Melee Back Room Reopening

[The Good Doctor]

people given their opinions on the stages, etc ALL THE TIME

it's not like the MBR is 100% in agreement on any issue (except that mk needs to be banned); even mbr members argue out in the open if that's where the subject comes up

when you ask about admissions (or transparency), that whole process is pretty **** vague to everybody including mbr members so it's hard for anyone to provide you with a real answer

but if you have a question about why a stage is legal? mbr members are people just like everyone else, have stuff to do like everyone else, etc; nobody's assigned to watch all threads between 4 and 8 pm and respond to every demand. go to any thread that DOES have existing detailed and thought-provoking discussion of the subjects and I can almost guarantee you that multiple mbr members have given their input at some point

I don't care about a single person's opinion, I want to see the collected information from the thread, it doesn't have to have names. I want to see how the thought process went.

 

[pockyD]

I don't care about a single person's opinion, I want to see the collected information from the thread, it doesn't have to have names. I want to see how the thought process went.

about what?

seriously, give an issue, and if i can find a post not in the MBR explaining it, will you stop complaining?

i personally agree that it should be transparent, but it's far out of my hands and it's something i've come to realize will never get changed

the information is seriously all available in the public though; ESPECIALLY concerning the stages, when i first read the mbr thread i was "disappointed" (i wasn't REALLY disappointed, but it sounds like you would have been) that it was all arguments that i had already seen before

 

[Deleted member]

I can move topics in the MBR out here, but again if members know what will eventually be revealed, it will skew their rationale.

So for the time being, I'd rather just troll. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

*bans self*

 

[The Good Doctor]

if members know what will eventually be revealed, it will skew their rationale.

I was going to post about this comment, but I'm really just done. This has been a waste of time arguing with someone that obviously just wants to be sarcastic and mean when member just want to know something. I'm not trying to insult you, but you and the MBR should give detailed reasons behind your rule changes, since some TO's will stupidly just copy and past these new rules.

@pocky
All I wanted to know was the thought process behind the banning of Stadium, I did not however want to hear things like "that stage is janky" or "Fox/Falco **** there" People have been asking and all I've been seeing is one liners, not a detailed description like Pink Reaper posted.

 

[pockyD]

does it really NEED to be any deeper than "sometimes a giant tree or mountain comes out of the stage for 30 seconds"?

 

[jugfingers]

Elitest jerk and intelligent is still better than Everone's Friend and ********. Umbreon is not the sole voice nor the leader of the MBR, but he is right. In terms of the general community, their decision making skills are abhorrent. To give you an idea, anyone who says "jiggs is top tier" and then uses the reasoning "Because Mango and HBox win" is extremely wrong.

I find the "Let people in cus they're good" argument amazing by the way. M2K has been in the MBR forever and he about once a month he asserts what the "Real tier list" is, and it's usually radically different every time. Now this is in no way saying i don't think M2K should not be in the MBR, he's extremely intelligent and knows alot about the game, but it doesn't stop him from being flat out wrong some times. And knowing the community and their level of general fanboyism, they'd take M2K's tier list(s) as correct every single time.


@Jugfingers, you want info? Here:

Pokemon Stadium fell to Counterpick due to the necessity of an odd number of stages for stage striking. That necessity led to an argument about whether we should drop one of the current Neutrals to CP or add one of the current CP's to the Neutral list. I as well as a few others argued that Kongo Jungle could rather safely be added to the Neutral list as with striking the chances of something like Pink Shinobi vs Rock Crock happening match one would be about 0% however I was eventually swayed when it was pointed out that adding KJ64 would in fact be meaningless as it would almost always get eliminated and never see play round one anyways, as well as to the fact that PS is only truly neutral for 3 of it's 5 forms. If every form was a stand alone stage the Rock and Fire stages would be outright banned. Since they only last a short amount of time it's not significant enough to require a ban however I do agree that they are intrusive enough to gameplay to remove from the neutral list. FoD was discussed as was Yoshi Story but in the end neither of these stages were particularly troublesome so they were ignored.

