Melee Back Room Reopening

[DtJ Jungle]

Indeed.

Wasn't that what this thread was for anyway? They told us waht they were doing, released a new stage list and we're discussing it.

I don't see a problem with that system.

 

[Meneks]

mbr was made so people can feel exclusive on smashboards cause their name tag becomes purple and looks cool..But seriously
Its just intellectual people who know ALOT about the game talking without interruptions from the randoms that post on smashboards.
As far as it being open to the public..
Yeah that makes alot of sense.. I mean sure it would be cool but the purpose of it would be kinda pointless..
It would make sense for the post from mbr to be readable though..
Bring the smash community a bit closer together instead of isolating a bunch of people..

 

[rhan]

I think that any type of intellectual discussion of any kind should be available to everyone.
which in includes the backroom discussion, I assume.

I'm half and half on this.

Agree: Because then everyone of the community are knowledgeable of what's going on. Have it set up like how the Debate Hall is. Only debaters are allowed to post but everyone can read the threads.

Disagree: It's original intention was to have people stride to become good enough to be allowed to read what goes on there and pass thier knowledge along to the choosen few. If it becomes viewable to everyone, what's to stop people from taking discussions inside the BR and bringing them outside in thier own discussions. Then just making a mockery of the original discussion.

 

[Mogwai]

Indeed.

Wasn't that what this thread was for anyway? They told us waht they were doing, released a new stage list and we're discussing it.

I don't see a problem with that system.

The system is fine, the members are not

mbr was made so people can feel exclusive on smashboards cause their name tag becomes purple and looks cool..But seriously
Its just intellectual people who know ALOT about the game talking without interruptions from the randoms that post on smashboards.
As far as it being open to the public..
Yeah that makes alot of sense.. I mean sure it would be cool but the purpose of it would be kinda pointless..
It would make sense for the post from mbr to be readable though..
Bring the smash community a bit closer together instead of isolating a bunch of people..

The issue that I have at least is that I don't think the mbr is full of intellectual people who know ALOT about the game. I think there are a large number of people back there who don't know nearly enough to be useful in a serious conversation. I also think there are a number of people who are qualified to do so who are left out (yes, I am on this list and no, with the way things have gone I would not participate in the mbr even if anyone wanted me back there)

If you want to disagree with something, feel free to disagree, but only with the final result. Note that I held a belief at one point(Kongo Jungle) and then that belief changed. Had there been MBR transparency there very easily could have been a huge amount of "Kongo Jungle shouldn't be Neutral" spam in the Melee Discussion(most of which to be honest I would have never read) followed by a rather ill-conceived notion that when my mind was changed by the arguments of non-MBR members when the final product came out. This would lead to random members believing they have the debate skills to be in the MBR and using of the rather incorrect "We helped keep Kongo Jungle off the Neutral List" argument as to why they should be in. They of course would NOT make it in which would lead to even more arguments and whining about why they didn't get in(Ex: Mogwai) It's much easier on the forum and forum leaders to just let the MBR take the small amount of hate for being closed.

To be honest, the less likely any given member THINKS they should be in, the less likely it's going to cause problems. With a closed Back Room members have to rely solely on themselves in debates and arguments and this is actually what helps your chances of getting in. If you don't like a final product of the MBR, that's fine, argue it. Anyone who can prove themselves capable of extreme rationale and proper debate skills in doing so will definitely help their chances of getting in. If you think the proper alternative is to say "This list sucks and so does the MBR" then youre probably mogwai.

Edit: @Pocky, we also agreed pretty solidly that Green Greens can **** right off.

namesearch revealed this little gem to me. please, I undermine the mbr because Mow is a prick and has made more than a few bad choices in selecting the members. when I called him on these, he stopped responding to my PMs and it became readily apparent that if I chose to disagree with him at all, that I was wrong and thus would not be involved in the mbr.

so yes, I openly express my disdain for the mbr. and yes, I complain about why I wasn't let in because it was a stupid and unfair decision. I am extremely knowledgeable about this game, am not half bad at it, and am **** active about both playing and posting advice to people. and in the meantime, you're in there, pleasantly sharing Mow's opinion that the metagame hasn't evolved in the past couple years. do you ever stop and think that maybe that has something to do with the fact that you haven't been seriously playing tournaments for awhile?

tl;dr **** you Pink Reaper.

