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Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

Divinokage

Smash Legend
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the last 4 lines are wrong. Link can't shield grab falco, unless he throws out random smashes. Up-B Oos is too slow to hit falco. Falco can hit him first whether it's with a laser, or with an actual attack. Link actually has no answer to falco's d-air -> shine on shield. Up-b is too slow and the shine will hit link first, or if he shines link's shield, then he can d-air / n-air / shine again / grab, before link can do anything out of shield.

Well, he might be able to n-air falco Oos if falco messes up.

For ganon, I was really conflicted on that one. Kage said that it was even and:

1) says he shouldn't have lost to hax, though he got 3-stocked on his own CP.

2) bases matchups on how well he does vs people (I put ganon v marth as even, because he hasn't lost to any marths in a while, other than PKM. Well, that and everyone seems to agree). But yeah, all the good ganons keep losing to falcons.

But yeah, ganon just is really slow and gets overwhelmed by falcon, then gets **** combo'd regardless of DI. Ganon can get some cheezy kills at low damage, but that's just cherrypicking off of mistakes. Falcon can legitimately get in on ganon and make him his *****. Edgeguarding is easy both ways.

Also, DD camping is broken with falcon and can match ganon's range with his n-air anyway.
Ya where did I say it was even? It's a 60-40 for Falcon for sure. Maybe 1 year ago I would say it's even but now it's not the case. That's not true either, Ganon can escape Falcon's combos with proper DI. Ya edgeguarding is easy both ways I can agree there. DD camping is pretty good however, there are things you can do to counter that, Falcon cannot spam nair vs Ganon even though in some guides it says Nair shuts down Ganon which is not true at all again.. They are moves that trades with Nair and even beats Nair such as Back air.
 

1048576

Smash Master
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Hmmm...

Pichu vs Marth is better than Pichu vs. Jiggs IMO.

The range disparaty isn't so bad when you consider that Pichu can actually approach (using nair.) As far as I know, Marth's grab doesn't lead to anything good against Pichu, and Pichu can get an easy nair-nair combo from using his most basic approach tool. I think nair is safe if you land behind the Marth. Marth actually dies pretty early from edgeguards against a decent Pichu. Jiggs is much much worse since she never dies, and you have to work for every 10% you get. Basically Pichu vs. Jiggs is a poking battle you'll never win. The one advantage is that Pichu is hard to kill with traditional Jiggs kill tactics, but he's so light it doesn't matter. Just land a bair at like 120 and he's done. That's another thing. Marth's ideal kill window is fixed. If your damage gets too high when fighting a Marth, he's basically reduced to random f-smashes and edgeguarding. Since Pichu is so light and hard to edgeguard, this kill window is pretty tight, and you can actually live a long time against Marth.

IMO, Pichu vs. Jiggs is 90-10. Vs Marth is 80-20.
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
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2,686
Hmmm...

Pichu vs Marth is better than Pichu vs. Jiggs IMO.

The range disparaty isn't so bad when you consider that Pichu can actually approach (using nair.) As far as I know, Marth's grab doesn't lead to anything good against Pichu, and Pichu can get an easy nair-nair combo from using his most basic approach tool. I think nair is safe if you land behind the Marth. Marth actually dies pretty early from edgeguards against a decent Pichu. Jiggs is much much worse since she never dies, and you have to work for every 10% you get. Basically Pichu vs. Jiggs is a poking battle you'll never win. The one advantage is that Pichu is hard to kill with traditional Jiggs kill tactics, but he's so light it doesn't matter. Just land a bair at like 120 and he's done. That's another thing. Marth's ideal kill window is fixed. If your damage gets too high when fighting a Marth, he's basically reduced to random f-smashes and edgeguarding. Since Pichu is so light and hard to edgeguard, this kill window is pretty tight, and you can actually live a long time against Marth.

IMO, Pichu vs. Jiggs is 90-10. Vs Marth is 80-20.
What?

Are you serious?
 

john!

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Pichu can spam shffl nair and land an occasional usmash and the matchup would still be better than 90/10. It's hard to space against that small fast rat. And usmash kills Puff at like... 90? I don't play versus Pichu often lol.

