MELEE-FC Tournament Ruleset Discussion

[SUNG666]

Skimmed the thread, can't bother arguing with these people

Stages are good for fun, bad for competitive play

 

[KishSquared]

A culture shock both ways. I hope that the Kishes can find something that is agreeable to everyone involved and for the event to be a success regardless of all this.

That's the goal, and it will happen.

I agree with most of your post. We wanted a reunion that saw highly-competitive play on a ruleset that mixed 2007 with 2012. Many people assumed we would post a 2012 ruleset. Ultimately, players have the option of not coming. It shouldn't be a personal-attack thing.

For the record, when I said 'old school vs new school', I meant mentality, not players. I'm well aware that there are many players that have played since pre-2007, and as such enjoy adhering to a more conservative stagelist. There are new school players that have an old school mentality as well.

Either way, FC will be amazing and everyone should come

 

[ant-d]

klaptrap hitbox

 

[john!]

i haven't posted up until now, but i'd just like to thank the TO's for being open about their ruleset and willing to discuss potential changes that may have to be made

and not super-strict style TO's that say HERE'S OUR STAGELIST, TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT

 

[Juggleguy]

^ i'm with that. Tournament over the weekend used this ruleset, I was not thrilled with it. I think rat put it best: "MBR rules feels like you have to beat your opponent 3 times. FC rules feels like you have to beat your opponent once and then gay him out on stages 2 times."

I recently played out a bo5 MM with the FC stagelist and it was just miserable, and I remember thinking to myself something along the lines of Rat's quote, so I definitely agree with him there. I think I understand the "No Johns Ruleset" argument pretty well, but the bottomline is, our standard rulesets have always been shaped around what we define competitive Melee to be as a community. These days, virtually nobody defines competitive Melee as an '07 throwback game of wits that can be played on even half of this FC stagelist. So I really don't think advocates of a conservative stagelist need to provide any argument other than: this is the national standard under which the Melee community has defined its competitive scene since Pound 4, and deviating from that is simply unnecessary.

 

[JPOBS]

I think it's a interesting observation that the only people in favor of the bunk bed ruleset are either not likely to attend (and so arguing form a philosophical standpoint) or not top level.

That's not meant to be an insult. It just speaks volumes that all the players who intend on being competitive at FC (as in, progress far in bracket) are totally against using the new ruleset.

I don't think a single pro has come out in favor of the ruleset. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Big_R]

it's not about necessity it's about flavor and FC is giving us the whole rainbow boi

 

[Lovage]

i can't wait to get poked by brinstar lava while standing on the ground because the middle lava height is inconsistent with the stage and certain parts of the floor are unsafe depending on how far it went up this time (despite there being no fire visable.)

 

[Prince_Abu]

i mean isnt it common sense that old school stages wouldnt work with new school smash?

the metagame has evolved so much this is just a step backwards

 

[WestBallz]

im probably not going anymore cause of this gay stagelist.

 

[Kal]

Juggleguy, what made the money match miserable? Not having fun and not being balanced aren't unique to the FC stagelist (i.e., you can dislike a certain matchup or certain starter stages, and many matchups are imbalanced in the MBR ruleset), but I would certainly like for you to elaborate on this point. I personally find sets on the FC ruleset to be very exhilarating and enjoyable (moreso when there are even more stages, actually).

I also don't think the status quo argument makes much sense; would it have been applicable to the Pound 4 ruleset deviating from whatever the standard were before it? You can't possibly change (for better or worse) if you think status quo is god.

Regardless of the status quo, a certain "burden of proof" argument is applicable here. Since we do not construct a ruleset from the ground up (in fact, there isn't much of a logical way to go about constructing a ruleset from the ground up), the default position is to leave something in until given a good enough reason to ban it. If a TO who was completely ignorant of everything competitive Smash created a ruleset that included Hyrule, would you simply explain that the competitive Smash excludes Hyrule? Of course not. You would explain why Hyrule is banned. And this standard I think should be utilized in any ruleset thread; status quo is a legitimate argument insofar as there are arbitrary choices that must be made (stock vs. time, randomly selecting first stage vs. striking, etc.), but it is not a convincing argument otherwise. And, even if you reject this initial premise, it seems that (subject to trying to reach a compromise), it is a premise the TOs have embraced. So, in the end, you're going to need more than "status quo" to convince them.