 

[Scar]

tl;dr **** you Pink Reaper.

yeah, seconded, you suck dude

if no one answers my objection to the remodeled DSR btw i'm probably just going to petition whoever is ultimately in charge of the MBR to get mow out of charge and basically to pockyD in charge since he's actually unbiased, actually smart, and actually prepared to listen to other people and respond to their ideas

and also if i ever get kicked out of the MBR for disliking the people in it and questioning its ability to maintain a coherent line of thinking and come to a reasonable conclusion pertinent to the 2009 SSBM metagame then we'll have a really good idea of just how things are run

borderline orwellian

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Mogwai, I never disagreed with you that the way members are let in and who is let in/who's not isn't fair. I believe the issue at hand was why it isn't public to everyone.

 

[BigD!!!]

scar next time im on aim i'll tell you about me and jianos own back room we're inventing

 

[Meneks]

How about we just disregard the mbr and continue our discussions like how its always been..
The reason why mbr even exists is cause MOST tournament host recognize what the MBR displays and their rulesets etc etc..
disregard the mbr and the whole point of the mbr would be pointless

 

[jugfingers]

yeah, seconded, you suck dude

if no one answers my objection to the remodeled DSR btw i'm probably just going to petition whoever is ultimately in charge of the MBR to get mow out of charge and basically to pockyD in charge since he's actually unbiased, actually smart, and actually prepared to listen to other people and respond to their ideas

I don't really know pockyd but judging by this post he is not an idiot

does it really NEED to be any deeper than "sometimes a giant tree or mountain comes out of the stage for 30 seconds"?

and also if i ever get kicked out of the MBR for disliking the people in it and questioning its ability to maintain a coherent line of thinking and come to a reasonable conclusion pertinent to the 2009 SSBM metagame then we'll have a really good idea of just how things are run

borderline orwellian

having a secret society of elite deciding stage lists and rulesets is already a very distinct paralell to the Illuminati lol.

 

[Mogwai]

scar next time im on aim i'll tell you about me and jianos own back room we're inventing

omg, I like this Back Room better. Can I be in even though I don't play CF ^_^?

 

[Lordydennek]

It should be readable. The only way ppl can get that good is by hearing whats going on in there. Doesnt make since that it shouldnt at least be open to reading.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Mogwai for prez.

Seriously, i agree.

 

[pockyD]

i don't see what's wrong with mogwai

he's always adamant he's right but he also always backs up his thoughts instead of just throwing it out there then bouncing without justifying

 

[KAOSTAR]

It should be readable. The only way ppl can get that good is by hearing whats going on in there. Doesnt make since that it shouldnt at least be open to reading.

The knowledge from the rest of SWF greatly outweighs what you would learn in the back room.

Like pocky said(kinda), theres not much more to it then stadium is banned because every once in awhile a giant tree comes out.

 

[HawaiianJigglyPuff]

I think it would just be nice if the MBR updated us every now and then on lists that they're working towards to let us know what we can expect for the future. This would add a little bit more transparency with communication, inform the community, spark threads, and overall not keep us totally in the dark.

Oh wait, isn't that what this thread is doing?

Seriously guys, if you don't like the privacy issue, you really need to obtain some logic. It really isn't that big of a deal. Umbreon posted this thread spelling out exactly what we can expect from the MBR. Why do we need everything to be so transparent. It's MUCH better if they can debate and argue for a while and we don't see it and then come up with something in the end that we can see.

Your professor doesn't watch you write a paper and analyze everything you're doing in addition to reading your final paper. It's stupid to have the professor just sit there and watch you write your paper if he can't give his two cents, which is exactly how it would be if we could see in the backroom. We wouldn't be able to post, so what's the point?

And it's already been covered why there is the need for the backroom in the first place. There are too many brain-dead idiots on here, as well as nubs who don't know what they're saying, so our input doesn't have the credentials the MBR has. It keeps things A LOT more organized.

As far as selection for the MBR goes, well, that's another story, but not really the topic people are debating. (Mogwai, you're an excellent poster who I think not only plays this game very well, but makes excellent posts and contributes a lot to the boards. If it were up to me, I'd put you in, but it's not.) I think PockyD is saying some VERY valid stuff though and feel like the debate between Mogwai and others is getting out of hand.
My understanding is that according to Umbreon, for example, people haven't learned to beat Jiggs because they're getting lazy and so the metagame hasn't gone anywhere. At first, people thought that Jiggs was a fluke and that players had merely not had enough practice in the match-up against jiggs. But now that it's years later, instead of saying we need a new tier list, we need to move jiggs up, the argument is that players still haven't learned the match-up and thus the metagame has not changed. I disagree and think the metagame has changed. You can watch it in Mango's playstyle (with any character) and how he plays differently than other players do. He makes himself very unpredictable because he is very aware of what he is doing and what the other character is doing. I noticed this a long time ago when watching videos and seeing him do moves that others would not normally do. For example, falco doing a down tilt against peach is dangerous because if you CC the downsmash you get *****, but Mango does it anyway. Another example is "randomly" throwing out a forward smash. It may LOOK random, but it's not because he is aware of how you are trying to approach him and he believes you are vulnerable to a smash attack. There are many more instances...rollouts with puff, ways of recoverying, but you get the idea. This is how Mango ***** so hard. Because he plays on another level. In other words, the metagame HAS advanced.

