Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[x After Dawn x]

You assume I'm some random scrub. I've played against RockCrock and Raistlin with my Pichu. Hell, I beat a guy who beat RockCrock in a tournament with my Pichu. He was playing Sheik. I don't see how all of that is relevant though. Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.

I'm going to say that you're lying because

a) you have no videos to even prove how good you make yourself seem
b) a sheik that's horrible enough not to beat an average pichu will not beat rockcrock in tournament. Give me the name of that Sheik.

 

[Divinokage]

Well, have you ever beaten someone who's beaten an elite player in a tournament environment?

Many has done this, but this is not enough at all... because your character is **** then you will never be able to place well/get recognized as a good player. Well unless you want to keep playing Pichu then that's fine, have fun getting tech chased because Pichu's roll is the worst of out all characters. As soon as you'll play a mid level player then already you are going to get combo ***** automatically and lose stocks after stocks without you being able to do anything.

You still haven't explained how does Pichu edgeguard an opponent for me. =P

Also a tier list is based on 2 equally SKILLED opponents btw. That's the truth, and if you can't accept the life of a smasher which is cruel.. then too bad for you.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

F-smash/f-tilt is good even better if you time it well. Dair if they take their time or go high. I once edgegaurded someone with side-B and they were far out

 

[john!]

Well, have you ever beaten someone who's beaten an elite player in a tourn

Yo 1048576, I'm really happy for you, imma let you finish, but Inui has some of the best logic of all time. Of all time!

 

[Dark Hart]

Well, have you ever beaten someone who's beaten an elite player in a tournament environment?

Is there a reason you're still posting?

 

[Vulcan55]

I beat a guy who beat Rockcrock...

What do we call this logic, children?

False.
Transitive properties are for math.
Math is right and wrong.

 

[KirbyKaze]

All the posts I've read about Marth using ftilits, dtilts, and grabs to cover himself; Pichu has a specific counter to each of those situations.

I've stuck mainly to D-tilt (borderline unpunishable), grab (somewhat punishable, but not with much; 12 damage isn't intimidating by any means), and dash away (unpunishable because I am faster dashing than you are).

So far the case for Pichu is "dash away dash back in nair > everything", and "WD back dash nair > everything else" but Pichu's not faster than Marth and Nair loses to everything and even when it hits it only does 12 damage because it doesn't combo unless they're launched prior to doing so because of the existence of crouch cancel. Even if Marth can't punish Pichu directly, he reduces his punishes to 12 damage prods. That's bad for him when you consider how hard he works to get in.

 

[otg]

are people still ****ing talkin about pichu. Can we please talk about someone people actually give a **** about.

 

[1048576]

Marth can get hit during his lag, you know. Then he doesn't crouch cancel.

As far as edgeguarding, I know I've said this, but if you get either above or below Marth with your first jump, it's really hard for the marth to do much since his uair and dair are laggy enough to not want to risk not getting perfect timing. Then obv. nair.

I don't know why y'all get the impression I think Pichu's God, unless you've resorted to ad hominem as a substitute for logic. He's better than the tier list relects. He's still bottom tier IMO.

I don't think I have to respond to anything else, since my earlier points still stand and most of your posts have been obnoxious name-calling.

I'll ask again so maybe I'll get a response this time. How does Marth kill Pichu if he doesn't get the kill between 55 and 70 (e.g. no more fair/tipper and no more ken combo)?

 

[idea]

are people still ****ing talkin about pichu. Can we please talk about someone people actually give a **** about.

lol, agreed.

ummm...what's something we haven't talked about yet...

what do people think about doc-falcon?

 

[otg]

60 - 40 falcon, im too lazy to go into it

 

[Strong Badam]

basically both characters can **** eachother but falcon has more options/speed to apply pressure and create openings to commence said ****

 

[Divinokage]

basically both characters can **** eachother but falcon has more options/speed to apply pressure and create openings to commence said ****

I'd say it's 55-45 for Falcon. Doc has camping tools to counter Falcons Dash dancing and speed to move around... It's a little hard to get in. I know Falcon can wait and go in but I think this match up requires a lot of mix ups.. it's complicated matchup. The grabs both ways seem devastating.. Doc has a CG on Falcon does he not?

 

[NES n00b]

Doc's grabs are more devastating but are harder to land. Falcon relies on doc's lack of range and his inability to reliably get in on falcon's dash dancing. If Falcon didn't have nair with its massive range, Falcon wouldn't have the advantage I think, but he does so he has the advantage.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Marth can get hit during his lag, you know. Then he doesn't crouch cancel.

As far as edgeguarding, I know I've said this, but if you get either above or below Marth with your first jump, it's really hard for the marth to do much since his uair and dair are laggy enough to not want to risk not getting perfect timing. Then obv. nair.

