Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[idea]

I increased this to out of 100 for flexibility in precision. If a match-up isn't exactly 6-4 or isn't exactly 7-3 there was a middle ground for those kinds of disputes. It seems, though, that people are arguing more about that 0.5% than significant differences that would actually need debate in match-ups.

This is what the chart looks like if we used out-of-10:

because at the end of the day this is a chart for humans to look at, i think this one is better. it also feels better. i've never been playing someone and thought "this matchup is 55-45" but 6-4 is much easier to have a sense for.

so thanks for looking into a different format despite not really wanting to =P

 

[KAOSTAR]

If you think about it as a percentage rather than two numbers that sums 100, Its alot more general.

Thats good enough to a "ball park" figure to say ohhh well pichu should win about 10-15 percent of the time vs marth. Whatever is on the chart is just the closest compromise or closest percentage to the general consensus.

Like previously said, its very easy to take those numbers and generalize it in your head. If its in percents, each individual can process the matchup in their head in a way that makes sense using raw data.

I wouldnt be opposed if the chart simply represented the win percentages(possibly a range, ie 10-15), its a cleaner look and easier to read at a glance. With a range you can better account for the difference in play styles with the med. being the closest to ideal playstyle for that match.

 

[Dark Hart]

Can someone explain the IC/Samus match-up to me? I don't play either of them and just personally don't understand how the match-up is that heavily in Samus's favor.

 

[KirbyKaze]

A part of it is missiles. Nana doesn't shield at the same time as Popo (6 frame difference) so she often gets hit by them if they try to waveshield through. If they try to go through via air, they're pretty open to Samus chucking a Nair or something at them (or more missiles).

F-tilt is somewhat difficult for them to punish from shield, too, which is kind of nice (they can Bair out of shield if their back is turned). If Samus lands a D-smash or D-tilt it is likely that they are split up and they don't have any long inescapable grab combos on Samus either except wobbling and ledge chain grab.

Samus gimps Nana really well because her missiles (and other moves, but mainly missiles) put Nana in tumble even at relatively low percent and Nana doesn't wiggle out of tumble. So if she lacks her double jump, she's usually dead, because she can't catch the Belay or go up with Popo in the squall if she's in tumble.

I don't know if the matchup's changed in recent years, but it was considered bad and nobody's really talked about it since so we just left it.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

At least based on my experience with Hugo, it doesn't seem that bad.

Missiles are obnoxious, but can be dealt with. It's not very hard to just light-shield missiles. If you intercept the missile with synched ice blocks, one ice block will continue towards Samus and potentially create an opening. Plus, if you're feeling ballsy, you can just wavedash -> fsmash such that Popo takes the missile and Nana's fsmash connects.

Ftilt can be hard to deal with, but if Samus ftilts your shield, it's easy to retreat and try approaching again later. Also, belay OoS -> blizzard can be used to punish ftilt, although it's kind of gimmicky. Jab cancels are a much more obnoxious form of shield pressure that I don't believe can be punished if done properly.

Shielded dsmashes can definitely be punished with wavedash -> grab, which is problematic for Samus since ICs have a pretty decent grab game against her; dthrow -> charged usmash can KO at pretty low percentages, and even if you can't KO her, you can get her above you, which is a bad position for Samus. Handoffs are as good as they always are.

Samus does **** Nana pretty badly, though. I don't know what ratio I'd give the match-up, but it's totally winnable.

 

[worldjem7]

because at the end of the day this is a chart for humans to look at, i think this one is better. it also feels better. i've never been playing someone and thought "this matchup is 55-45" but 6-4 is much easier to have a sense for.

so thanks for looking into a different format despite not really wanting to =P

It's technically the same format, I just put it to 100 to eliminate decimals.

 

[Reioumu]

Question... How is Samus vs Ice Climbers 75-25? And tied with Peach for that matchup?

 

[unknown522]

read KK's post.

****, I haven't been on a comp for about a week. time to look back.


Edit: after reading the last 2 pages, eric what are you doing with the chart now?