Although that was a real douchey reply, Tero. Being cocky isn't helping the discussion at all. I hate when people do that. At least he gave reasons for his opinions.
 

KirbyKaze

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Hmmm...

Pichu vs Marth is better than Pichu vs. Jiggs IMO.

The range disparaty isn't so bad when you consider that Pichu can actually approach (using nair.) As far as I know, Marth's grab doesn't lead to anything good against Pichu, and Pichu can get an easy nair-nair combo from using his most basic approach tool. I think nair is safe if you land behind the Marth. Marth actually dies pretty early from edgeguards against a decent Pichu.
It's sad, but I've actually seen this matchup and done it a bunch and it's pretty bad. Most of this is wrong lol.

For grabs, Marth can u-throw aerial at almost percent (typically Fair --> another move; at sub-4 you have to U-tilt but that's not exactly bad). If Pichu DIs neutral you have to Uair unless you're super awesome with Fair timing but again that's not exactly bad. F-throw tech chases are stupidly easy because of how bad his techs are, and if he DIs up to avoid being tech chased, you can just combo him anyway so...

>________>

No, Marth's grabs are really good against Pichu. They combo and stuff. Really easily.

Marth recovering high is pretty difficult for Pichu to edgeguard given how easily Marth can defend himself against Pichu's awful range. Combined with Pichu's moves having terrible trajectory, this is a problem. However, if he's recovering lower, you're right, he should die pretty early.

Nair --> Nair is countered by shielding a lot because Pichu will not get many grabs because he has to get really, really, really close to get grabs and that's really, really hard against Marth. Also, crouch cancel. And just doing moves intelligently in general.

Puff might be harder anyways just because you can't ever kill her under any circumstances, but a lot of your Marth stuff is not true.

yea... not so much...

However:

Mogwai's Falco vs. Bowser game > Lambchops' Falco vs. Bowser game

The matchup is essentially unwinable for Bowser if Falco busts out his tent and camps. Bowser can only win if you approach him.
Joke post is joke.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
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yea... not so much...

However:

Mogwai's Falco vs. Bowser game > Lambchops' Falco vs. Bowser game

The matchup is essentially unwinable for Bowser if Falco busts out his tent and camps. Bowser can only win if you approach him.
why did chops lose to dj?
 

unknown522

Some guy
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Ya where did I say it was even? It's a 60-40 for Falcon for sure. Maybe 1 year ago I would say it's even but now it's not the case. That's not true either, Ganon can escape Falcon's combos with proper DI. Ya edgeguarding is easy both ways I can agree there. DD camping is pretty good however, there are things you can do to counter that, Falcon cannot spam nair vs Ganon even though in some guides it says Nair shuts down Ganon which is not true at all again.. They are moves that trades with Nair and even beats Nair such as Back air.
MSN convo.

I guess you changed your mind now, but that's what I got.
 

Divinokage

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alright, fair enough.

What changed your mind?
Well, since Pound 3, I've started to think that maybe Falcon/Ganon is not even and that Falcon had advantage. And then I went to more tournaments and I lost to Darkrain 3-2.. and if you multiply that x2 its 6-4 lol. I mean that match is the closest thing I have to prove that Falcon/Ganon is 60-40 because it was a sick match and we both played really well and equally. Meaning i didn't **** up, I just lost that's all.

Also on Page 124 I posted something on Falcon/Ganon too, did you forget already? =P

Edit: And well and then from there, I played friendlies with Falcons a lot.. and depending on the player I either destroy them because of my experience or I lose because of the matchup sometimes, or I lose more than I win.. example SS.
 

JPOBS

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lambchops lost to colbol...but beat jman?

man, so many surprises at genesis. it still blows my mind.
Colbol is beast though.

apperently, he's considered in the same breathe as DaShizWia and HungryBox and beats/outplaces chops/shiz/hbox/whoever at florida tournies. my understanding is that he tends to choke OoS though.


also, jman had controller johns at genesis...i guess.
 

Wak

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I though Pikachu counterpicked Jigglypuff because it was a similar matchup to fox without an easy edgeguard or Upthrow>Rest, but still with the fear of the upsmash that kills at 65%. I also though Pichu was more even than that.
 

