equally) bad players?

i think you guys really mistake the tone of my posts.

stop getting so angry.

it makes you guys look like hitler, really, just relax, no need to get worked up over a differnce in views.

 

[otg]

Because you have no reason to assume that anyone is bad unless you actually play them in person. You are making generalizations based on people disagreeing with you, and that is not a proper gauge of skill.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

lol really?

is that why like 8 people just tryed to MM(in thread and through PM LOL) me when they dont even know if im good or not(maybe im the M2K, in this case just play puff because he/I is/am bad at the matchup)?

i guess the canadian circle jerk is just bad too by that logic.

honestly otg, that was a dumb post because everyone assumes they're better than at least someone(even if theyve never played, just like by my posts, you guys assume im bad, which im not saying im not, HA).

 

[idea]

you guys keep saying the word "troll".

just cause i dont agree with you guys and your fox hate/bias?

LOL.

sorry im not a Nazi.

troll is a more varied term than that, though. it's partly that you disagree with everyone, but mostly it's how forceful you are about it. trolling is supposed to get a rise out of people, so if you make a point of saying things all smugly, it's to be expected that people will call you on that.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So far, all you've done is insisted that because one Puff player is better than M2K, and another might be, that means that Puff goes even with Fox... disregarding the fact that either M2K might have trouble with Puff (lots of people have certain chars that they hate fighting) or that Fox players in general haven't learned how to deal with Jiggs yet. Also, top Puff players are very well practiced in the Fox matchup, because it's unequivocally considered to be one of her worst.

Unless you have more good reasons why Fox/Puff is even, it really is time for you to stop posting.

Also, calling other players bad when nobody's ever seen you play doesn't help your case.

i agree, this is a really good post =P

 

[Blatt Blvd]

forceful??

WTF??!!

LOL.

everyone who posts anything in here has a smug tone to thier post(dawn and his matchup thread bouncers come to mind especially)

im no more forceful than anyone else in this thread.

 

[adumbrodeus]

there's really no arguing with people who get destroyed by foxes/dont play fox.

jiggs can **** fox just as bad as fox can **** her.

just like with fox vs marth, fox has to attack eventually to get the kill after lasering the whole match.

saying m2k isnt playing the matchup right just means jiggs>fox(along with everyother fox that plays hungrypuff, mangopuff, darcpuff, and the new FL boy raistlin).

with time this can change(doubtful, puff is really good vs spacies)

i remember when everyone thought fox countered shiek like 80-20.

now its considered even or close to it.

and shiek used to RAAAAAAAAAAAPE Jiggs up until like a year and half ago. now everyone is on the jiggs>shiek bandwagon

how come every characters matchups can change cept for fox's?

ill stop for now, due to ignorance from people who really think fox is untouchable(which the last years worth of tourney has proven false)



lol, ok strong bad.

...

OR the puffs are just good enough to overcome the match-up.


Sample size one = No argument.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

lol blatt, youre so silly. you have provided absolutely no evidence for ANYTHING you've said in this thread, while every other person has used tons of evidence to disprove everything you've said.

and nobody knows who you are, yet you come in expecting your opinion to mean more than fact. join date (late)2008 combined with everything else you've said in this thread says that you are either a noob or a troll.

which do you want to be blatt? a noob or a troll? either way, i suggest you stop trying to "debate" in this thread.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

i cant reply to every post, so im done for now.

the ignorance in this thread is just too much for me right now lol.

have fun making a chart that will never be accurate because you all lose to fox.

*unsubscribes*

and sveet you fail too, tourney results speak for themselves.

 

[otg]

I always thought Fox was at the top of the tier list because he was really ****ing good, turns out it's just cause I get ***** by him... oh wait.

I also like how every single one of blatt's posts were so hypocritical and ironic. the internet is way too good.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

lol tourney results speak for the players, and say very little about the characters.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I am almost 100% sure that all the Jigglypuffs consider Fox a horrible matchup if they play gay.

 

[skrach8]

blatt.... fox is just **** sauce...... his tier spot is not gunna go down because of puff, though i do believe she should be moved up at least maybe one spot... cant really remember her spot at this moment....

but anyway. fox's meta game is always changing. like drill shine jc grabs, i mean cmon, its just sick... marth is the same way but in a less technical way. he just has a great set up. so those spots are not gunna change. as a matter a fact. most if not all the top tiers are right where they belong.... ur a good kid. but ya gotta let it go.

ok....nm disregard all of the above

blatt ur right bout fox not being as dominant.... but thats only because everyone should know that matchup by now. everyone can play fox.... maybe not well like colbol, jman, m2k etc.....

but the part bout his metagame constantly evolving still stands.... if every person in the U.S. started picking up puff....we would all be experts at the match as well. same goes for any other character.

 

[-ACE-]

I am almost 100% sure that all the Jigglypuffs consider Fox a horrible matchup if they play gay.

This is correct. And Foxes SHOULD play "gay" against Puff. It's common knowledge.

Fox is a better character overall, and beats Puff in the matchup. Puff just forces Fox to really be on his game since she can punish his mistakes like (almost) no other. If Fox isn't making any mistakes (l-cancels, spacing, textbook combos, etc.) and lasering as much as possible, it's a very tough one for jiggs.