As for the counterpick list there's still some debate. Some stages(Green Greens, Jungle Japes) were pretty much unanimously voted for ban, however certain stages, namely Corneria and Mute City were deeply debated. Some players felt the stages were too strong for certain characters, that Fox wins instantly by counter picking Corneria and that Peach/Jiggs win instantly by picking Mute City and that these characters already have too many other strong counter pick stages, so giving them more options only degrades the counter pick system into "You win/I win/You win" with certain characters. I personally was actually against these bans, I don't feel that either stage is an instant win for any characters. There were constantly references brought up about certain matches, certain players winning or losing with those characters on those stages and while I don't feel that any of those matches prove one point or the other, I do feel that it creates enough of a gray area that perhaps we shouldn't jump on one decision too soon. But alas, we had to make a decision and in truth Im not particularly angry that those stages got dropped. The fact that there was that gray area also means that while the stages might not be outright broken they are obviously far stronger counter picks than many other stages so it's not something to get upset about.


So there, now you have information, happy? As for the secrecy thing, are you really so foolish that you don't understand the ridiculous amount of spam that would be created should the MBR become viewable by the general public? The "I think Scar/KishPrime/Ankoku/Pink Reaper is wrong" threads that would pop up constantly in the Melee Discussion. And im not talking the productive well thought out kind of threads, im talking the "Because I can beat my brothers fox with Pichu by taunt canceling and using Up B Trixies" threads. Have some common sense, certain things are kept secret because for every 5 or 6 members who have been here more than a two years and know what's appropriate to post, there's 20 more who don't. And yes, you SHOULD be banned for what you're doing, your flaming and disrespecting a moderator(you know, something that's against the rules) as well as spamming. You want some information? Ask. We'll answer. If you just post "LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL MBR SUX, I CAN'T SEE IT!" then you're really only hurting your "The general public isn't ********" cause.

"@jugfingers you want info"

lol I never asked for any specific information or implied that I wanted to know specifically what the backroom does or talks about, I was simply addressing the argument of secrecy. but thanks.

if a mod is going to post foolish arguments in an "open forum" than offering a rebuttal is not spamming/trolling/flaming or being disrespectful.



also why would you assume that, "I think Scar/KishPrime/Ankoku/Pink Reaper is wrong threads" would be spam. they might contain very valid refutations of backroom conclusions, contrary to your belief the backroom is not the pinnacle of intelligence.

what are these boards for? what is wrong with the dissent of the commoners. lol

I can move topics in the MBR out here, but again if members know what will eventually be revealed, it will skew their rationale.

So for the time being, I'd rather just troll. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

*bans self*

LOLOLOLOL was my way of communicating how hard I was laughing at your post, I guess I just find irony funny or something I dunno.

also giving me infractions for disagreeing with you is pretty sad bro,


sorry, how is it that you are reaching the conclusion that an open discussion skews rational?

first of all the only way rational could be skewed is if your rational was perfect to begin with as the word skew implies distortion from a true value. and if all the members of the backroom had perfect rational than there would be no need to discuss anything as everyone would have the same conclusion reached from their equally perfect rational.

so the very fact that your having discussions refutes any notion that the backrooom members all have perfect rational.

so lets use the word change instead of skew.

also rational isn't really the most accurate term either as it is the method in which data and arguments are analyzed, which is something that probably wouldn't be changed in an open forum, so lets rephrase your statement as

"it will change their conclusions"

now the only way that this could occur is if an argument proposed Convinced a backroom member to change his/her conclusion, if we are to assume that backroom members are intelligent than there should be no problem with this. as an argument well articulated enough to change a backroom members mind about an issue must be an intelligent argument.

if you disagree with this then please explain why you think revealing the backroom discussions would skew members in a negative fashion.

does it really NEED to be any deeper than "sometimes a giant tree or mountain comes out of the stage for 30 seconds"?

this post should win a brilliancy award

 

[LAX_]

lol who cares what the MBR is talking about.
let them do whatever they do in there.
when they make a final result on melee rules, you can refute it if you don't think it's fair/right.

 

[Stev]

All I wanted to know was the thought process behind the banning of Stadium, I did not however want to hear things like "that stage is janky" or "Fox/Falco **** there" People have been asking and all I've been seeing is one liners, not a detailed description like Pink Reaper posted.

There was an entire thread on this in the fox boards, and I've seen this thread linked to or referred to in several other threads on the general discussion boards. So that's prolly why you haven't seen any full out responses.

on a separate note (forgot who said this) yes, you WILL get spam from lots of noobs who don't know what they're talking about. I remember (maybe on the fox boards) someone was ripping plank about the pound 4 rule set calling him the worst TO ever, not even knowing who plank is. Imagine that happening over and over again for other stuff because people haven't been around for a while. While YOU may not cause the spam, it WILL happen.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

there was another thread in the marth boards that had more discussion iirc.....