Yes, marth can get hit during his lag but when the Marth properly spaces his moves it isn't easy even for Fox. Getting inside a good Marths range is hard. Marth is good solely because of his ability to control his space. Pichu's should have a much harder time than Fox Sheik or Falcon.

Does Pichu have a solution to Marth staying low and saving his jump. Whenever the pichu comes out to hit the Marth, Marth jumps and fairs then continues recovering. Predicting when pichu is coming out and doing so isn't hard. So marth can either do that, or is to low for Pichu and then he simply sweetspots.

 

[Alphicans]

Doc vs falcon has all the conditions/moves/strats to make for a really even match-up. Looks like 50-50 to me.

 

[otg]

lol I think its funny how all the non Doc mains think the matchup is close to even. Falcon's nair is bad, but its the knee that gives him the edge IMO. That **** has the potential to kill Doc at such low %'s its terrifying.

Edit: in hindsight, the knee ***** everyone, but its especially bad for Doc on the ledge and what not, turns the match aruond really quick. The way I see it, Doc has to work much harder for KO's then the other way around. They both **** one another's recovery, they both combo one another and tech chase one another really well (if Falcon's tech roll wasn't so horrible this matchup would be much worse for Doc), but Falcon really only needs one good read to set up for a Knee, and Knees == super bad for Doc's horrible recovery. This isn't to say that Doc can't keep up, just that he has to be extra cautious when fighting C.Fal for fear of making one mistake and getting punished to death.

Falcon's nair/bair/uair rip through pills, but nair is really the only practical one to approach with while cutting through them. This leads to Doc baiting that and punishing, then Falcon adjusting to that and repeat etc etc.. eh I'm not a big fan of pills in general, and the Falcon's I've faced don't have much of a problem dealing with them.

So yeah, this matchup breaks down into: Falcon DD camping using nairs to stop pills, and looking for one good read to lead into **** which leads to easy edgeguards, while Doc pokes, buildling damage here and there till he gets a grab/gets falcon off stage and then goes ape****. This is based on playing against Scar, hax and the almighty PC Jona.

 

[Alphicans]

Well I think basing a match-up on one move is silly, and the doc mains should actually say something that makes sense. It just seems that with falcon's ability to out range a character (which doesn't seem to happen that often), and able to space so well coupled with doc's great edgegaurd game that would be exceptionally good in this match-up due to falcon's **** recovery it has the making of a close to even match-up. It'd be interesting to see the math behind this though.

 

[otg]

Well I think basing a match-up on one move is silly, and the doc mains should actually say something that makes sense. It just seems that with falcon's ability to out range a character (which doesn't seem to happen that often), and able to space so well coupled with doc's great edgegaurd game that would be exceptionally good in this match-up due to falcon's **** recovery it has the making of a close to even match-up. It'd be interesting to see the math behind this though.

I edited my last post with more info. I feel like this matchup has been covered pretty much already here (unless I'm getting confused with the Doc boards), but if you want more info go look at the Doc boards.

 

[Divinokage]

So youre saying Doc or Falcon that has advantage here?

 

[unknown522]

60 - 40 falcon, im too lazy to go into it

I dunno either, but fox and falco are definitely as bad / worse for doc than falcon is.

Falcon's u-throw -> u-air ***** the **** out of doc, though they don't link. Even if doc somehow trades a move, he's still in a bad position. The knee also puts doc in a bad position when he's above 60%.

But yeah, doc can keep him out decently with b-air and can u-smash through his approaches (not d-air.), which is kind of nice. The problem with U-smash is that it is also pretty easy to whiff / bait.

I personally think it's 65-35. But fox and falco too.

 

[Lovage]

the knee puts doc in a bad position? LOL, it kills him? that's a bad position.

i swear, all i hear from canada are situations and options and positions and outcomes

 

[joeplicate]

theory

crafting

welcome to this thread

 

[Dorsey]

marth ***** pichu.

Does Pichu have a solution to Marth staying low and saving his jump.

Pretty much every character has some kind of aerial that you can drop zone off the ledge and own marth.......

pichu is behind many years in the metagame.

^

Doc v. falcon? uhhhhhh 55/45 if not even a little closer, in falcon's favor. There has been some good stuff said but you really have to take doc's CGing into consideration... so I think it's close!

 

[otg]

So youre saying Doc or Falcon that has advantage here?

I stated above, I think its 60-40 Falcon's favor.

the knee puts doc in a bad position? LOL, it kills him? that's a bad position.

i swear, all i hear from canada are situations and options and positions and outcomes

haha yeah, its true and its pretty frustrating sometimes because its like "WAT, DOC GET A GRAB?!?!?!? IMPOSSIBLE, HE'S SO SHOOOOOOOOORT"

 

[1048576]

Yes, marth can get hit during his lag but when the Marth properly spaces his moves it isn't easy even for Fox. Getting inside a good Marths range is hard. Marth is good solely because of his ability to control his space. Pichu's should have a much harder time than Fox Sheik or Falcon.