Where are people getting this idea that those arguing in favor of the ruleset aren't going to attend? I certainly plan on going and placing well. It's sort of insulting to suggest that arguing in favor of this ruleset is academic. But I agree that, so far, no top player has made an argument in favor of this ruleset. Though I attribute this to the fact that they probably dislike the stages, and possibly because their odds of winning on a new ruleset are lower.

 

[KishPrime]

Just in case anyone isn't reading every post and hasn't seen me say this, we are 100% going to do a revision based on this discussion. We honestly did think this was a good compromise between old FC rules and modern-day rules, based on some conversations in advance. Obviously, we were not correct.

We're going to have one more discussion amongst the group of us, and then we'll get it up with the rest of the website. We do appreciate everyone that continues to contribute to the thread, and enjoy both the rational debate and original proposals for alternatives.

 

[Big_R]

wasn't the point of a counterpick to give urself an advantage? that used to be the case.

it's still there but the advantages are small now. it used to be a big mental challenge. i would lose a lot of first matches, counterpick janky, then win on their janky counterpick for the set. it's not impossible. i have no memory of sets where luck in these janky stages ttly screwed me.

now that everyone is so against these stages it makes me want to play them more #hipster. but my reason is that no one seems to want to adjust and i pride myself on that ability.

i also don't understand people's concern in another regard. someone said "i dont think a top player has supported this stagelist" GREAT for you then. rly it's good. it means the people who ARE close to ur skill level or who are the best players will most like agree to mbr 5 or w/e.

who is this argument against? you think im gonna take out some real top talent by going getting one janky counterpick? i dont think i rly strike fear into the top 10 of any tourny rofl.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Here's your evidence - If you were on Jungle Japes, alone, would you ever get hit by a klaptrap? No, you wouldn't. Same with the lava on Brinstar, etc. They are positional hazards. Thus, your opponent must be the reason that you are being placed into more risky positions where you are vulnerable to the hazard. This rewards the player who maintains stage control over your opponent.

This statement that you make on the first page is, in my opinion, valid enough to justify the FC ruleset that you have right now.

MKII still seems like a huge no-no, but if that's the worst issue, I can just ban it. =\

Good work on reaching a compromise, by the way.

 

[Marc]

Kal: I'm guessing most people are assuming that they're not dealing with outsiders here and as such don't feel that they have to go that in-depth. They can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the Kishes know for the most part why people would rather not have stage X or Y legal. All the same, this is page 9, surely there are some arguments somewhere inbetween. I would also argue that when the consensus was reached that major American nationals ran with, this was not so much to their credit as several regions reaching it independently. It's a very organic process.

well you also said you wouldn't walk across the street for FC. if you don't "get it" then you're not going to. anyone who has ever played smash even semi-seriously should be at this event.

Now, FC across the street would be rather tempting and your post is in line with me saying that it would probably work out as a nice throwback event. I mean, it does hold significance for at least veteran players, no matter what the ruleset is. Overall though I'm easily dissuaded from going somewhere if I heavily disagree with the ruleset and that's all I'm judging here.

 

[Kal]

I'm not denying that there were posts in between the first page and this one. Just referring to the comment made by Juggleguy about not needing to provide anything more than "this is the accepted standard" as justification for a six-stage ruleset. The Kishes do know the "usual" reason people don't want to play on certain stages, and they have been addressed (your mileage may vary on how sufficient these counterarguments are). So, in the end, "this is nonstandard" is not going to change their minds. You must either change their view on the issue or some specifics (which is not likely to happen) or provide a pragmatic reason for them to change the rules. The latter has already been done, for the most part, as KishPrime has stated the ruleset will change because it is not considered enough of a compromise for the pro-MBR5 crowd.