 

[KAOSTAR]

The back room being reopened just shows that melee is alive and well and will be regulated to some degree usually making it more fun.

 

[Comrade]

Agreed. Be happy that melee is once again GROWING in size and play the **** game.

Either way, you're not forced to follow the MBR.

 

[TresChikon]

Elitest jerk and intelligent is still better than Everone's Friend and ********.

Wow. Pink Reaper is a genius, where does he get his stuff?

This is like legit RL advice.



I like the MBR. I don't know why people have issues.

It seems like some people can't accept the fact that not everyone in the world is a nice, gentle, soft-spoken person. I agree that pockyD and Umbreon can seem condescending, however as harsh as it may seem at first, I wouldn't have it any other way because, in truth, it's their elitism that ultimately led me to become a more careful and prudent thinker and I deeply thank them for this.

Whenever I got something horribly wrong, it's their sarcasm that forced me to go out and look for information and educate myself instead of whining, acting like a baby, and asking for others to hold my hand along the way. I felt bad at the time, but people have no idea how lucky they are to have someone there to occasionally facepalm them back to reality.

If you can't accept that, fine, stay in LaLa land where everyone is supposed to continuously compliment and adore you for sub-par performance.

 

[john!]

Wow. Pink Reaper is a genius, where does he get his stuff?

This is like legit RL advice.



I like the MBR. I don't know why people have issues.

It seems like some people can't accept the fact that not everyone in the world is a nice, gentle, soft-spoken person. I agree that pockyD and Umbreon can seem condescending, however as harsh as it may seem at first, I wouldn't have it any other way because, in truth, it's their elitism that ultimately led me to become a more careful and prudent thinker and I deeply thank them for this.

Whenever I got something horribly wrong, it's their sarcasm that forced me to go out and look for information and educate myself instead of whining, acting like a baby, and asking for others to hold my hand along the way. I felt bad at the time, but people have no idea how lucky they are to have someone there to occasionally facepalm them back to reality.

If you can't accept that, fine, stay in LaLa land where everyone is supposed to continuously compliment and adore you for sub-par performance.

That actually is not very good RL advice for a few reasons. It's very easy for someone to sound intelligent and really have no idea what they're talking about. They just have purely selfish motives. Sometimes it takes someone without an understanding of the details to grasp the big picture. Usually if someone has to resort to being a douchebag, then their argument contains very little substance.

I know that the MBR has their reasons for being secretive and that's great. I think the criteria they use for admission are pretty bad (imo it should be based heavily on tourney performance, and not who plays Super Theory Bros. better on SWF). Those who lurk "MaNg0 Stuff About Puff" know that Mango and Hbox actually know what they're talking about, despite posting like IM chatters.

At any rate, the MBR really doesn't have much power at all. People are still using the old stage list, and others are trying to mathematically formulate a tier list based on character matchups. I think the MBR would garner more respect and become more influential if they let in just the best players and not randoms from the forum.

 

[TresChikon]

That is true, and there is and always will be a handful of jerks who behave negatively for dark ulterior motives.

However, there are members here such as pockyD who genuinely try to guide misguided users to think more carefully in an albeit stern, but effective way.

I'm not implying for anyone to swallow everything they hear without a grain of salt, but at least don't go about the misconception that everyone who seems "mean" is necessarily out to get you.

 

[jugfingers]

in truth, it's their elitism that ultimately led me to become a more careful and prudent thinker and I deeply thank them for this.

Whenever I got something horribly wrong, it's their sarcasm that forced me to go out and look for information and educate myself instead of whining, acting like a baby, and asking for others to hold my hand along the way. I felt bad at the time, but people have no idea how lucky they are to have someone there to occasionally facepalm them back to reality.

If you can't accept that, fine, stay in LaLa land where everyone is supposed to continuously compliment and adore you for sub-par performance.

see this is precisely the reason why the Backroom or any other form of discussion should not be secret, because being vulnerable to criticism will make you think more carefully. (period)

unless of course your discussing a secret Orycteropus powered rocket and don't want anyone to know about it..

 

[Stev]

see this is precisely the reason why the Backroom or any other form of discussion should not be secret, because being vulnerable to criticism will make you think more carefully. (period)

At the same time it makes people present a certain image that's not how they truely feel. Why do you think people sell out?