 

[Nintendude]

ICs vs. Samus is just a small advantage for Samus imo. Samus just has to play keep-away the whole time, and she's pretty good at it since she can throw so much garbage at you. However, once you get inside and give her less breathing room she can have a hard time avoiding wavedash -> grab punishment from shielded attacks. Even without wobbling down-throw up-smash kills Samus at relatively low %, negating Samus's recovery advantage. ICs actually aren't that bad at edgeguarding Samus either since desynched Ice Shot can ruins the grapple recovery.

With numbers I'd say it is around 6-4 in favor of Samus.

 

[unknown522]

samus' recovery sucks.

 

[idea]

It's technically the same format, I just put it to 100 to eliminate decimals.

okay. i still like it better =P it takes less interpretation for me to understand the numbers.

i still think 55/45 is better for matchups like fox-falco and such, where we have tons of data, but i'd rather sacrifice a bit of accuracy there to get more everywhere else.

 

[unknown522]

I like it more as well.

5 point arguments are annoying now that I've been the one to explain everything.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Yeah I'm gonna have to agree. A 5 % difference doesn't mean anything in high competitive play. Experience, styles of play, and personal preferences / weaknesses are more important than that 5 %.

Edit: Somebody care to explain why Luigi vs Falcon is only 35-65? I always thought Luigi was someone decent against fastfallers, especially after watching Pakman vs Darkrain friendlies at Genesis.

 

[Pakman]

Edit: Somebody care to explain why Luigi vs Falcon is only 35-65? I always thought Luigi was someone decent against fastfallers, especially after watching Pakman vs Darkrain friendlies at Genesis.

Those were friendlies and he was messing around a little bit. It was also a matchup thing. Darkrain isn't as familiar with Luigi as say someone like Scar. I haven't taken a set from Scar since like last year.

35 - 65 is a decent estimate to the matchup imo.

 

[Scar]

yeah but you ***** me in that set last year (SatS hosted by chibosempai)

id say falcon wins 60-40 but 65-35 sounds good too, def not 70-30 tho

 

[unknown522]

The matchup is mostly about falcon trying to force luigi into the air. Falcon's grab can actually do something to luigi, but not the other way around, unless you get a tech chase at a reasonable percent, where you won't get CC'd by falcon's amazing weight. Though falcon can't really do a legit combo from a throw, falcon's u-air ***** luigi once he's forced in the air. He falls slow and has no air mobility, so falcon walks all over him when luigi is in the air, with some generic combos, that will either force luigi offstage, or you will hit him with a knee and he will die. Falcon can also force luigi into the air with his amazing n-air. D-air / knee also are good, but harder to hit. Falco's knee at mid percents, can potentially kill luigi, because his recovery sucks so much ***.

They are both incredibly fast on the ground, but luigi's problem is that to keep up, he has to commit to a wavedash, which takes about 10 frames to be active (after the jump). There's a lot of openings, considering that falcon can cover the whole stage so quickly.

The both get ***** on edgeguarding, but luigi can get random misfires that will save periodically. Once luigi wastes his jump, falcon can literally jump at him and d-air. Then if luigi meteor cancels, it doesn't matter, because he goes straight up.

I don't think the matchup is that bad, but not close.

Edit: luigi also has some good combos on falcon, but he's never going to death combo him, unless he west coast DIs, or gets tech chased -> up-b at like 100%. If you combo falcon off the stage, because of his amazing weight, he won't go that far even at high percent and will most likely recover.


That's some info that I have. I would post more details, but I have to go home now.

 

[Pakman]

yeah but you ***** me in that set last year (SatS hosted by chibosempai)

id say falcon wins 60-40 but 65-35 sounds good too, def not 70-30 tho

40-60 is probably more realistic then 65-35. The Falcon player has to be fast and generally hit the ground running from every aerial that connects. If you take this out of the highest level of play the matchup gets more towards the 50/50 range, but a falcon that has good timing out of his aerials doesn't get his combos broken by nair and thus *****.