 

[Mahie]

Hax, you can keep track of the cloud on Yoshi's.

 

[Juggleguy]

Kal, I know there has to be something other than the status quo argument. The game and community evolve, and the ruleset changes to cater to that. But this FC ruleset takes a step backwards without justifying it with respect to the game's evolution or the community's wishes. Pound 4's subtraction of 5 stages can't be compared to FC10R's addition of 5 stages. The former made a decision based on convincing arguments against the viability of certain stages (see XIF's post below) with considerations to the evolution of different character metagames. The latter draws a line on where fair stages end that is way past where 90% of today's community draws it, while requiring attendees to develop or re-develop skills that they either haven't needed since 2008 or haven't ever needed at all (players who started after 2009).

* Brinstar

The lava comes up and generally makes a big mess of everything. Lava combos, lava saves, the fact you can't kill them off the bottom a good majority of the time really limits many characters killing potential. People like Mario absolutely need edge guards in order to kill people anywhere below like 150. The lava just makes it so his already uphill matchups like marth and space animals are just that much harder because he can't kill. Any character that NEEDS edgeguarding to be effective (bar Peach and Jiggs, for other reasons) cannot feasibly win on this stage. Not to mention that because you can go through the stage, people have so many more ways to make it back, but this is not really the issue.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8EEcpbOkxU (Zhu-Fox vs DSF-Puff)

This is all I really need to show. It shows how you can be in the middle of beating someone, and then get hit by the lava once and lose a stock because it decided to come up during your combo. The worst part is that the other two matches (which were on decidedly more fair stages) Zhu absolutely steamrolls DSF. If this had been a set with all neutrals, this would have never gone to third match.

* Corneria

Character advantages notwithstanding, arwings and wolfens fly in at random times, shoot randomly, and either help otherwise tame combos or break combos because it hits the person that was attacking. This in and of itself is reason enough to ban the stage. We all know about Fox and Falco's overwhelming advantage on the stage as well. The fin creates basically a wall with which the two can just run and camp, and then get stupid low percent kills. The other thing about thi stage specific with peach is that it moves up and down. This means that if Peach floats above the ground, depending on where it's moving, she will either rise up and mess up her spacing or hit the ground prematurely. I can't even begin to describe how catastrophic this is for peach if she even wants to consider floating for more than half a second.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeRaDqKGkN0 (Mango-Falco vs SS-CF)

This epitomizes how random elements can turn the match on it's head. Mango lost his first stock entirely because of the arwing laser, and Silent Spectre was a fraction of a second away from ending his a-a-a combo but slippy came in and blasted his ***, which gave Mango the winning 0 to death combo. Silent Spectre didnt have a chance after that.

* Green Greens

This stage is absolutely ridiculous, and i'm glad that most people here agree it should be banned. The blocks, bombs, and apples bring about absolutely absurd randomness to the point that the game becomes a farce. With money on the line, this stage has no business in a tournament setting. Besides this, Fox is just an overwhelming force on this stage, with his ridiculous vertical killing power, and the blocks give him ample opportunity to camp (or infinite half the cast! woohoo!)

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcL8NIXERXI (Marty-Peach and XIF-Fox vs SleepyK-Ganon and Laijin-Peach)

I need to enumerate all the random factors in order for anyone to make sense of it all.
0:35- Fox upsmashes Peach as a block comes down, something that would've been another hit becomes a stupid early kill.
1:56- Fox tries to ledge hop nair, but the block comes at that point and kills the momentum, causing fox to nair off the stage at 0.
3:09- Fox up smashes ganondorf, and instead of dying, ganon hits the side of one block and hits the bottom of the other, saving him.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo-mD2Kf3hE (Yayuhz-Fox vs Twitch-Fox)

6:53- shine knock down, instead of being a 50-50 mixup for the fox, turns into a guaranteed kill because the apple falls.
7:11- green fox bairs off the stage, and blue fox drops down for the shine, misses, and instead of being able to simply double jump back up, hits a block instead, forcing him to up B, and ultimately dying.

