Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[-ACE-]

Not to be picky, but I don't think Ganon vs DK is even.. more like slightly in Ganon's favor.

Also I don't think Ganon wrecks Luigi or Link quite as bad as 65/35, or Y. Link as bad as 70/30

I'm thinkin like 60/40 for L&L, and 65/35 for Y. L.

Glad to see Ganon no longer ***** ICs 65/35 lol

 

[Comrade]

Is it just me, or does Zelda have an easier time against falco than most low/bottom tier? Think about it, falco's primary attack is his dair, thus his hitbox is below/right/left. On the other hand, zelda's primary attack is her fair/bair, which out prioritizes falco. Also, zelda's running A has the range and priority to interrupt falco a LOT.

Now, zelda still gets her *** handed to her by falco, especially when he gets her in the air, so falco still has the advantage. but maybe that advantage isnt as big as it is for say falco/bowser

EDIT: meant dair, not dsmash

 

[Strong Badam]

i do think that ganon vs. DK is even. both chars just space aerials against eachother and I don't see how Ganon has a real advantage over him.

 

[Lovage]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=2933012&postcount=2

i knew u had to walk!!!!!

 

[adumbrodeus]

Is it just me, or does Zelda have an easier time against falco than most low/bottom tier? Think about it, falco's primary attack is his downsmash, thus his hitbox is below/right/left. On the other hand, zelda's primary attack is her fair/bair, which out prioritizes falco. Also, zelda's running A has the range and priority to interrupt falco a LOT.

Now, zelda still gets her *** handed to her by falco, especially when he gets her in the air, so falco still has the advantage. but maybe that advantage isnt as big as it is for say falco/bowser

Ummm, since when is falco's primary attack his downsmash?

 

[Vulcan55]

Ummm, since when is falco's primary attack his downsmash?

All the time, man.
You jus' aint at a high enough level of play.

 

[-ACE-]

i do think that ganon vs. DK is even. both chars just space aerials against eachother and I don't see how Ganon has a real advantage over him.

I agree that it's close to even, but DK's lack of a decent fair hurts him imo, as he's basically reduced to spacing bairs and trying to get inside so he can combo. Ganon's edgeguarding options on DK are better than DK's are on Ganon (reverse uair, dair, wizard's foot spike). Ganon can also cg DK 21-69.

 

[Comrade]

Ummm, since when is falco's primary attack his downsmash?

****, haha, meant dair

 

[wool]

Yea, I'd say 25/75 at least. Shuffl'ed up airs lead to grabs, down tilt leads to grabs, shffled fairs lead to down tilt. Down tilt has great range and is very quick. Chain throws are a great way to try to start to the match off, and the fact that f smash is so beast when it connects, and since you can fsmash after an upthrow and down tilt at a lot of different percents, makes for a back and forth fight honestly. Roy has a better matchup with fox than some lower tiered characters for sure.

That all seems fine but I think the major problem is that if the Fox shields the shffl-ed fair (or better yet spot dodges it) Roy is going to get shined->usmash/whatever. shffl fairs to downtilt doesnt even work that well anyway because after the fair you are pretty likely to get SG-ed before you can do the down tilt.

But I agree with you on the fsmash it is pretty **** beastly. I do think its a little harsh on Roy. A 20/80 seems more likely but I am no expert on either characters.

@Comrade:
Yeah Zelda does a pretty good job against Falco (for a low tier) but personally I still think its hyped up a bit too much for Zelda. A good Zelda has got a pretty annoying defensive game to a Falco, but when that Falco gets off its down right ****

 

[Smoke and smash]

Hmm. Well fair has good range, if spaced (by reatreating the fair especially) it can't be shield grabbed unless the roy is pushing too far. And spacing works fine to connect to to a D tilt since d tilt has enough range behind it as well. Roy's range on fox is what helps so much. His grab/down tilt/fair/ all have nice range and are the primary moves in the matchup.

 

[Divinokage]

I agree that it's close to even, but DK's lack of a decent fair hurts him imo, as he's basically reduced to spacing bairs and trying to get inside so he can combo. Ganon's edgeguarding options on DK are better than DK's are on Ganon (reverse uair, dair, wizard's foot spike). Ganon can also cg DK 21-69.

Ganon has advantage over DK. 60-40 or 55-45.

DK does have good combos on Ganon on stage but as soon as DK is off stage its pretty much a garanteed edgeguard for Ganon. On stage for Ganon against DK.. well it's easy shield stabs and grabs too since hes so big.. you can CG DK too. I don't know what else much to say because also Ganon outspaces DK meaning DK doesn't have much tools to approach Ganon's huge range. But ya DK's grab on Ganon is pretty devastating even with good DI.

You can't say don't get grabbed because that's ridiculous lol.

i do think that ganon vs. DK is even. both chars just space aerials against eachother and I don't see how Ganon has a real advantage over him.

Well I sort of explained it on top.. if anyone wants to try DK vs my Ganon, go for it and ill show you why Ganon has advantage. I'd think PKM or Mexican would agree. I saw PKM use Ganon on Mexican as well.. PKM ***** him mostly lol.