Horizontal kill moves are nightmares for Luigi. Knees, shiek's fair, fox's shine , and young link's dsmash are all a pain in the *** for Luigi's recovery.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I think something needs to be done with Falcon's matchup vs Marth and Jiggs. Pretty sure Falcon has a much more difficult time with Jiggs than a 5 % decrease in the matchup. I'd let Scar do the talking on this one but I'm pretty sure he'd say like 80-20 for Jiggs. >_>

 

[KirbyKaze]

^ I'm ignoring the above post because it hasn't been discussed yet and can't contribute to it.

So basically what I'm hearing from the various groups is that

IC Samus - 4 / 6
Luigi Falcon - 4 / 6

Is this the general opinion?

 

[NES n00b]

I would say Falcon's matchup with Luigi is 6-4. Falcon's nair ***** Luigi in a lot of ways from stopping approaches to launching for combos and grabs do lead to stuff. Falcon is one of the only characters who can combo Luigi effectively and even when Luigi is not in hitstun, he has a hard time dealing with upair from below him. He can be edgeguarded easily though he also edgeguards Falcon easily. Luigi has some potential for dealing a lot of damage, but he has a harder time approaching than Falcon especially with the moves that lead to high damage like dsmash. A good amount of Luigi's moves can be cced at low percent so there is always that risk.

I think Falcon has a noticeable advantage against Luigi for sure. I don't think it is even or really that evenish.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Yeah, Falcon Luigi sounds about right at 60-40.

 

[Roneblaster]

NES N00B brings knowledge.

and in my humble opinion puff falcon is worse than 45 55 for falcon

 

[x After Dawn x]

It's at least 40-60 for Falcon, IMO. Actually, I can see it being exactly 40-60.

 

[worldjem7]

read KK's post.

****, I haven't been on a comp for about a week. time to look back.


Edit: after reading the last 2 pages, eric what are you doing with the chart now?

I guess I'm changing it to 10 instead of 100.

So, when you do the next update do it off the chart that's up there now for update 008.

 

[x After Dawn x]

So wait. All values will be in whole numbers from 1-9? So (for example), no more 65-35, only 6-4 or 7-3?

Edit: I see. It looks much cleaner now. =)

 

[unknown522]

I guess I'm changing it to 10 instead of 100.

So, when you do the next update do it off the chart that's up there now for update 008.

****. Alright.

just e-mail me the chart again.

 

[Dark Hart]

ZOMG Bowser beats Sheik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtcpKeRkPdw&feature=related

EDIT: btw I just found this, thought it was funny, and decided to have a little fun...

 

[N64]

yay.

Ok, only changes I want to make with pika's matchup is Falco moved down to a 3, Link moved down to a 5, and Ylink moved down to a 6. Otherwise looks good to me.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't think Falco Falcon and Fox Falcon are the same level of difficulty as Puff Falcon.

I think Puff is easier than the space animals for him.

I play none of these characters, however. Am I crazy to think that?

 

[JPOBS]

well once falcon gets momentum vs spacies and gets reads and junk he frequently goes ape**** on the spanimals. Also, knee kills falco at like 60 if he's near an edge. (and by kill, i mean hit too far to recover lol)

Falcon vs the space animals is one of those mathcups where on paper, the spacies **** him up, down, and sideways, but in real life, you somehow manage to win. :/

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Hey why is it that none of the low of bottom tier don't have a chance vs the higher ones? I understand chain throws or being waveshined or being outrange a lot, but why is no one even close? I think it's because no one touchs them and the main focus is on the top half. why can't the lower even fight the higher? The ice climbers don't do well to this list thing and they are the chain throwing/grab game gods of the game, no one has a better grab gameeven very just one ice climber there is still a really good grab game. and other things.

meaning the higher tiers chain throws shouldn't mean much vs them like sheik shouln't be called grab, stock, grab stock=win because the ice climbers can do this to very single person in the game BUT... It doesn't make them counter sheik or fox. So chain throws should make maybe half a point different unless both can, same would go with a grab that can set-up long combos.