I would just like to take a moment to show my gratitude toward the MBR. I mean, I'm not ***-kissing or anything, it's just that a lot of people say a lot of negative things about the MBR and I appreciate their efforts to create an intelligent, well-thought set of rules and tier lists. Best of all, if you don't like what they have to say, you get to ignore them and do things your own way. OMG TOTALLY NO WAI BBQ

 

[Lordydennek]

lol its like a secret conclave. Like the Kirin Tor. If anyone knows what that is, they get muchos props.
But knowing what they are working on and updating us would be great.

 

[Mogwai]

It's a WoW thing. Google's pretty good.

And if you read this first post, it does let you know what they are working on.

 

[Lordydennek]

For real? well dammn. Lol I dont appreciate WoW. It ruined Warcraft's awesome storyline. I knew the Kirin Tor back in Warcraft 2 tides of darkness!! Warcraft should only be a rts.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

warcraft Should Only Be A Rts.

Qft .

 

[Lordydennek]

jk wow is fine.

 

[BigD!!!]

yeah mogwai me and jiano decided that everyone is in by default until they do something stupid, except overswarm and mow
but we havent gotten around to doing anything with it yet

 

[HawaiianJigglyPuff]

Ah sweet!

10BigDbackrooms!

 

[AlphaZealot]

The current ruleset was not created at all similar to how the previous ruleset, in 2007, was created. If you check the old ruleset you will see exactly the procedure of how it was created (MBR member voting on each issue). The voting on each stage, for example, was a system I pushed to create debate and discussion on every stage. The new ruleset I attempted to stay away from cause it was clear it was more or less not going to be accomplished in the previous (democratic) fashion.

Also, PockyD has impressed upon me that he is in fact a very good choice for leading the MBR. This is largely cause I've perceived many of his posts to be more about what is fair and about understanding a situation from both sides then by pushing his own bias.

I'm currently working on the BBR and will be putting up a lot of new changes to that room in the coming months to improve things, some of which I hope will get adopted by the MBR. All of which I hope will improve the room and the community as a whole. Making the BBR publicly viewable is not out of the question.

 

[KevinM]

I don't care if the MBR is viewable *shrugs*. I don't get why there's so much flamehate for it right now haha.

 

[St. Viers]

^^because kids don't understand how why it works the way it does, and can't accept that maybe having everything public *isn't* a good thing.

 

[jugfingers]

Illuminati

10bilderbergs

 

[St. Viers]

Seriously jugfingers, you aren't even trying anymore. What happened to your shallow attempts to actually come up with arguments.

 

[Meneks]

yeah mogwai me and jiano decided that everyone is in by default until they do something stupid, except overswarm and mow
but we havent gotten around to doing anything with it yet

Everyone in by default?
then its not really a backroom
its more like a "lobby" lol

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Down with mow?

 

[tubes]

I don't need the backroom to be publicly viewable. I trust this community to make smart decisions.

 

[jugfingers]

Seriously jugfingers, you aren't even trying anymore. What happened to your shallow attempts to actually come up with arguments.

look whos talking..

I'd go into more detail into how exactly he's slipping around people's posts, but I don't really think I need to.

you probably haven't even read the posts that I have made in this thread. If you had maybe you would have something to say other than Im a troll.

I've responded to everyone who questioned any of my arguments, but then people stopped responding, so its a little hard to have an argument by myself.


do you even know what the bilderberg group is?

 

[DtJ Jungle]

The point is no one cares.

 

[St. Viers]

Your response to my post showing that I'd read your stated problems with a private group

You ignore the reasons I posted for why the jury system works the way it does, to bring up completely arbitrary points that have nothing to do w/ what I said. Your points were all completely irrelevant to the conversation.

The second part you quoted again ignored my point to talk around the issue. It doesn't matter if the decision they came up with isn't right, down the road. The point is that if they get to decide their standpoint without the people not in the backroom (a unstated part of this being that the people in the back room DO have more knowledge and experience than most of the people who'd be trying to discuss it were it public) knowing their personal opinions on it. Then, when they reach their group consensus, they can go with that and have a clear, unified opinion, with strong reasons backing it.