* Jungle Japes

Besides laser camping and the ridiculous ledge game Fox and Falco have... Klap traps. This is reason enough to warrant a ban. The river is also terrible, because half the cast has no chance of making it back if they get tapped down there once on the left/middle or far left from momentum alone.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVC8fnZbYVk (Linguini-Ganon vs I'veJihadIt-CF)

First few seconds Ivejihadit jabbed once and the klaptrap absolutely murders linguini. Other river shenanigans continue throughout the video.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UounHRMvbfM (HugS-Samus vs Edrees-Peach)
The first two stocks are there courtesy of mr. klaptrap once again. The last stock he gets hit, manages to tech, but can't recover because the river pulls him.

* Mushroom Kingdom II

Walk off edges just promote silly strategies such as wave shining, back throw fishing, and the such. Jiggs, Ganon, Fox, and Falco are seriously overpowered on this stage, because their aerials (or shines of the side/top for fox/falco respectively) can kill at very very early percents. Birdo comes out at random times and shoots eggs randomly, hitting people out of combos, allowing people to get killed, or general gimping in general.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiLzET8pYRk (Marty-Peach and XIF-Peach vs Iori-Ganon and Chad-Puff

at 0:55, peach gets jabbed by Ganondorf, ends up behind birdo as it's going off, and as he tech rolls forward, birdo pulls him off and kills him.

* Mute City

Without ledges, this overcentralizes the game into who has better edge guard capabilities, or who has the crappiest up B. Some character are simply not an option because they NEED to be able to grab the ledge in order to compete, and this includes Doc, Mario, Ganon, and Captain Falcon. Otherwise perfectly viable characters simply do not have the tools to compete, no matter the amount of adaptation or stage practice. Jigglypuff being too good on this stage is just the start. The cars are really what kills it. Being on a set pattern is hardly reason enoug for it to be fair. As scar has pointed out in other instances, the stage hazard here favors those that can actually control the air very well. Characters can only stay in the air so long, and it's not nearly long enough to stall out the cars if there's no platforms nearby, or at all, for alot of characters. Not to mention damage dealt by the cars is usually not in thanks to the opponent. It's free damage that required no thought and only serves to help a certain player.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOOGfYEwK70 (Ken-Marth vs PC Chris-Falco)

The classic. PC Chris vs Ken at MLG match 5 (for all the marbles basically). People like to concentrate on the ending (i'll get to that) but I think 1:45 deserves special mention. Basically PC Chris gets needlessly juggled for 46% for simply trying to recover back to the stage, because he just happened to be knocked off as the cars are coming. Instead of an already stupid situation where no ledges make recovery that hard, Ken gets a free 46% because he managed to land a hit that knocked him off 1 minute and 40 seconds into the match. Had this happened at 1 minute and 50 seconds instead, PC Chris would have come out relatively unscathed. You shouldn't get double rewarded for doing something at one time, as opposed to another because of the stage. And then immediately afterwards during Ken's combo on PC Chris, Ken lands an uptilt, and before he can do anything a car hits him, allowing PC Chris to come back down and punish him. (Wobbles: there's a clip for Combo Breaker!) And then there's the ending. We all know it so it hardly needs explaining. PC Chris manages to hit Ken with an uptilt, and what could have been a game ending combo turns into PC getting juggled for 50% (To be fair, Ken got hit for 20% as well, but it doesn't make it any less ********). The best part is that because Ken got hit (read: made a mistake) he avoided the first part of the cars that may have damaged him as well.