Not to be picky, but I don't think Ganon vs DK is even.. more like slightly in Ganon's favor.

Also I don't think Ganon wrecks Luigi or Link quite as bad as 65/35, or Y. Link as bad as 70/30

I'm thinkin like 60/40 for L&L, and 65/35 for Y. L.

Glad to see Ganon no longer ***** ICs 65/35 lol

Eh Ganon vs both Links is pretty ****.. Sure they can camp but you can just wait for an opportunity to approach.. also CG lol. Well I can't wait much ICs other than I crushed everyone except Chu in which I need to play him in order for me to have better understanding of the matchup or have more experience in it. Which is why I can't explain it well... Though from the others I played, you simply shield pressure ICs with careful spacing and you win.. because then you own Nana and keep Popo away lol.

Yea, I'd say 25/75 at least. Shuffl'ed up airs lead to grabs, down tilt leads to grabs, shffled fairs lead to down tilt. Down tilt has great range and is very quick. Chain throws are a great way to try to start to the match off, and the fact that f smash is so beast when it connects, and since you can fsmash after an upthrow and down tilt at a lot of different percents, makes for a back and forth fight honestly. Roy has a better matchup with fox than some lower tiered characters for sure.

Theory Roy is the only character that you can't discuss.. sure he looks good on paper but in practice hes complete trash.

 

[Smoke and smash]

Dude I'm not talking out of my ***. Everything I have been talking about, I have been talking from experience. I mean if you can't play Roy properly, well than that's just you. And if nobody you played against knows how to play Roy, well than yea you are going to assume this is just theory.

Neo had the right idea, too bad he didn't keep evolving his Roy.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Neo went Marth in tournament mostly, I hear.

There may be a reason for this.

Roy's only okay against Fox on FD.

 

[Smoke and smash]

Marth is better, this is extremely obvious. I am just saying Roy vs Fox is not a 15/85, not even close. I don't think the community has paid enough attention to Roy and you just pass off anything I say as theory. Same goes for Falcon and even falco. The matchup is in fox's favor, but they are not auto wins if the Roy knows how to abuse his strengths against fast fallers.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think most of what you say is heavily dependent on the Roy being allowed to play defensively against a character who has one of the best projectiles in the game and one of the best dash dance camping games.

I'm not sure how platforms really affect Roy, but they don't seem good against Fox's mobility and better aerials. Losing a chain grab also kind of sucks.

I think Cactuar posted at some point saying he disliked Falcon Roy on FD because of limited approach options, so that may also be something to consider with regards to Fox Roy on platform levels, although I'm not sure the matchups are really comparable; Fox's gun, faster aerials, waveland, better jumps, and Shine probably make his platform game much better than Falcon's and probably a bit of a hindrance.

 

[Smoke and smash]

True. But a Roy who knows how to space properly and knows the right ways to setup, will also know the matchup well enough to the point where he can read the fox good enough to react accordingly. Backwards wavedashes while down tiliting and retreating fairs are good at countering a lot of the things fox can do. Mix this with grabs and shield grabs and fox is in for a fight.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Retreat D-tilt and retreat aerial is good at countering a lot of stuff Fox can do, yes, but then Fox keeps shooting you.

Reading someone applies both ways, it's not fair for Roy to be allowed to "read" his opponent but Fox can't. And, in terms of punishment, I really do think that Fox punishes noticeably harder than Roy does on non-FD levels.

 

[Smoke and smash]

But you see, retreating fair is exactly what prevents fox from shield grabbing.

Edit: you changed your post nevermind.

 

[unknown522]

But you see, retreating fair is exactly what prevents fox from shield grabbing.

if only it did.

 

[Divinokage]

Dude I'm not talking out of my ***. Everything I have been talking about, I have been talking from experience. I mean if you can't play Roy properly, well than that's just you. And if nobody you played against knows how to play Roy, well than yea you are going to assume this is just theory.

Neo had the right idea, too bad he didn't keep evolving his Roy.

No.. all the Roys I've played against gets 4 stocked because Roy sucks.. and that includes Sethlon.

 

[Smoke and smash]

*shrug*

I understand you all have it set in stone that roy is terrible, but I'm just saying that the matchups aren't as bad as you would think. I don't think anybody really takes roy seriously, and therefor his game will never evolve. But he can actually do things, is all I'm saying, things against fast fallers in particular, which allow him to compete to some extent.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Yes, and what you aren't recognizing is that fast fallers have more that they can do to Roy.

 

[4% APR]

He isnt saying that roy beats fox, he's just saying that he does better than 15-85

 

[KirbyKaze]

In fairness he's probably a lot better than Zelda, YLink, and Kirby and other horrible characters at the matchup so I don't see harm in bumping him to 80/20 or 75/25 or something.

 

[-ACE-]

I'd say 75/25. I think some peoples' opinions get pressured by the amount of great Fox players that exist vs the amount of great Roy players that exist. Roy has good options against Fox; it's just Fox... so Roy might not get to use them that often lol.