 

[Doc71890]

Pokemon Stadium should be neutral pick and Corneria should still be a counterpick

 

[BigD!!!]

whoa now, doc bringing out the big guns

 

[St. Viers]

Dudes, just make a melee front room. If people get jealous of that, those people can make their own melee attic loft, or the melee sideroom, or the melee wraparound enclosed veranda.

To me, the people complaining just sound jealous that they aren't allowed in.

 

[jugfingers]

At the same time it makes people present a certain image that's not how they truely feel. Why do you think people sell out?

are you saying everyone that posts in non BR discussions on smashboards which is an open forum are sell outs and only post views that conform to popular opinion....? If you really think about you'll see that this is not the case.

this would only happen if there was some threat, some possibility of loss that could occur from posting an controversial view.

But there's not, the worst thing that could happen is that someone would disagree with you.

Dudes, just make a melee front room. If people get jealous of that, those people can make their own melee attic loft, or the melee sideroom, or the melee wraparound enclosed veranda.

To me, the people complaining just sound jealous that they aren't allowed in.

thank you sir, for proving an earlier argument I made that the backroom remains secret so members can feel like their in a secret club lol,

I don't care what goes on in the backroom, and from the members of the backroom that have posted in this thread minus(pocky D) it doesn't really seem like you have the most elite squad, certainly nothing to be jealous about.

the only reason I'm talking about this is because of post by mows that you can read if you go back a few pages that I found very funny, I just think that backroom secrecy is indefensible from a logical point of view.

you guys are like the smash communities version of the Bilderberg Group.

and considering that last post you made the MBR will probably take that as a compliment lol.

 

[Skler]

If we aren't important why do you want to see what we talk about? Let us have our secret yacht parties and go on with your own life.

Seeing our debates over things wouldn't be important since we post what we come up with and then explain why if people ask questions. It's not like we post rules and then don't explain our position on it if asked.

So, jug, why do you want to see the debates about stages/rules when we'll explain how we reached a decision anyways?

Edit: Yesterday my friend fell through Pokemon Stadium while we were talking about why it got switched. Fantastic timing, stadium.

 

[jugfingers]

If we aren't important why do you want to see what we talk about? Let us have our secret yacht parties and go on with your own life.

Seeing our debates over things wouldn't be important since we post what we come up with and then explain why if people ask questions. It's not like we post rules and then don't explain our position on it if asked.

So, jug, why do you want to see the debates about stages/rules when we'll explain how we reached a decision anyways?

.

let me answer your question with another question, why would you conceal your discussion when your going to have explain your decision anyways?

if it was viewable to everyone, then anyone interested in how you reached your conclusion could simply view the discussion, and you wouldn't have to go to the trouble of explaining it again. this is mathematically more efficient,

also like Ive said before, I don't actually care what you talk about, if its going to be secret thats fine with me, but just don't try to logically defend your secrecy in an open forum.

because secrecy is foolish. there's only a handful of reasons for secrecy and

they either pertain to hiding embarrassment, or protecting valuable information from an enemy.

neither should apply in this situation...well maybe hiding embarrassment...but Im sure thats not the reason.

 

[St. Viers]

It's similar to why juries deliberate in secret, so that people from the outside can't try and influence a decision by the jury, because they can't see who thinks what or even what the general consensus is.

Also, once the MBR has a consensus, it becomes much easier to go public with the decision, as at that time the members of the MBR will have an official stance. They wouldn't have to hedge or say, "while I think x, others think y" which makes them look disunified and less able to be taken seriously (even if that's not the case). Same thing goes for any group w/ a decision making team. In the couple jobs I've had, (being both in said circle and outside it) you see the same thing. Just because the MBR isn't technically anyone's bosses (or superiors, outside of player skill/knowledge) doesn't mean they won't function the same way. It works, is normal and all I can say is that people arguing against it need to get used to the real world, where this happens, and proves it's usefulness.

 

[Skler]

St. Viers knows his stuff and should be listened to.

That is all.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yea pretty much.

Its easier to work in smaller groups. Its more efficient, to come to any sort of consensus. Its also easier to be candid in smaller groups where you know everyone is going to be mild mannered and non judgmental. Moderation is typically made up of an elitist few who have proven themselves in one way or another to be a cast above the rest. In this case, either being extremely good at the game, or proving to have an in depth knowledge of the game through their post on SWF.

Saying it be solely composed of top level tournament placers is dumb. I wouldnt say a statisticians opinion didnt matter because he couldnt dunk or goes 0 for 8 at the freethrow line.