* Poké Floats

The amount of falling through pokemon glitches alone should be reason enough to warrant a ban. I know and have seen it happen on Seel and Snorlax, and I've heard about it on Venusaur and other as well. The main problem with the stage is that you have to move around and jump so much, characters with strong aerial games are heavily favored. As a good friend of mine who plays Roy put it, "You can learn the pattern and contemplate strategies all you want, but you can't make Roy's aerials any better." Some character excel in their ground game, and other in the air, and you've basically taken the ground out of the equation, and made it a nightmare for characters like Mario, Roy, etc to even land hits, let alone kill anyone. Aside from that, the low ceiling makes it so that Fox and Falco also have an overwhelming advantage on the stage. Other than that, opportune pokemon make appearances to cause stupid kills.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhg7-7Ou8JM (Azen-Luigi vs Mathos-Falco)

at 1:45, Mathos starts by showing off how overpowered Falco can be on this stage with a fairly early percent kill by shining off the top. As Luigi turns into a star, Sudowoodo comes in and lifts Azen off as he respawns, killing him again. Great right?

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI1HF6tfbPM (Rice-Falco vs SmashMac-Doc)

Rice is able to shine smashmac's Doc off the top twice in the first 20 seconds, doing a combined total of 84% between the two stocks. This wouldn't be such a problem if Shine didn't come out in one frame. If this strategy had to be done with Bowser's up air, then it'd be a reasonable work around. Asking someone to avoid a one frame move is hardly a viable strategy.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJrZUulDCY0 (XIF-Peach vs Viperboy-Falco)

Even if it's in my favor, this is really dumb. 1:18 I forward air Viperboy into weezing, and he manages to tech it. But then his up B gets ganked by slowbro, netting me an undeserved kill. At 2:05, I down smash Viperboy, and instead of being able to attempt a recovery, Venusaur comes in at that precise moment off screen and spikes Viperboy. He couldn't even see what killed him, let alone tech off of it.

* Rainbow Cruise

Once again, the movement in this stage give characters with strong aerial game overwhelming advantages. And also once again the ceiling is so low that Fox and Falco have easy low percent kills that make it a nightmare to actually play against. Characters that absolutely cannot function on this stage range from Mario, doc, ICE CLIMBERS, Roy, Donkey Kong, etc. Once again, these are otherwise tournament viable characters that are effectively shut down for at least one round, netting the opponent free wins.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFY7dm6Ekf8 (Darkrain-CF vs Trail-Marth)

Here's a prime example as to how strong CP's can be for certain characters. Trail manages to beat Darkrain match 1 of the set using IC's. Darkrain displays his understanding of how powerful CP's can be by taking Trail to Rainbow Cruise. This is a notoriously bad stage for IC's, and Trail even comes out with his known secondary, Marth, which is basically the only suggestion thus far for combatting against CP stages. Darkrain proceeds to absolutely demolish Trail, continuing the set to game three, where darkrain barely wins. Now what stage exactly does Trail have to pick against Darkrain that gives him that same advantage? Mute? Lol getting knee'd once means Darkrain gets a free edge guard kill with IC's sorry recovery, to which admittedly IC's can do back, but the moving stage removes their CG, so at best it's even and at worst it's still in CF's favor. Corneria? Say hello to 70% knee kills. So here is an instance where characters and stage advantage/disadvantage played a large enough role that the player had no real answer for it. The stages introduced advantages to one character that the other character had no access to.

* Kongo Jungle 64

I'll keep this short and simple. Barrel allows for people to live from otherwise fatal hits. Barrel hogging isn't always an option due to character and position before the hit. There's also the power of certain characters on this stage make it nearly impossible to win for alot of people.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k (Pink Shinobi-Peach vs Rockcrock-Ganon)

This is just sad. Peach doesn't need this vs Ganondorf at all.

 

[KishPrime]

We didn't post a compromise yet.

EDIT: Wow I got ninja'd, that was to ShroudedOne.

 

[Kal]

Juggleguy, I don't necessarily disagree with your argument as a pragmatic reason to use the MBR5 ruleset (i.e., "90% of the community doesn't agree with you, and they won't attend a tournament that doesn't run the MBR5" may very well be all the justification one needs to run the MBR5). I was really just disagreeing with "this is the national standard under which the Melee community has defined its competitive scene since Pound 4, and deviating from that is simply unnecessary" as being sufficient justification for running the MBR5 ruleset.