But chances are the low can't fight the high is because they are years behind as fox has been going since day one.

My point was sheik counters pichu to a retarted level but for the wrong REASON sheik could chain throw/tech chase pichu to about 60% depending on DI and stuff pichu could do the same thing to the same % with d-throw and f-throw. and both could follow up with something pichu could b0throw edge gaurd or up-throw air move. Sheik counters him hard I argee, but more than just chain throws, because pichu has them to

 

[unknown522]

It's because the top tiers have some way of gaying them to death and the literally can't hit them most of the time.

+ being inheritably bad holds them back even more.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Hey why is it that none of the low of bottom tier don't have a chance vs the higher ones? I understand chain throws or being waveshined or being outrange a lot, but why is no one even close? I think it's because no one touchs them and the main focus is on the top half. why can't the lower even fight the higher? The ice climbers don't do well to this list thing and they are the chain throwing/grab game gods of the game, no one has a better grab gameeven very just one ice climber there is still a really good grab game. and other things.

Ice Climbers don't frequently get grabs.

meaning the higher tiers chain throws shouldn't mean much vs them like sheik shouln't be called grab, stock, grab stock=win because the ice climbers can do this to very single person in the game BUT... It doesn't make them counter sheik or fox. So chain throws should make maybe half a point different unless both can, same would go with a grab that can set-up long combos.

The difference is that Sheik and Fox and top tiers have really good methods of getting grabs. Some of them don't even involve your opponent making a mistake. Ice Climbers need, positively need, the opponent to make a mistake to be able to grab them.

But chances are the low can't fight the high is because they are years behind as fox has been going since day one.

No, it's actually because they suck.

They have limited options in any given situation, tend to have crappy physics, and only a few viable approaches. Nearly every low tier in the game is awful at approaching effectively, so if they get outcamped they're forced to play to their weaknesses, which sucks, and they wind up failing themselves.

This inability to approach tends to fall hand in hand with having other overly exploitable weaknesses like being slow with poor mobility, being chain grabbable, having crappy jumps (yay for platform camp), having 2-3 usable moves in their moveset total, having awful range, etc.

My point was sheik counters pichu to a retarted level but for the wrong REASON sheik could chain throw/tech chase pichu to about 60% depending on DI and stuff pichu could do the same thing to the same % with d-throw and f-throw.

No, he can't.

and both could follow up with something pichu could b0throw edge gaurd or up-throw air move.

Oh boy you grabbed Sheik at the edge. Geez if only she didn't have monstrous aerial priority, a high double jump, a situationally useful walljump, and an invincible Up+B...

... wait.

Sheik counters him hard I argee, but more than just chain throws, because pichu has them to

We've been over this. It's not just chain throws, it's inescapable chain grab on top of everything else she has (range advantage, camping advantage, speed advantage, **** edgeguarding, etc). Pichu can't chain throw Sheik; get that Brawl **** out of here.

The only significance of chain grab in these kinds of matchups is that it shorten's Pichu's lifespan (or other cgable random low tier) significantly because it's not hard to grab him (despite what 106492619 might say) and it makes his mistakes (which are already easy to make with him) and failed approaches (even easier to make) cost him whole stocks instead of half-stocks or whatever.

 

[NES n00b]

I don't think Falco Falcon and Fox Falcon are the same level of difficulty as Puff Falcon.

I think Puff is easier than the space animals for him.

I play none of these characters, however. Am I crazy to think that?

I would say puff gives about the same amount of trouble as fox. The difference is that puff out camps falcon while fox can basically rush down for free.

Falco and Sheik are harder than fox and puff.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Very true on the ice climber grab thing.

yeah pichu isn't uber hard to grab, but by no means is he easier than most, he is fast like but not as fast as other people who are good at avoiding them.

I argee most do suck but if they had more time(as in put together like fox together has had much more time then most) put into them they would easily have more tatics and anti tatics like how people light sheild marth's up-b, everyone would be more fit to fight.