This is not life or death, or the country's economy. Its just a video game. The MBR is a tournament comity that discusses and makes suggestions on official tournament play to make it fair and as fun as possible. Not to mention its not composed of idiots or full of spam.

Besides the MBR is nothing more than a group with a private selection of users. If anybody has a problem with that-just go make a group that is moderated and private for group viewing only and dont let any of the MBR members in. Im sure they'll feel terrible.

http://www.smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=1748
no more whining

 

[jugfingers]

It's similar to why juries deliberate in secret, so that people from the outside can't try and influence a decision by the jury, because they can't see who thinks what or even what the general consensus is.

Also, once the MBR has a consensus, it becomes much easier to go public with the decision, as at that time the members of the MBR will have an official stance. They wouldn't have to hedge or say, "while I think x, others think y" which makes them look disunified and less able to be taken seriously (even if that's not the case). Same thing goes for any group w/ a decision making team. In the couple jobs I've had, (being both in said circle and outside it) you see the same thing. Just because the MBR isn't technically anyone's bosses (or superiors, outside of player skill/knowledge) doesn't mean they won't function the same way. It works, is normal and all I can say is that people arguing against it need to get used to the real world, where this happens, and proves it's usefulness.

Jurors are forced to deliberate in secret, its not something that juries decide would be the best way to reach a decision. hell jurors for the most part don't even want to be in a jury.

the composition of a final jury is essentially a team, one side for conviction one side against, half of the people on the jury were desired by one lawyer half were desired by the other, with some gray area in between possibly.

The reason for secrecy is because a trial is essentially a game, and influencing from outside is unfair play, similar to if some opposing fan ran onto the court during a basketball game and blocked a shot. this is why the court is called a court and the judge dresses like a referee. the jurors are also not experts in the matters that there dealing with, their just people picked at random and then assorted according to some lawyers, this is why
outside influence is a major issue, because in most cases these people don't even want to be there deliberating and if they knew the popular opinion they might just go with that and get the hell out of their. its not really a similar situation to the backroom.

another major reason for the secrecy of the discussion is for the protection of the jurors safety which also has nothing to do with the backroom in this situation

once the MBR has a consensus, it becomes much easier to go public with the decision, as at that time the members of the MBR will have an official stance. They wouldn't have to hedge or say, "while I think x, others think y" which makes them look disunified and less able to be taken seriously

see this is the problem with the backroom and its decisions, the idea that your conclusion are official and final is naive. what you've reached is your best estimation thus far.

Its like the official final tier list that you put out. obviously the tier list isn't correct , trying to finalize anything in a game this deep is ridiculous.

trying to unify an official stance as the truth is a blunder, because its simply what you've come up with so far, but will certainly change in the future.

if the MBR was open this would be a much more fluid process rather than trying to formulate an official stance, just have an on going discussion that is constantly evolving, and whatever stage/ruleset that is currently in favor is suggested to be used at current tournaments.


trying to counterfeit authority through forced unification is a bad move.

Yea pretty much.

Its easier to work in smaller groups. Its more efficient, to come to any sort of consensus. Its also easier to be candid in smaller groups where you know everyone is going to be mild mannered and non judgmental. Moderation is typically made up of an elitist few who have proven themselves in one way or another to be a cast above the rest. In this case, either being extremely good at the game, or proving to have an in depth knowledge of the game through their post on SWF.

Saying it be solely composed of top level tournament placers is dumb. I wouldnt say a statisticians opinion didnt matter because he couldnt dunk or goes 0 for 8 at the freethrow line.

This is not life or death, or the country's economy. Its just a video game. The MBR is a tournament comity that discusses and makes suggestions on official tournament play to make it fair and as fun as possible. Not to mention its not composed of idiots or full of spam.