You failed to address why this is any more wrong than the countless other organizations that have a decision making team, or even just have people ranked higher than you on the totem pole--or do you expect you boss at whatever job you have to include you and all his employees when he's making a decision?

In terms of your response to kaos in the same post, you again bring up "the only point i'm trying to refute is in this particular situation, conversing in secret is somehow advantageous to transparency." Except that you can't. We provide evidence for why it's good, why it works the way it does, and all you do is bring up secret societies, ignoring the day to day evidence supporting the way it's done. Private organization=/=conspiracy. The fact is, a small group is more efficient. On a public forum, a public group is unable to be small, even if it's read only--the members of said group would be deluged by people (that aren't in their group for a reason) pming them, bring topics up in other threads, trying to influence their decision.

Also, your claim about having one preson is simply reducto ad absurdum, everyone knows that if it was once person, the results would be highly biased. You brought that up for no reason, except to avoid talking about our points. Same w/ comments like "all I am against is secrecy in an open society." **** like that proves that you're either helplessly naive, or a troll.

And you're being to unwilling to respond in any meaningful way to our points, which leads one to believe the latter.

 

[Pakman]

I support putting Pocky in charge. Unlike most people he can look at a situation from a 3rd person perspective and disregard his own bias when need be. He also isn't very stubborn.

Mogwai for MBR.

 

[Mogwai]

Also, PockyD has impressed upon me that he is in fact a very good choice for leading the MBR. This is largely cause I've perceived many of his posts to be more about what is fair and about understanding a situation from both sides then by pushing his own bias.

10highfives

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

I really think people need to stop arguing for change in the MBR. Once again, any tourney host can use any ruleset her or she desires. If it's going to be a big tourney, not completely conforming to MBR rules won't change anything. If people don't like the MBR ruleset, you change it to what people like to get a good turnout.

Also pockyD is an intelligent poster, and he would do well as the leader of the MBR.

Also jugfingers is an idiot. Apparently judges dress like referees? I mean that could have been sarcasm, but it had to be one of the stupidest analogies I've ever heard.

Also i was just curious how backroom inductions work. Is it like, you apply, and then the whole of the MBR votes on an individual? Or does Mow just deny people he doesn't think belong there? The only thing I know for sure is that unlike other "groups", the BR is only open for application at certain times. Even that is ambiguous, considering when this thread was made Mow said the MBR was taking applications, but then made a list of people that they had agreed to induct.

 

[pockyD]

i'm not really interested in running anything

plus admissions is already (supposedly) done by a voting process anyway

 

[Deleted member]

I disagree and think the metagame has changed. You can watch it in Mango's playstyle (with any character) and how he plays differently than other players do. He makes himself very unpredictable because he is very aware of what he is doing and what the other character is doing.

wow this is actually a really good point. I'll rewatch them later, but I think I know what you're talking about.

admissions is purely done on votes with the exception of a set amount of members JV told me to add (15) and some members that were once MBR members and were removed for one reason or another. if mogwai had received enough votes last time around, he would have been added plain and simple.

I think my role in the MBR is mistaken. My only jobs are adding members that get voted in and standard forum moderation. anything I do past that I do outside of that leadership position.

edit: and I just re-added Cort.

 

[Mogwai]

wow this is actually a really good point. I'll rewatch them later, but I think I know what you're talking about.

I loled

admissions is purely done on votes with the exception of a set amount of members JV told me to add (15) and some members that were once MBR members and were removed for one reason or another. if mogwai had received enough votes last time around, he would have been added plain and simple.

Votes from who? Do you just make polls in the mbr being like "BigD MBR Y/N?" and then if > 50%, he gets in?

I think my role in the MBR is mistaken. My only jobs are adding members that get voted in and standard forum moderation. anything I do past that I do outside of that leadership position.

I think that's an issue of mislabeling then. I've always understood your position as Head or Leader of MBR, which to me indicates that in some way, you should be guiding discussion and keeping things on point back there. I suppose that since I only have limited knowledge of the goings on back there, I can't say for certain that such a role needs to be filled, but the feeling I've gotten from talking to various MBR members is that the discussions are not particularly guided and often get derailed by nonsensical or irrelevant arguments. It just seems that you're the only one in a position of leadership back there and to the best of my knowledge more leadership is needed. Whether that should come from you or someone else is up for debate.

 

[Vro]

I'm impressed by pockyD. His Larry David pondering avatar is 222g.