But why I said something about pichu is because He IS fast, he HAS chain throws with set-ups and stuff, he HAS a good or I would argue great recovery that's hard to punish, He has a fair juggle and you don't need it to say it's a combo to juggle, he isn't waveshined or pillared, and other pros I don't wish to throw out right now, and yes I am 100% knowing he is VERY flawed but most flaws don't affect him when approaching(yes I understand range destroys him but he has speed and more than just SHFFLing so he has a mix-up), being defenceive,and etc. it's mostly his range that F***s him up, but i understand range is huge like marth if he had half his range I doubt he would be nearly as good, but he would still be fast.

Be glad I don't say retarted stuff like pichu to low tier because he is fast, I understand this stuff, and I,m glad to be proven wrong because I know more and may even be able to figure out something useful for him/her

 

[x After Dawn x]

Falcon vs the space animals is one of those mathcups where on paper, the spacies **** him up, down, and sideways, but in real life, you somehow manage to win. :/

This times a thousand. On paper, it seems like Falco completely dominates Falcon, and by a huge margin as opposed to Fox, but in reality, it's really not like that. Falco can die from ONE combo from Falcon, whereas Fox could live at least three combos from Falcon. And I'm pretty sure a knee at 40 % near a ledge is like an auto-kill for Falcon if he knows how to edgeguard properly. It should be 6-4 for Falco, which is what it is now.

Also, am I crazy for thinking Jigglypuff vs Falco should be 7-3 instead of 6-4? Jigglypuff has SO many good counterpicks vs Falco. I think that once this matchup chart starts including counterpick stages (which it should soon), then there's definitely a possibility of 7-3 considering Jigglypuff has Mute City, Brinstar, Kongo Jungle 64, Dream Land, Battlefield and Fountain of Dreams (not to mention one of Falco's best stages in the whole game, Final Destination, isn't one-sided at all in the matchup because Jigglypuff can just jump over Falco's lasers and pressure him to move towards the edges of the stage). I think right now though, with just neutrals , 6-4 sounds okay, but I'm trying to remember the last time I saw a good Falco win a tournament set off a good Jigglypuff...

 

[NES n00b]

Dashizwiz vs Darc at Genesis.....

 

[Kyu Puff]

Ice Climbers need, positively need, the opponent to make a mistake to be able to grab them.

Techchase grab, jab -> grab, several moves that combo ffers into grab? Unless you're implying that ICs can't hit the opponent without them making a mistake, this is a little vague.

ICs vs Fox -- 5/5
ICs vs Falcon -- 6/4
ICs vs DK -- 7/3
ICs vs Roy -- 9/1
Fox vs Roy -- 8/2

I don't have time to offer reasoning right now, but I'd be interested in discussing these match-ups and finding out what other people think about them (especially the first two).

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

wait don't forget block chaseing(can be used on the 1st frame of the match), down-B de-synce , sometimes nair(i hate it's range), grab edge gaurd for lolz, and I think dair for flaoties I,ve heard of chok doing a few dairs on jiggly in a row so I,m just guessing.

I always figured ice climbers vs falcon is who ever knows more about what their doing, which is normally ice climbers because we need mind fuel

 

[Nintendude]

This is really minor but I see no reason why Yoshi has a worse matchup vs. ICs than most of the other low tiers. I'm not knowledgeable about the matchup but Yoshi's neutral-B can actually be problematic since ICs rely heavily on shielding (and neutral-B beats shield) and if you egg Popo you can go ahead and get Nana off the stage. If you egg Nana then she doesn't wiggle out and Popo has to fight solo long enough for Yoshi to get some momentum going. Yoshi is also surprisingly fast and in general fast characters can run circles around ICs.

Awhile time ago I faced Eggm's Yoshi in tournament after going like 60-40 with his spacies in friendlies and he beat me. It's by no means a good matchup for Yoshi though. 3-7 at best, but he definitely fares better than characters like Bowser and Roy.