Besides the MBR is nothing more than a group with a private selection of users. If anybody has a problem with that-just go make a group that is moderated and private for group viewing only and dont let any of the MBR members in. Im sure they'll feel terrible.

http://www.smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=1748
no more whining

first of all suggesting that the MBR is nothing more than a group with a private selection of users is simply incorrect, MBR is a group with a private selection of users, but is certainly more than that, as they essentially decide rule/stage lists for major tournaments
also you clearly don't understand the argument Im proposing because it has nothing to do with being left out of a secret club. but your suggestion of creating a group and excluding backroom members certainly reveals the way you think about the backroom in relation to the rest of the smash community.

the only point i'm trying to refute is in this particular situation, conversing in secret is somehow advantageous to transparency.

yes of course working in smaller groups is more effective at reaching a conclusion.

of course just having one person would be the most efficient

but working in small groups being effective, doesn't mean that working in secret small groups is even more effective. working in secret small groups is not any less effective that working in transparent small groups but certainly not more.

if there were only certain members that could post in the backroom but was viewable to everyone, I guarantee it would be nearly identical to the discussion that happens now.
because the same people would be still be posting,
it would be the same threads with the same topic. of course there would be a few threads in the melee discussion discussing the same topics, and why the backroom members are either right or wrong, but this would probably be much more intelligent and productive discussion than a lot of the threads in melee discussion talking about certain quirks of the game like what the worst john you ever heard is and what your favorite character color is etc.

again it seems like the reason for secrecy is to avoid criticism.


right now the fact that my posts are viewable to anyone who has a computer does not change the content of my posts, I still don't see why the backroom is any different.

let me say this again as I have in my previous posts, I personally do not care about
the specific discussion that happens in the backroom,


all I am against is secrecy in an open society.

 

[KAOSTAR]

first of all suggesting that the MBR is nothing more than a group with a private selection of users is simply incorrect, MBR is a group with a private selection of users, but is certainly more than that, as they essentially decide rule/stage lists for major tournaments

Moderation is typically made up of an elitist few who have proven themselves in one way or another to be a cast above the rest. In this case, either being extremely good at the game, or proving to have an in depth knowledge of the game through their post on SWF.

The MBR is a tournament comity that discusses and makes suggestions on official tournament play to make it fair and as fun as possible. Not to mention its not composed of idiots or full of spam.

Whats point did you make that I havent already? I think you left some things out.

also you clearly don't understand the argument Im proposing because it has nothing to do with being left out of a secret club. but your suggestion of creating a group and excluding backroom members certainly reveals the way you think about the backroom in relation to the rest of the smash community.

The purpose of that was to show that the argument is dumb. and what exactly does it propose that I think about the back room in relation to the rest of the smash community? Its a selection of some of the best smashers and players who through the interwebs of melee have proven to have exceptional knowledge about the game. I wouldnt leave official decisions to anyone else, if you would then you are an idiot.

the only point i'm trying to refute is in this particular situation, conversing in secret is somehow advantageous to transparency.

yes of course working in smaller groups is more effective at reaching a conclusion.

of course just having one person would be the most efficient

but working in small groups being effective, doesn't mean that working in secret small groups is even more effective. working in secret small groups is not any less effective that working in transparent small groups but certainly not more.

if there were only certain members that could post in the backroom but was viewable to everyone, I guarantee it would be nearly identical to the discussion that happens now.
because the same people would be still be posting,
it would be the same threads with the same topic. of course there would be a few threads in the melee discussion discussing the same topics, and why the backroom members are either right or wrong, but this would probably be much more intelligent and productive discussion than a lot of the threads in melee discussion talking about certain quirks of the game like what the worst john you ever heard is and what your favorite character color is etc.

again it seems like the reason for secrecy is to avoid criticism.

For one point this is a large body of text.

The fact of the matter is, you cant come up with any realistic benefits of it being viewable by all; whereas, there are some that are easily apparent for the converse.

Member opinions wont be held against them during deliberation. Each member says what they really think and a decision is made.

There is no reason for everyone to see all the grinds and gears of the clock, all you need to know is what time it is.

If you think the MBR is secret to avoid criticism, then how do you eliminate the possibility that if it were viewable by all, the posters would not post in away to avoid criticism.

You made a guaranteed that the discussion would not change if it were viewable but I guaranteed that is not guaranteed. Why even risk it?

right now the fact that my posts are viewable to anyone who has a computer does not change the content of my posts, I still don't see why the backroom is any different.

let me say this again as I have in my previous posts, I personally do not care about
the specific discussion that happens in the backroom,


all I am against is secrecy in an open society.

You are not held to a higher standard, you are not held by any in a higher regard. You are not given any additional responsibility and you blend in with the masses.

The content of your post are what they are, and there is no way to prove that they wouldnt change otherwise.

 

[St. Viers]

Kaos--nice post, but at this point it's obvious that he's just trolling. He's ignoring peoples points, and has failed to say why exactly they are wrong, except that "secrecy is bad." I'd go into more detail into how exactly he's slipping around people's posts, but I don't really think I need to.

