Fortress | Sveet
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i just thought this needed to be double stated in case someone (
) misses it.
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Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]
- Thread starter worldjem7
- Start date
) misses it.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
yeah pichu really sucks vs j-puff, I think she is harder than fox. All I know is you can't play her spacing game and 1 rest= 1 stock miss or hit. In hardest for pichu I think marth>j-puff>fox but gannon should be the hardest of all 4 hits you die plus he can chain throw you sheik may be gay but for gannon pichu in every shape is a joke
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Just noticed the chart says Ganon has a 65/35 advantage on IC's...
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat.
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
actually I believe it does beat both falco and falcon's dair, and I'm assuming fox's too. if pikachu is in shield and facing the other way, he can uair oos against a pressuring falco and combo him (hopefully eventually into something that's not uair, that way pika can deal more than 2-3 % per hit). also uair gimps falco pretty well.
also lol @ people thinking pichu and pikachu are the same character. that's like saying fox and falco are the same character.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,565
no, they aren't the same character
pichu is a much, much, much worse version of an already mediocre character.
pichu is a much, much, much worse version of an already mediocre character.
N64
Smash Champion
He hasn't since like 2007.
On pika vs. spacies. I think falco does better against pika, but honestly it's pretty even on how well the spacies do against pika. Uair can beat dair, but most often in play it won't. Uair hitbox arcs behind then over him relatively quickly, while falco's dair hitbox comes out instantly and just kinda sits below his body for a while, so if you don't time it just right then falco's dair will still win. Pika has trouble with lasers, they force him to approach from the air, and his aerial mobility is less than his ground mobility (though neither are bad, it just limits his approach speed and options in this matchup, where fox doesn't have something similar to limit pika's approaches). Pika's a nice weight for falco pillar **** combos, so even though it can be kinda hard for falco to start one of these than he can against other low tiers, if he gets a shine or dair in the air at low pika percent, it reeeeeally hurts.
Pika kills falco faster than fox, but not by a whole lot. Falco's recovery is worse, yes, but generally if fox is far enough out that falco wouldn't be able to recover from that distance, then pika has enough edgeguarding tools that he can make sure fox doesn't make it back. You do have more room for error when edgeguarding falco though. Fox also tends to kill pika earlier. He doesn't have the same **** combos as falco does on pika, but his approach options are rellllatively safe and he doesn't have too hard of a time just chipping away at pika until pika's at kill percent. If he isn't careful with his approaches, he can get combo'd a decent amount though, and generally fox has to approach pika more than falco does so there's more opportunities for him to miss/misjudge something and get punished.
In near-perfect play, fox does better probably, but in practice i've had more trouble with falcos.
unknown522
Some guy
the chart says that.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
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donkey kong is a fox counter
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Only Darkrain can do it haha. =p
unknown522
Some guy
Devil Ray
Smash Lord
alphicans has a point tho....
ppl generally talk about the matchups to make the chart accurate, but no one ever specifies what level of skill we're talking about.
on the flip side, reading this chart won't make anyone better. it's about playing and gaining as much exp, knowing your own personal strengths and weaknesses with each matchup. even the worst matchup for a char can turn out to be ok if you're good enough
ppl generally talk about the matchups to make the chart accurate, but no one ever specifies what level of skill we're talking about.
on the flip side, reading this chart won't make anyone better. it's about playing and gaining as much exp, knowing your own personal strengths and weaknesses with each matchup. even the worst matchup for a char can turn out to be ok if you're good enough
Pi
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,565
read the first post to prevent asking stupid questions.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
That's not the point of a matchup chart in the first place. Of course a top player will overcome any matchups.
Devil Ray
Smash Lord
"Each match-up is determined by weighing each character's abilities and what they can do to each other assuming the two players are of equal skill level at high level play. This means that we assume that both players know of every single match-up and play each match-up in the most optimal way."
i mean, that's all the first post really says about skill level. is optimal play the highest level possible?
talking about matchups is pretty natural for any smasher, but there are some things that are really sketchy. like an optimal fox can beat anyone. i just wanted to point out that perfect play from either side shoudln't define a matchup, ie half the wacko stuff m2k says about certain matchups.
i mean, that's all the first post really says about skill level. is optimal play the highest level possible?
talking about matchups is pretty natural for any smasher, but there are some things that are really sketchy. like an optimal fox can beat anyone. i just wanted to point out that perfect play from either side shoudln't define a matchup, ie half the wacko stuff m2k says about certain matchups.