With regards to the quote: if you're not already leaning towards believing the stages are inherently bad, you see that most of the arguments have already been addressed in detail. Since I don't think the specifics of that quote are actually relevant to your point (please correct me if I'm wrong here), I won't address them in any detail.

 

[Big_R]

snuggleguy u cant quote xif that guy breaks down in tears when he loses

 

[omgwtfToph]

damn ***** alright strongbad ur cool too dam greezin

THE GREEZE!!

anyway me and SW played on the FC ruleset a bunch and basically

all the stages are fun (and the better player generally wins) except brinstar and JJ, and dying randomly (pseudo-randomly if you want to split hairs) to the lava/klaptrap is not fun. >_> SW grabbed me by a ledge on JJ during a MM at less than 10% and fthrew me, and a klaptrap hit me before I was out of hitstun from the throw. it's really really irritating. <_<

BUT then again, Genesis 1 honestly had a really really similar stage list AND there was only 1 ban, and not 3, so if anything FC is just a "toned-down" version of Genesis 1 (and tournaments that pre-date Genesis 1)'s stage list. i.e. it's not as weird as people are making it seem.

And since, despite the fact that RC, Corneria, Stadium and Poke Floats were all legal in singles at G1 with only 1 ban per person, and the top 3 was still puff/peach/puff in that order... i'm convinced that regardless of how janky the stage list may seem, it's not gonna affect results too much.

Brinstar and JJ are still dumb as hell though. not even from a "balance" point of view; they're just really exasperating to play on when you can lose stocks for basically no reason. this is in no way a well-formulated argument or anything. I'd rather use 2 other stages than those.


Now, this is purely personal opinion, but I think KJ64 is a much better stage than JJ to include. The barrel is a lot less game-changing than the klaptrap, but both stages generally favor the same characters and strategies, (spacies are great if they try to run away, floaties are amazing in general, stage is pretty good for sheik, etc.) so you're not really changing counterpicking strategy or anything like that by making the swap. Basically, characters that are likely to ban JJ are also likely to ban KJ64. Yeah, top platform camping on KJ64 is pretty rough in some matchups, but side platform camping on JJ is just as bad, AND there's the klaptrap.

 

[Drephen]

snuggleguy u cant quote xif that guy breaks down in tears when he loses

i forgot about that hahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahaha

ya come on luggage guy

 

[Metà]

Drephen are you coming to this? I just watched your combo video again for old time's sake. Still just as amazing as I remember it back in like 2006

 

[Bl@ckChris]

has anyone else had that moment where you try to up B but the barrel snatches you while you up b, and it spits you out facing down, because you couldn't see the barrel yet?

maybe it just happens to me because of ganon's sweetspot height. but it's pretty annoying. still better than klaptrap though.

 

[Armada]

THE GREEZE!!

anyway me and SW played on the FC ruleset a bunch and basically

all the stages are fun (and the better player generally wins) except brinstar and JJ, and dying randomly (pseudo-randomly if you want to split hairs) to the lava/klaptrap is not fun. >_> SW grabbed me by a ledge on JJ during a MM at less than 10% and fthrew me, and a klaptrap hit me before I was out of hitstun from the throw. it's really really irritating. <_<

BUT then again, Genesis 1 honestly had a really really similar stage list AND there was only 1 ban, and not 3, so if anything FC is just a "toned-down" version of Genesis 1 (and tournaments that pre-date Genesis 1)'s stage list. i.e. it's not as weird as people are making it seem.

And since, despite the fact that RC, Corneria, Stadium and Poke Floats were all legal in singles at G1 with only 1 ban per person, and the top 3 was still puff/peach/puff in that order... i'm convinced that regardless of how janky the stage list may seem, it's not gonna affect results too much.

Brinstar and JJ are still dumb as hell though. not even from a "balance" point of view; they're just really exasperating to play on when you can lose stocks for basically no reason. this is in no way a well-formulated argument or anything. I'd rather use 2 other stages than those.