KirbyKaze

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Pikachu lacks lasers, u-throw u-air, the ultra-strong high-priority bair, the fj nair, or the same movement game. Also, there is a distinct lack of shine.

Same for Pichu.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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Pikachu lacks lasers, u-throw u-air, the ultra-strong high-priority bair, the fj nair, or the same movement game. Also, there is a distinct lack of shine.

Same for Pichu.
We get it. pika is not fox, but he does have the strongest upsmash in the game, a good recovery, good speed, a projectile, and can fly by with nair.

Im not sayin pikachu is better than puff but its not helpless in the matchup.
 

KirbyKaze

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I wasn't implying he was helpless; his Uair is gay as balls and his DD is still respectable. He also can get some low percent KOs every now and then with U-smash if Puff fails herself in a horrible manner, and his recovery is decent enough to spare him some stocks every now and then.

However, Fox's tools are more practical. And better. And they are also why, incidentally, he does better in the matchup.

edit: I didn't even say anything about numbers.
 

unknown522

Some guy
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Well, since Pound 3, I've started to think that maybe Falcon/Ganon is not even and that Falcon had advantage. And then I went to more tournaments and I lost to Darkrain 3-2.. and if you multiply that x2 its 6-4 lol. I mean that match is the closest thing I have to prove that Falcon/Ganon is 60-40 because it was a sick match and we both played really well and equally. Meaning i didn't **** up, I just lost that's all.

Also on Page 124 I posted something on Falcon/Ganon too, did you forget already? =P

Edit: And well and then from there, I played friendlies with Falcons a lot.. and depending on the player I either destroy them because of my experience or I lose because of the matchup sometimes, or I lose more than I win.. example SS.
alright.

lambchops lost to colbol...but beat jman?

man, so many surprises at genesis. it still blows my mind.
Col Bol has been beating chops for years.

We get it. pika is not fox, but he does have the strongest upsmash in the game, a good recovery, good speed, a projectile, and can fly by with nair.

Im not sayin pikachu is better than puff but its not helpless in the matchup.
It's not horrible for pika, but it's definitely not in his favor.
 

1048576

Smash Master
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Pichu can spam shffl nair and land an occasional usmash and the matchup would still be better than 90/10. It's hard to space against that small fast rat. And usmash kills Puff at like... 90? I don't play versus Pichu often lol.

Although that was a real douchey reply, Tero. Being cocky isn't helping the discussion at all. I hate when people do that. At least he gave reasons for his opinions.
The thing is, good Jiggs don't get upsmashed by Pichu, because his upsmash hitbox is really tiny and doesn't go very far in front of him. It's rare to see a Jiggs just hovering above a character, and it's pretty difficult to get underneath and smash before the Jiggs before she floats away.

Bair and fair from Jiggs both beat Pichu's nair. Like I said, it's a poking game where you're horribly outgunned.

I'll have to look more in depth into the Marth matchup in training mode. The Marth I play against doesn't do anything cool after a throw. I did forget about u-tilt's killing properties though.
 

KirbyKaze

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The thing is, good Jiggs don't get upsmashed by Pichu, because his upsmash hitbox is really tiny and doesn't go very far in front of him. It's rare to see a Jiggs just hovering above a character, and it's pretty difficult to get underneath and smash before the Jiggs before she floats away.

Bair and fair from Jiggs both beat Pichu's nair. Like I said, it's a poking game where you're horribly outgunned.

I'll have to look more in depth into the Marth matchup in training mode. The Marth I play against doesn't do anything cool after a throw. I did forget about u-tilt's killing properties though.
And Marth is a poking war where you're not only horribly out-gunned but you are also liable to take 40 damage whenever hit in the air, grabbed, or knocked over. And instead of just his Bair and Fair beating Pichu's Nair, literally all of his moves beat Pichu's Nair.
 

1048576

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Such sound logic... (referring to unknown's post)

So what happens when you come at him with a nair and you hit his sheild. What can he possibly do to you before you get away?

How is Marth going to get his kills? Random tippers? At least Pichu can reliably edgeguard (just get underneath or above with your first jump and nair.) Marth's dair and uair are a little too laggy to be chancing perfect timing with while offstage.