 

[x After Dawn x]

*shrug*

I understand you all have it set in stone that roy is terrible, but I'm just saying that the matchups aren't as bad as you would think. I don't think anybody really takes roy seriously, and therefor his game will never evolve. But he can actually do things, is all I'm saying, things against fast fallers in particular, which allow him to compete to some extent.

Who are you and why is your account under a month old? You're starting to sound more like that Pichu insane crazy guy lol. Only with Roy instead of Pichu.

 

[Divinokage]

*shrug*

I understand you all have it set in stone that roy is terrible, but I'm just saying that the matchups aren't as bad as you would think. I don't think anybody really takes roy seriously, and therefor his game will never evolve. But he can actually do things, is all I'm saying, things against fast fallers in particular, which allow him to compete to some extent.

Nobody takes Roy seriously? Tell that to Neo and Sethlon please.

 

[Rain(ame)]

Nobody takes Roy seriously? Tell that to Neo and Sethlon please.

You forgot GAPeach as well.

hmm...not as bad as 85-15, but not exactly GREATLY better. This is a bit of a touchy subject.

 

[Dark Hart]

guys, let's just put it at 80-20 and make him happy?

 

[Strong Badam]

Ganon has advantage over DK. 60-40 or 55-45.

DK does have good combos on Ganon on stage but as soon as DK is off stage its pretty much a garanteed edgeguard for Ganon. On stage for Ganon against DK.. well it's easy shield stabs and grabs too since hes so big.. you can CG DK too. I don't know what else much to say because also Ganon outspaces DK meaning DK doesn't have much tools to approach Ganon's huge range. But ya DK's grab on Ganon is pretty devastating even with good DI.

You can't say don't get grabbed because that's ridiculous lol.



Well I sort of explained it on top.. if anyone wants to try DK vs my Ganon, go for it and ill show you why Ganon has advantage. I'd think PKM or Mexican would agree. I saw PKM use Ganon on Mexican as well.. PKM ***** him mostly lol.

Shield stabs can more or less be dealt with by light shielding... ledgeteching also works well against Ganon's dair edgeguards (MEX ledgetechs so well o.o). DK's bair has really good range, and it becomes a battle of who can space bair or fair better <.< DK's dtilt edgeguards Ganon's up-b really well and forces him high, which allows a forward smash.
I don't really care to argue over a 5 point difference so whatev, I just find it even from DK's point of view.
I would like to play you if I ever got the chance.

 

[-ACE-]

ledgeteching also works well against Ganon's dair edgeguards.

That's only if Ganon plays it safe waiting on stage, he can easily just jump out and dair DK's up-b (since meteor canceling isn't much of an option for DK). And even then, Ganon has a chance to either spike DK or knock him back out during his up-b that follows the tech.

DK's bair has really good range, and it becomes a battle of who can space bair or fair better

This is true, but DK essentially only has bair. Ganon's bair, fair, and uair are all very effective when spaced properly.

DK's dtilt edgeguards Ganon's up-b really well and forces him high, which allows a forward smash.

It doesn't necessarily force him to go high though. Ganon can easily ledgetech (or walltech) to up-B, or walltech to bair to get DK away from the edge and ensure a safe recovery.

 

[Figgz]

huh, im hungry no marth

 

[Archangel]

Nobody takes Roy seriously? Tell that to Neo and Sethlon please.

I second that. They make me want to play Roy.

 

[Divinokage]

Shield stabs can more or less be dealt with by light shielding... ledgeteching also works well against Ganon's dair edgeguards (MEX ledgetechs so well o.o). DK's bair has really good range, and it becomes a battle of who can space bair or fair better <.< DK's dtilt edgeguards Ganon's up-b really well and forces him high, which allows a forward smash.
I don't really care to argue over a 5 point difference so whatev, I just find it even from DK's point of view.
I would like to play you if I ever got the chance.

Are you going to RoM 2 or Pound 4?

 

[Dark Hart]

Are you going to RoM 2 or Pound 4?

I'm going to both! I'm going to both!

 

[Rain(ame)]

guys, let's just put it at 80-20 and make him happy?

lol, it's beter than 85-15...I think tha's fair, xD.

 

[Divinokage]

lol, it's beter than 85-15...I think tha's fair, xD.

I don't know.. I'm probably 100-0 against Roys right now lol.

 

[Dark Hart]

I think it's 100-0 against Roy too.... **** it, let's make it 100-0 just to piss that guy off.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I really, really wish this was in single digit numbers right now or on the 0-4 difficulty scale, where 0 is even and 1 would be small advantage, 2 would be advantage, 3 is strong advantage, and 4 is **** matchup.

I'm only saying that Roy should be bumped vs Fox because I don't think he's as bad as other characters vs Fox. That's really it. I think he's about as bad as YLink / Yoshi at the matchup, or better at it because of dash dance grab --> other move(s). And the occasional D-tilt --> other move(s) combo. He can also do stupid range stuff to Fox approaches because he has a disjointed weapon, albeit it's just a roll of paper, and they only wind up doing 13 damage tops (and typically it's much lower; around the 3-7% range).

 

[Smoke and smash]

I think it's 100-0 against Roy too.... **** it, let's make it 100-0 just to piss that guy off.

Your too funny.