Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[Raistlin]

This is correct. And Foxes SHOULD play "gay" against Puff. It's common knowledge.

Fox is a better character overall, and beats Puff in the matchup. Puff just forces Fox to really be on his game since she can punish his mistakes like (almost) no other. If Fox isn't making any mistakes (l-cancels, spacing, textbook combos, etc.) and lasering as much as possible, it's a very tough one for jiggs.

Yeah, if Fox just runs away the whole match and plays uber gay, it's really **** hard. Also, one grab equals like 30 damage, and it's so easy to grab Jigglypuff as Fox because of his speed. Since once she reachs 60 she's pretty much dead the next time any of his very spammable kill moves hits her, getting grabbed is not good. You can't dodge every laser, and when they shoot all the time, damage racks up fast. It is not a fun match-up.

 

[idea]

jigglypuff is kind of an inherently "gay" character, so it doesn't really make sense to try to play "legit" fox against her =P

i mean, all the top tiers have that sort of unfair strength to them, but jigglypuff's is just so silly and (i assume) irritating. also she has a natural resistance to momentum shifts. you can't really go into awesome combo mode against a balloon.

 

[Lovage]

no, but hungrypuff is almost as good as mangopuff

hahahahahaahhaaha

put down the crack pipe dude

 

[x After Dawn x]

hahahahahaahhaaha

put down the crack pipe dude

whatchu talkin about? you think hungrybox is better than mango...?

 

[-ACE-]

whatchu talkin about? you think hungrybox is better than mango...?

Lol no, he's stating that Mango is better than Hungry, plus some WC bias.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Uh yeah, I already stated that Mango's puff is better than Hungry's puff, all I said was Hungrybox was still a top player and I'm fairly sure his Jigglypuff is closer to being as good as Mango's than any other player. And I think Genesis' results reflect that.

 

[Dark Hart]

Why is everyone arguing that Fox players can't deal with Puff because they're not playing the match-up correctly? I can't believe I'm saying this, but shooting lasers and u-throw->u-air is easier said than done. M2K, JMan, Lucky, ColBol, all of these amazing top tier fox players can't seem to beat puff. (Besides ColBol sometimes but he basically lives with HBox) And you guys are going to tell me it's just because Mango and HBox are just that good and that fox players don't know match-up? They choose puff for a reason. Can we please stop going with what should possible theoretically happen and go with what's actually happening in today's meta-game? I'm not saying that Puff beats Fox, I personally think it's an even match-up, but let's just be a little more realistic with this.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Why is everyone arguing that Fox players can't deal with Puff because they're not playing the match-up correctly? I can't believe I'm saying this, but shooting lasers and u-throw->u-air is easier said than done. M2K, JMan, Lucky, ColBol, all of these amazing top tier fox players can't seem to beat puff. (Besides ColBol sometimes but he basically lives with HBox) And you guys are going to tell me it's just because Mango and HBox are just that good and that fox players don't know match-up? They choose puff for a reason. Can we please stop going with what should possible theoretically happen and go with what's actually happening in today's meta-game? I'm not saying that Puff beats Fox, I personally think it's an even match-up, but let's just be a little more realistic with this.

The argument is and should be that Fox players have the advantage and whether or not top players have won recently doesn't change the fact that Fox is a better character with more options and an advantage in the matchup.

M2k has more of a Mangoplex than a puffplex. Mango has beaten him with his Falco as well I'm pretty sure, not just Puff. Hbox is an amazing player and this is known.

Yes, lasers --> uthrow or usmash is harder said than done. Everything is against amazing players. To say that puff goes even or has an advantage implies that she has an easier time wiht the matchup than Fox, which is definitely not true. Fox is the hardest character in the game to outspace, even for puff, due to his speed and ability to punish. On top of this we have Fox's best KO potential in the game as well, and the result is Fox with the advantage. Because Mango and Box have won doesn't make their character better. From what I can see it is mostly people who don't play Puff that are arguing for it going even. While people with the experience necessary say it is Fox's advantage. I don't have enough experience to say, but from my POV it looks pretty obvious that Fox is better off.

 

[idea]

it's too bad there are so few puff mains, cause you can't really collect data on three guys (darc is good too)...especially when one usually goes falco.

then there's also the fact that a lot of people hate jiggs. fox's are probably used to being able to approach people more safely, so that'll throw them off. the matchup is way campier than most people are willing to play. so psychological advantage there.

and finally, like john9 person said, a lot of puffs have practice in the matchup because everyone and their brother goes fox against jiggs. i really wish someone would pick falco against me now and then but it almost never happens. jiggs just have to be good at that matchup or they'll never do well in tournament.

that said, i see your point and it's entirely possible that people are overrating how hard the matchup is. BUT i still say it's around 6-4.