Not saying its easy. Marth does a lot of damage when he lands a comboing move, but Pichu has the tools to deal intuitively with everything Marth can throw at him. It's not impossible.

Marth isn't a poking war. When you hit him, he might actually die at a reasonable percent.

If the Marth approaches with aerials that get shielded, he can get naired in the face. The same cannot be said for Jiggs.
You aren't going to reasonably be hitting Pichu out of his nair with anything except your own nair and retreating fair, and maybe tilts. None of those have any real followup at most percents.
 

KirbyKaze

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Such sound logic... (referring to unknown's post)

So what happens when you come at him with a nair and you hit his sheild. What can he possibly do to you before you get away?
Well, he could jump away and Fair. I mean, Pichu probably don't get hit because he can dash away but he's once again back and square one and in no position to keep the pressure on.

How is Marth going to get his kills? Random tippers?
No, he's going to grab Pichu and throw Pichu. And keep following Pichu until he reaches the edge. F-smash. Then he'll edgeguard.

On that note, Pichu's abysmal tech rolls make him one of the easiest characters to regrab or force into positions where he has to take an F-smash, Fair, or similar move so if he refuses to go to the edge you can very easily just build percent until your F-smash will knock him off or he's in killing range for U-tilt.

He can also U-tilt Pichu out of any aerial approach at like 95 (or during edgeguarding if he tries to go above him) and kill him outright. Considering the low risk in doing so and the relatively low percent he needs Pichu at to kill him with it, this is a pretty good option.

At least Pichu can reliably edgeguard (just get underneath or above with your first jump and nair.) Marth's dair and uair are a little too laggy to be chancing perfect timing with while offstage.
Side B > Pichu moves if you time it.

Fair > Pichu moves.

You can fast fall Fair and still get the ledge if Pichu's willing to go offstage. And it's pretty safe, provided you've saved your double jump, float Side B, or you're close enough to recover after Fair's lag (which is pretty common).

Not saying its easy. Marth does a lot of damage when he lands a comboing move, but Pichu has the tools to deal intuitively with everything Marth can throw at him. It's not impossible.
Marth dash dances or spaces Fair.

If the Marth approaches with swordy aerials that get shielded, he can get naired in the face.
This is false.

You aren't going to reasonably be hitting Pichu out of his nair with anything except your own nair and retreating fair, and maybe tilts. None of those have any real followup at most percents.
Jab, Side B, crouch cancel grab (situational percent and if they're not going behind you), and dash dance grab.

Grab has follows at most percents. U-tilt can kill outright, so it doesn't typically need a follow. Fair can often combo into more Fair or Uair if Pichu's not over 50 (or similar).

Jab doesn't follow the the flipside is that it's very fast and very safe and will still eat Pichu's Nair.

Dash dance into the first hit of Side B often can combo into U-tilt, which is useful at high percents (100+) for killing Pichu. This was, in ancient times, often used against Puffs and Peaches for killing them.
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
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Such sound logic... (referring to unknown's post)

So what happens when you come at him with a nair and you hit his sheild. What can he possibly do to you before you get away?

How is Marth going to get his kills? Random tippers? At least Pichu can reliably edgeguard (just get underneath or above with your first jump and nair.) Marth's dair and uair are a little too laggy to be chancing perfect timing with while offstage.

Not saying its easy. Marth does a lot of damage when he lands a comboing move, but Pichu has the tools to deal intuitively with everything Marth can throw at him. It's not impossible.

Marth isn't a poking war. When you hit him, he might actually die at a reasonable percent.

If the Marth approaches with aerials that get shielded, he can get naired in the face. The same cannot be said for Jiggs.
You aren't going to reasonably be hitting Pichu out of his nair with anything except your own nair and retreating fair, and maybe tilts. None of those have any real followup at most percents.
Looks like you don't know about spacing.. Marth can outspace Pichu completely and just that causes the whole matchup 80-20 + Pichus horrible shield. loll. Pichu has no answer to anything whatever Marth does.
 

unknown522

Some guy
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Such sound logic... (referring to unknown's post)

So what happens when you come at him with a nair and you hit his sheild. What can he possibly do to you before you get away?