 

[jugfingers]

Moderation is typically made up of an elitist few who have proven themselves in one way or another to be a cast above the rest. In this case, either being extremely good at the game, or proving to have an in depth knowledge of the game through their post on SWF.

The MBR is a tournament comity that discusses and makes suggestions on official tournament play to make it fair and as fun as possible. Not to mention its not composed of idiots or full of spam.

Whats point did you make that I havent already? I think you left some things out.

my point was that they are not simply a private group as you suggested they were, they have rule and stage determining powers, other private groups do not.

The purpose of that was to show that the argument is dumb.

that would be relevant if that was indeed the argument, it is not.

and what exactly does it propose that I think about the back room in relation to the rest of the smash community? Its a selection of some of the best smashers and players who through the interwebs of melee have proven to have exceptional knowledge about the game. I wouldnt leave official decisions to anyone else, if you would then you are an idiot.

suggesting that those opposed to the backroom make their own secret group and not let any backroom members in implies that you consider the exclusiveness of the backroom as a major attribute. which in theory it should be just considered a group of smash intellectuals, as you stated above.

The fact of the matter is, you cant come up with any realistic benefits of it being viewable by all;

-with a great deal of scrutiny backroom members would be more likely to articulate their ideas more clearly and concisely. provide more solid arguments in light of the fact that anyone with a smashboard account could post a thread as to why they are either right or wrong.

-you wouldn't have to re- explain your decisions, anyone could simply read the threads for themselves.

-if any smashboard member could read the backroom discussion a large portion of the community could probably learn a great deal about whatever you discuss, character match-ups, stage weakness's etc.

-people interested in the tier list could read your discussions as to why you reached those conclusions, just providing a tier list doesn't explain very much and explaining the tier list in detail would take the amount of time you spent discussion it in the first place.

Basically it would be providing useful information to the entire smash community and at the same time increasing the quality of discussion

whereas, there are some that are easily apparent for the converse.

enlighten me.

Member opinions wont be held against them during deliberation. Each member says what they really think and a decision is made.

why wouldn't the members say what they really think in public? if they really believe in what there saying than there should be no reason to say something else.

There is no reason for everyone to see all the grinds and gears of the clock, all you need to know is what time it is.

one of the most condescending statements I have ever heard

You just tell us what to think, and that's what were supposed to think?

please, you can't be serious.

If you think the MBR is secret to avoid criticism, then how do you eliminate the possibility that if it were viewable by all, the posters would not post in away to avoid criticism.

I would hope they would post to avoid criticism. I would hope that they made sure that their arguments were rock solid as to be immune to criticism. criticism thrives upon weakness, being vulnerable to criticism should only you make you think more and make your arguments stronger.

You made a guaranteed that the discussion would not change if it were viewable but I guaranteed that is not guaranteed. Why even risk it?

risk what?

risk that the backroom would lose its mysterious glamor?

do you really think the backroom would suddenly collapse if a few more people were reading the posts.

You are not held to a higher standard, you are not held by any in a higher regard. You are not given any additional responsibility and you blend in with the masses.

The content of your post are what they are, and there is no way to prove that they wouldn't change otherwise.

the differences between someone posting with no responsibility, and posting with responsibility,

are not the same as the differences between someone posting in secret and someone posting in the open.

certainly if I had some sort of responsibility that I believed I had to uphold I would post accordingly.

but this would be the same be it among a few people or many.

Kaos--nice post, but at this point it's obvious that he's just trolling. He's ignoring peoples points, and has failed to say why exactly they are wrong, except that "secrecy is bad." I'd go into more detail into how exactly he's slipping around people's posts, but I don't really think I need to.

I have yet to see a logical refutation of why secrecy isn't bad.

your comparison to a jury failed to convince me lol.

I'd go into more detail into how exactly he's slipping around people's posts, but I don't really think I need to.

...yes of course, it isn't because im not slipping around peoples posts and am responding specifically their sad attempts at an argument. no that wouldn't be it. its just that you just don't really feel like you have to.


cool, man.


just go take it easy in the backroom, glad that you popped by to post that you don't feel like posting. really, very helpful and not at all pretentious or arrogant.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

@jugfingers

Do you know anything about this game? If someone asked you your opinion on something and you said the truth, would you?

Now what happens if you say something you believe 100% to be true, and then it ends up being incorrect? What if, on top of that, every person in the smash community reads it and judges you based on it? Would you ever want to post your opinion again, knowing that you could be wrong?