N64
Smash Champion
What this chart represents is play at the current metagame level. In frame-perfect play to my understanding Fox > Falco > Bowser > everythong else, but this chart does not represent that. This chart represents the current competative metagame. So, a player of decent-tournament-placing ability playing char1 vs equally-skilled player playing char2. That is what this chart attempts to represent.
It doesn't represent perfect play, nor does it attempt to represent play at a considerably lower level than the current competative metagame (as that also changes some matchups).
It doesn't represent perfect play, nor does it attempt to represent play at a considerably lower level than the current competative metagame (as that also changes some matchups).
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
joeplicate
Smash Master
according to magus
Fortress | Sveet
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the right quote is Fox > Bowser > Falco > Everyone Else
Hialeah305
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2009
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- 10
sorry, imposter on my account!
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
They all have perfect ledgestalls, though Falco can get the ledge stolen from him because he's got no hitbox out when doing it...I think
Either that or Falco loses out because his jump takes longer than Fox's so he'll lose out in frame perfect multishine battles out of powershields
Hialeah305
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2009
- Messages
- 10
fox has more than one invuln ledge stall.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
This is irrelevent
Hialeah305
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2009
- Messages
- 10
fox has 2 invuln ledge stalls.
dark sonic did not know this before today.
dark sonic did not know this before today.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Where is Magus's post on this? I'm not buying this at all (mainly boozer).
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
dude its old common silly and totally theoretical knowledge
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Yeah but I'd still like to read the post if it exists.
john!
Smash Hero
It's because Bowser's up-B and Fox's down-B will constantly clash if both are timed perfectly, I think... and they beat out every other move.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Blatt Blvd
Smash Ace
Pretty sure Fox can grab drop and grab again(not tested in AR).
i can do it anyways, without getting hit.
no, i dont live in Canada either.
i can do it anyways, without getting hit.
no, i dont live in Canada either.
im pretty sure the big guy's upb comes out on frame 4 while the shine comes out on frame 1. so i dont think they would clash if timed perfectly. I could be wrong
unknown522
Some guy
no, the attack comes out frame 5, but the invincibility starts on frame 1 and ends on frame 4.
The shine will go through bowser, then they will clink afterwards, because the next JC shine will be on frame 5.
Blatt Blvd
Smash Ace
this is why when someone says, "at frame perfectness, Fox is the best and thats why hes top tier" it just sounds ********.
lol, bowser
lol, bowser
Fortress | Sveet
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no it has to do with infinite ledge stalls. fox has damage and so does bowser, but falco's doesn't. thats why fox > bowser > falco > everyone if everyone played AR. there was a thread a long time ago named something like "What would the metagame be like if everyone reacted frame perfectly"
frames arent my strongpoint lol. What does bowser perfect ledgestall with?
unknown522
Some guy
he can't. He can just beat every move with up-B.
otg
Smash Master
This man speaks the truth. I remember that thread awhile back.
Fortress | Sveet
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so i'm pretty sure marth vs falcon is actually in marth's favor. you play it similarly to marth vs fox, except there is no shine and falcon cant stay in your face as well as fox. falcon and fox try to punish basically the same thing (force a wiff and lag punish) except falcon has no lasers and i think fox does it better.
all of falcon's approaches can be beat by proper spacing, and basically all of his combos can be escaped if you DI correctly.
marth ***** falcon off stage, falcon should be dead at any percent if he gets thrown off. on stage its about even or slightly in marth's favor.
all of falcon's approaches can be beat by proper spacing, and basically all of his combos can be escaped if you DI correctly.
marth ***** falcon off stage, falcon should be dead at any percent if he gets thrown off. on stage its about even or slightly in marth's favor.