How is Marth going to get his kills? Random tippers? At least Pichu can reliably edgeguard (just get underneath or above with your first jump and nair.) Marth's dair and uair are a little too laggy to be chancing perfect timing with while offstage.

Not saying its easy. Marth does a lot of damage when he lands a comboing move, but Pichu has the tools to deal intuitively with everything Marth can throw at him. It's not impossible.

Marth isn't a poking war. When you hit him, he might actually die at a reasonable percent.

If the Marth approaches with aerials that get shielded, he can get naired in the face. The same cannot be said for Jiggs.
You aren't going to reasonably be hitting Pichu out of his nair with anything except your own nair and retreating fair, and maybe tilts. None of those have any real followup at most percents.
This is possibly the most stupid post I have ever seen.

I don't feel like writing 2 pages of what marth can do to pichu. It's a pretty unimportant matchup.
 

idea

Smash Master
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jiggs pikachu is at 6-4 right now. that sounds reasonable. they can't do a whole lot to each other except occasional moves, and jiggs' occasional moves are better...especially bair. but pikachu can still kill her sometimes sort of.

i can't see pichu marth being better than 8-2 =P i don't really understand a lot of those arguments, either.

"you aren't going to be hitting pichu out of his nair" why not? i'd do that.

"you can't do anything once pichu nairs your shield" you could wavedash OOS. but the real question is, what is PICHU going to do once pichu hits marth's shield? grab? he'd had to late nair or something. even that sound sketchy, but if he's late nairing, then why is marth waiting in shield vs. pichu? he could have been shffling fairs. he probably would have been, too.

i mean, it's not impossible, but it would need some impressive MINDGAMES, which matchup charts don't account for.

edit: i would delete half of this, but i want to leave in the part leading up to MINDGAMES.
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
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lambchops lost to colbol...but beat jman?

man, so many surprises at genesis. it still blows my mind.
Colbol and Chopz have been playing for years. They both live in Florida. If there was ever a Fox I'd expect to beat a Southern Falco it'd be Colbol; he has the experience with them. Jman rarely plays south, btw.

Mostly its just Shiz ****** the whole region, but they go back and forth every now and then.

I wouldn't doubt if Pikachu was indeed considered to be a slight counter to Jigglypuff, but to say that the matchup is 10-90 for Jigglypuff is just ********.
Agreed.

Pika's Uair actually beats Puff's Bair.

Too bad it only does 3 damage.
lololol


This Pichu Marth discussion is funny. The things Marth can do to Pichu out of grabs are even funnier. KK has gone over this like 3 times already. Marth + disjointed hitbox + stupid grab + stupid combos off of stupid grab = no win for Pichu.

I'm also relatively sure Marth can just shield grab Pichu if he nairs his shield and lands in front of him. If not, then WD back and fsmash...or just jump back and fair when Pichu approaches. Honestly, what is Pichu going to do...use his amazing range, combo game and priority to land solid hits that lead to nothing?

I just think you need to understand that when it comes to Marth/Jiggs, there is no way in hell Pichu has an easier time against a sword and death combos.
 

x After Dawn x

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Just a question; what would you guys say Falco vs Peach would be on Yoshi's Story? 50-50? Falco's upsmash and uair can actually kill there, not to mention Peach generally dies at much lower percents due to the smaller blastzones.
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
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Just a question; what would you guys say Falco vs Peach would be on Yoshi's Story? 50-50? Falco's upsmash and uair can actually kill there, not to mention Peach generally dies at much lower percents due to the smaller blastzones.
I'd say Falco has advantage on that stage.

I've seen many times that Falco is able to do double shine Star Kos at Low % on Peach easily. Also I'm gonna say that Falco has much better platform game than Peach and pulls out his moves much faster causing him to be able to do extremely fast downairs or whatever moves you want extremely quickly and also Falco has more priority than Peach I think. On that stage, there's just no time to pull out turnips and try to play a good defensive game, Falco is definitely gonna out pressure Peach. Also I don't think Peach is able to get Low % KO on Falco either, Falco has just many early KO options.

As an example for Falco's speed strictly, Shiz vs M2k at RoM 1 on Yoshis.. like holy **** he's fast hahah =P

Anyways for me in general I think Yoshis is a great stage for Falco.
 
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