The back room discussions are like the rough draft of an english paper. You really don't want to show it to anyone when you're done, and there is no reason to. The back room functions as a brainstorm and a logical debate to "get the bugs out" of certain arguments.

In the back room, in private, people can say something they believe and the other people in the back room will explain why they are wrong without judgment or personal attacks, because those are the types of people that were hand selected to join the back room.

 

[jugfingers]

@jugfingers

Do you know anything about this game? If someone asked you your opinion on something and you said the truth, would you?

Now what happens if you say something you believe 100% to be true, and then it ends up being incorrect? What if, on top of that, every person in the smash community reads it and judges you based on it? Would you ever want to post your opinion again, knowing that you could be wrong?

The back room discussions are like the rough draft of an english paper. You really don't want to show it to anyone when you're done, and there is no reason to. The back room functions as a brainstorm and a logical debate to "get the bugs out" of certain arguments.

In the back room, in private, people can say something they believe and the other people in the back room will explain why they are wrong without judgment or personal attacks, because those are the types of people that were hand selected to join the back room.

if I posted something that was wrong, and everyone called me out on it I would be more likely to try and bring some strong foundation to my argument the next time I posted, and would also be grateful that I had learned something new rather than perpetuating a falsehood.


You only don't want to show someone a rough draft if it blows.
just because something isn't between two pieces of hardcover doesn't mean its not worth reading. think about your favorite novel, do you not think that you could gain valuable insights from its rough draft, looking at the process of creation rather than just the end product.


Why do you think personal attacks and "judgments"(lol) would sway someones opinion

people believe certain things because of how they have processed information and data pertaining to that topic, being called an idiot doesn't sway your conclusion unless infact you are an idiot.

 

[Meneks]

Hey guys is it really that serious?
You guys are arguing about a group that makes optional rules for a game that involves the super ****ing mario brothers..
You guys are typing pages and pages of nonsense that(isn't useful to you or anyone else)
and replaying to arguements that are probably never going to end because everyone is too ****ed stubborn to accept defeat because their "internet egos" will be hurt..
Get a live its a game..
Go play it and enjoy ****

 

[jugfingers]

Hey guys is it really that serious?
You guys are arguing about a group that makes optional rules for a game that involves the super ****ing mario brothers..
You guys are typing pages and pages of nonsense that(isn't useful to you or anyone else)
and replaying to arguements that are probably never going to end because everyone is too ****ed stubborn to accept defeat because their "internet egos" will be hurt..
Get a live its a game..
Go play it and enjoy ****

cmon man this is the smashboards, its for discussion.

thinking can be fun too.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

if I posted something that was wrong, and everyone called me out on it I would be more likely to try and bring some strong foundation to my argument the next time I posted, and would also be grateful that I had learned something new rather than perpetuating a falsehood.

You contradicted yourself here. You say you're going to accept you're wrong and not perpetuate a falsehood, yet you're going to come back and support the argument that was proven wrong?

This is probably the entire reason why you're still posting here...

 

[jugfingers]

You contradicted yourself here. You say you're going to accept you're wrong and not perpetuate a falsehood, yet you're going to come back and support the argument that was proven wrong?

This is probably the entire reason why you're still posting here...

when I said bring a strong foundation to my argument next time I posted I meant any argument I might postulate in the future, not the issue that had been proven false.

sorry I thought that was obvious. mmmm actually it might have been, probably required the reader to understand the argument rather trying to find a fault in the semantics though. my bad should have posted a disclaimer.

 

[Pink Reaper]

oooh look at me, im UmbreonMow and I think Im all cool and stuff. I don't pay parking tickets, get evicted from my house and the cops think my name is May.

Eat a ****ing croissant.

Personal attacks never happen in the Melee Back Room

 

[Mogwai]

reading is hard...

anyone (not pink reaper) wanna summarize what people are still fighting about in here in 200 words or less?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

jugfingers thinks backroom should be 100% visible to the public

 

[jugfingers]

I think that any type of intellectual discussion of any kind should be available to everyone.
which includes the backroom discussion, I assume.

 

[Mogwai]

then just make threads about it out here. I mean, I vocally hate the MBR as much as, if not more than, anyone else, but it seems like the best way to undermine them is to have the same discussions in a public place so that you have something to point to whereas they just sorta say "trust us, this is how it should be."

*shrugs*