----------------------------------
i just thought of something, but consider this separately, anyone: maybe looking at current top level play sometimes is actually a bad way to go. there are only a few top level players, so our results from looking at how they play are naturally going to be skewed. mew2king gets nervous and such...mango doesn't really play jiggs like a jiggs main anymore...shiz keeps approaching people when, strategically, he shouldn't. i mean, i think this is the reason why a theoretical matchup chart is important - because the fact that all our best players are human screws things up.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If we do a matchup chart based on what happens in tournament Puff beats everyone like 65/35 or worse except Fox which is probably even or 55/45 in her favour.

 

[Dark Hart]

I'm not saying go with only tournament results, but put them in more consideration. The reason I say this is because Mango and HBox keep ****** and every still says that puff can be beat easily, but I'm not seeing results if you catch my pun.

 

[unknown522]

update should be coming between now and a few hours.

 

[SpaceFalcon]

Didn't read any posts, but looking at this list makes me wonder.

yep makes me wonder.

 

[otg]

If we do a matchup chart based on what happens in tournament Puff beats everyone like 65/35 or worse except Fox which is probably even or 55/45 in her favour.

BAN JIGGZZZZZZZZZZ

lol

/10metaknights

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm not saying go with only tournament results, but put them in more consideration. The reason I say this is because Mango and HBox keep ****** and every still says that puff can be beat easily, but I'm not seeing results if you catch my pun.

mango and hbox doing well is indicative of their player skill, and not their character's ability. example: bum or taj doing well in tournament doesn't mean that DK or Mewtwo are good characters, it means that Bum and Taj are good players.

 

[Doomblaze]

Fox can kill jiggs at what, like 70 dmg?
ive killed my friend at 52 when he didnt di, but that doesnt count.
Hungrybox is definitely not as good as mango, but he is plain amazing, knows the fox matchup so well.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Why are we even discussing this? I think it's pretty obvious players represent their own individual skill and not so much that of their character. Like Strong Bad said, Taj doing well with Mewtwo is not indicative of how good Mewtwo is, it's more of a reflection of his own skill. I thought this was established a LONG time ago, or at least before Blatt started trolling here again. >_>

Let's try and get back on topic now. How about Falco vs Peach? Someone care to elaborate the matchup? I wouldn't doubt Peach being 55-45 / 60-40 with Falco in the matchup, but I haven't played a good Peach so it'd be interesting to hear what the matchup's like.

 

[unknown522]

falco has a hard time camping peach, because his jumps suck for camping her. She can float high enough so she goes over the SHL and under the DJDL. Her FC'f moves are safe on block even at that height, though she is kind of vulnerable while floating, if she gets hit first. Peaches float back anyway, so that they don't get punished for leaving themselves open. She can also get out of his pressure easily with up-b and n-air OoS. On platformed stages, falco can do 0-50 combos, but then has a hard time killing her and racking more damage. Peach also has the upper hand in edgeguarding in the matchup. She has more priority than falco on most moves and d-smash is really good on falco. u-throw -> d-smash is a 0-30/40 combo guaranteed and she gets a free tech chase out of it too.

Between lasers and high jumps, falco can edgeguard peach really well, but not as well as she does on falco. He can get good d-air kills randomly throughout the match as a surprise, or from some combo.

I dunno, I've played Vwins a lot in nthe matchup (not in singles tourney, becasue I'm always fox).

 

[JPOBS]

peach has better edgeguards falco has trouble edgeguarding her.

he gets gimped easily if he goes off stage. She can float at a perfect height to avoid lasers. dsmash ruins him. chain grab on FD.

that being said its not all that bad. when she's floating at the perfect hieght to avoid lasers, thats all she can do, she's not a threat at that height unless she comes down with a fair or something, but when she is doing the sweetspot float, its not a big deal to falco. Also, this is only really effective on FD. On platform stages, falco can use the platforms to camp her well and vary his laser height to hit her out of the normally unhittable float.

Sheild pressure isnt that hard, she can nair oos and b-up but for the most part if you're doing it right you're ok. also, crossing up throguh her sheild and pressuring the back is really good.

at mid percents falco and do full hop dairs to uptilts rinse repeat until she either techs or eats a dmash or fsmash. At low percents, forget te shine (unless they sheild) and just go dair happy for easy damage.

imo, the key to recovering vs peach is to go below the stage, unless u can sweetspot a B-over but even then she's likely to float out and hit you. If you go low, you can tech literally anything se tries to hit you with extremely easily. all she can do is edgehog to defend in which case you mix up your recovery.

i'd say even but it may be 5 points in either direction, its a really close matchup imo.