Does Pichu have a solution to Marth staying low and saving his jump. Whenever the pichu comes out to hit the Marth, Marth jumps and fairs then continues recovering. Predicting when pichu is coming out and doing so isn't hard. So marth can either do that, or is to low for Pichu and then he simply sweetspots.

Yeah, but Pichu's better than certain chars. at getting inside too. He should have an easier time than Pikachu, Roy, etc...

Like I said, I don't think the matchup's even or anything.

I think Marth recovering low is the easiest way to edgeguard. Nair is good at that. If he predicts your nair frequently, then you can use your jump too, then nair and he's dead. Realistically, if he's too low for Pichu, then a simple edgehog should work. Pichu can get pretty far down and still recover; farther than Marth at least.

 

[NES n00b]

How does Pichu have an easier time getting in than Pikachu? He is smaller so less range, he isn't as fast in ground speed, and Pikachu has a better projectile so he can use it as cover better.

I don't see it.

 

[1048576]

Pichu is faster in ground speed, so he has significantly more aerial momentum. His nair's hitbox extends a little beyond his body/head while he's spinning. He also falls faster and has a 4-frame sh so his aerials in general are harder to punish.

To see an example of what I'm talking about, have a Peach hurl a turnip a non-smashed distance away, then d-smash after the turnip lands. See which characters can best punish her lag starting from beyond the turnip.

They have the same projectile, no? If you're talking about the 1% that Pichu's imposes on himself, then meh, it's not exactly a gamebreaker. Besides, having high damage actually helps against Marth, since he loses his combos into his kill moves, and has to rely on random f-smashes/u-tilts.

Afterdawn, do you plan on being in FL or MN at some point. I love a MM.

 

[Dark Hart]

imo, any character named Pichu is worthless.

 

[Divinokage]

the knee puts doc in a bad position? LOL, it kills him? that's a bad position.

i swear, all i hear from canada are situations and options and positions and outcomes

Too bad OTG is not from Canada.

Also what's wrong in stating actual facts?

 

[JBM falcon08]

Stats are important but being smart and tricky are much more important.


this is why mango>m2k. Not because m2k is more nerd. i'm not sure he is anymore, but mango tries to actually mindgame the opponent moreso than m2k, and succeeds while doing it.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

imo, any character named Pichu is worthless.

agree'd...why are people arguing for pichu being good ROFL

 

[otg]

Too bad OTG is not from Canada.

Also what's wrong in stating actual facts?

Whoa whoa whoa, I got family in canada aight, so I'm sort of canadian. Saying the knee puts doc in a bad position is moot, it flat out Kills doc at mid %'s. Not a star KO, but he jsut has no shot of making it back.

 

[1048576]

agree'd...why are people arguing for pichu being good ROFL

For the umpteenth time: not good, just not last. IMO, better than Kirby, at the very least.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

no kirby is better. kirby actually has combos, edgeguards, vertical kos, horizontal kos, and moves that lead into ko moves. as far as i can tell from your posts, pichu only has nair and nair and a bit more nair.

 

[NES n00b]

I am pretty sure Pikachu has a faster dash speed. I did a test once a long time ago and it turned out Bowser runs faster than pichu (top speed of course) or something like that. It was pitiful.

Kirby doesn't really have much of those things either.

 

[1048576]

Pichu's fsmash has really high knockback, and his dsmash sends opponents out at a nasty angle. Nair can combo into itself. He has a couplechaingrabs on certain chars. Dair has good priority.

Only reason I keep mentioning nair is cause it's better than anything else against Marth.

 

[Monkey Wrench]

3-5) Sheik > Pikachu > Marth
6) Pichu
7-10) Young Link > Roy > Yoshi > DK
11-15) Falco > Dr. Mario = Mario > Mr. Game & Watch > Bowser

From the stats thread.

Edit:Also, let's talk Pichu vs. Jiggs. Currently 20-80, yet Pika is 60-40 on Jiggs... Either I'm missing something, or Pichu should be something like 35-65 here.

Edit2: Horizontal Air Speed
17-18) Pichu / Pikachu

It's the same.

 

[1048576]

Sixth fastest is pretty good...

Maybe Pichu has good axxeleration or something, since I could have sworn that he flys significantly farther horizonatally than Pikachu when nairing.

 

[Dark Hart]

Pichu's fsmash has really high knockback...

It's also really, really easy to SDI out of. Easier than SDIing out of Zelda's FSmash and USmash imo.