Now, this is purely personal opinion, but I think KJ64 is a much better stage than JJ to include. The barrel is a lot less game-changing than the klaptrap, but both stages generally favor the same characters and strategies, (spacies are great if they try to run away, floaties are amazing in general, stage is pretty good for sheik, etc.) so you're not really changing counterpicking strategy or anything like that by making the swap. Basically, characters that are likely to ban JJ are also likely to ban KJ64. Yeah, top platform camping on KJ64 is pretty rough in some matchups, but side platform camping on JJ is just as bad, AND there's the klaptrap.

Tbh Im sure I would not place that high if people actually used smart counterpicks. I don't think I won second match just because of mute city but I can say that I would not win against m2k on Corneria for example. So even if I was second best at Genesis I would probably have placed around 5th or something because of the ruleset. Stages like this are TO strong and makes way less chars vaiable and people sometimes john about to much spacies (this ruleset will force the rest to play spacies pretty much).

With a ruleset like genesis 1 once again I would not go back

 

[omgwtfToph]

Armada: yeah, but there are 3 bans now, not 1. Against spacies at this tournament you can ban Rainbow Cruise, MK2 and Stadium/Yoshi's, while spacies have to ban Mute City, Brinstar, and probably Jungle Japes (unless they want to try to camp the side platforms, but having actually TRIED this this weekend I don't think this strategy works well against Peach at all) against you. Which means the stage list will almost certainly be reduced to the 5 neutrals lol in those matchups.

So basically I'm saying even though this stage list is similar to Genesis 1, the RULESET (3 bans instead of 1) makes it so you end up with a more "legit" stage list instead of Genesis 1's.

Basically, my point is... I don't like those stages either (particularly JJ/Brinstar) but I don't think it's a really big deal considering the ban format.

 

[ant-d]

Random Klaptrap info

You can also get hit by the klaptrap through the floor. Although it is clearly less of a hazard, a properly timed down-throw will cause the klaptrap to hit the opponent on the main stage area. This works against most characters.

 

[Metà]

^ that same downthrow can also cause mario/doc/luigi to get stuck in the stage permanently if you're falco

 

[BigD!!!]

thats about as relevant as falling straight through the middle of pokemon stadium

 

[KishPrime]

thats about as relevant as falling straight through the seel's neck of poke floats

 

[omgwtfToph]

but falco's dthrow glitch on jungle japes can be induced from regular combat whereas the other two things are pretty much your own damn fault for not knowing the stage

 

[JPOBS]

Yea but bro just don't shield/get grabbed/hit/laser'd/shined/etc.
common bro this is 2012 learn your stages

 

[HugS™]

Oh wow, I really missed this LOOL

A Midwest rule thread that you knew would involve crazy stages before even reading it.

<3 Kishes.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Why did I just read all of this omg


....

For the record, I have no opinion on this because I can't get myself to really believe either more conservative or less conservative ideas for stages. I was kinda hyped for the ruleset that had come out at first though just because of unique CP'ing strategy that could be used(and because it was different probably).

But of course I play Falco so my opinion probably doesn't count or something.

I do really look forward to any unique ruleset that is presented for this tournament, and am excited to begin plotting accordingly. =)

 

[Armada]

Yeah your opinion dosen't count cause you are playing ****ing Falco
Good thing that you understand that

 

[Fregadero]

Yeah your opinion dosen't count cause you are playing ****ing Falco
Good thing that you understand that

That translates to "Play Marth" in Swedish, right?

 

[Armada]

Yeah it does

 

[john!]

Yeah your opinion dosen't count cause you are playing ****ing Falco
Good thing that you understand that

post of the year imo

 

[Oracle]

I feel like we need some actual testing rather than just a bunch of worthless theory crafting. Run a local tourney or two with the FC ruleset and see if the results are skewed to favor these "jank" strategies. There is still a good amount of time before the FC, so we can get a lot of data in.