 

[unknown522]

Jpobs, you live in london atm?

 

[JPOBS]

yea, sup?

10withsauc3s

 

[unknown522]

****, I wish I had a car I would drive to your place.

 

[sauc3]

****, I wish I had a car I would drive to your place.

anytime ryan, anytime,

im comin to toronto around thanksgiving so if the toronto guys wanted to smash then let me know

 

[unknown522]

alright. Post in the GTA thread when the time comes.

 

[-ACE-]

u-throw -> d-smash is a 0-30/40 combo guaranteed and she gets a free tech chase out of it too.

Really? I would think DI'ing the dsmash up would get you out of this. You should only receive one hit from the dsmash, and since you'd get tossed out of it during the beginning of the dsmash's duration, you should have time to tech roll away when you land without getting punished. I'm not at my house right now so I can't test it.

 

[Lovage]

u can di away from uthrow dsmash at super low percents

i am 93% sure of this

 

[x After Dawn x]

^ yeah I think so too. probably easier to do with fox since he falls faster and can catch a tech with full DI from the throw before peach's dsmash can catch him.

 

[worldjem7]

First post updated. Explanations coming soon.

 

[lordvaati]

mango and hbox doing well is indicative of their player skill, and not their character's ability. example: bum or taj doing well in tournament doesn't mean that DK or Mewtwo are good characters, it means that Bum and Taj are good players.

speaking of Bum, he's classified as one of the people skilled with a low tier, but isn't DK mid? or doe he have the PAL version?

also speaking of Bum, he kicked my a** last time I played Smash 64 online.

EDIT: Holy crap@ Samus. and now everyone below M2 is bottom? ouch.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Finally, Sheik is 60-40 with Marth and Falco is 55-45 with Sheik. I'm liking that. However, I don't agree with Marth being switched to 50-50 with Falco, he seems to be 55-45 with Falco. I'll explain later when I have time.

 

[Dark Hart]

I agree, though I hate putting numbers to match-ups, 55/45 Marth's favor seem more accurate than 50/50

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Although Falco can get gimped by Marth easier, he can control the match much better than Falco can. He can force marth to the air with lasers and make it harder for Marth to get that crucial grab. m2k showed at Tipped Off again that Fox or Falco, when he gets a grab it is a stock. I'm pretty sure that is what the chart is reflecting.

 

[Dark Hart]

I was at TO5, just wanted to say that...

 

[Strong Badam]

speaking of Bum, he's classified as one of the people skilled with a low tier, but isn't DK mid? or doe he have the PAL version?

DK was low tier for a million years until the most recent tier list, which was after Bum quit Melee anyway. <_< DK should still be low tier, anyways; the SBR isn't really accurate in placing aside from the top and bottom 5 characters, IMO.

 

[wool]

Finally 15-85 Pichu-Falco.

 

[KirbyKaze]

u can di away from uthrow dsmash at super low percents

i am 93% sure of this

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=2933012&postcount=2

 

[Smoke and smash]

I don't think Roy vs Fox is that bad of a matchup for Roy. Fox has a clear advantage, but Roy definitely has easy setups for f-smash (upthrow/downtilt). Edgeguarding is somewhat easy too using DownB and neutral B.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I don't think Roy vs Fox is that bad of a matchup for Roy. Fox has a clear advantage, but Roy definitely has easy setups for f-smash (upthrow/downtilt). Edgeguarding is somewhat easy too using DownB and neutral B.

Yeah agreed. He's no Marth, but it's not 15-85. I would probably say about 25-75, or maybe 20-80.

Also, nice to see that Falco vs Pika is now 60-40 instead of 65-35. =) This matchup chart is turning out very nice.

 

[Smoke and smash]

Yeah agreed. He's no Marth, but it's not 15-85. I would probably say about 25-75, or maybe 20-80.

Also, nice to see that Falco vs Pika is now 60-40 instead of 65-35. =) This matchup chart is turning out very nice.

Yea, I'd say 25/75 at least. Shuffl'ed up airs lead to grabs, down tilt leads to grabs, shffled fairs lead to down tilt. Down tilt has great range and is very quick. Chain throws are a great way to try to start to the match off, and the fact that f smash is so beast when it connects, and since you can fsmash after an upthrow and down tilt at a lot of different percents, makes for a back and forth fight honestly. Roy has a better matchup with fox than some lower tiered characters for sure.

 

[lordvaati]

Yeah agreed. He's no Marth, but it's not 15-85. I would probably say about 25-75, or maybe 20-80.

Also, nice to see that Falco vs Pika is now 60-40 instead of 65-35. =) This matchup chart is turning out very nice.

if it keeps going at this rate, chart #10 will be the definitive chart that everyone pretty much agrees with.