Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Pikachu

[Kataefi]

Matchup Rediscussion: Pikachu
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Zelda vs Pikachu


- What to know about this matchup...
​

• He will attempt chip damage on Zelda by outspacing and outcamping with Tjolts. Din's fire cannot reliably counter camp. They can, at certain distances and during certain situations, overpower his Tjolts and strike him. However, such situations are unreliable. Best option is to powershield and approach. Nayru's can also reflect if the pika is hasty to rush in or as a mixup. As trivia, Dtilt also cancels out this projectile. Platforms can also help avoid his camp game.

• Pika will bait an approach and look for openings in Zelda to punish. Tjolts from afar can often bait shields giving pika a chance to rush in and attempt a grab. His mobility and speed allows him to run circles around Zelda and bait committed attacks such as Usmashes.
  

• Though Pika cannot chaingrab her, Fthrow and Dthrow are good combo setups. Especially at earlier percents. Jump out of these setups before Pika can run in and reach her. For Fthrow, panic tools such as Dsmash and Nayru's, at very early percents, will not work in time.

• Beware of FF Fair. SDI up and jump out of it to avoid the last hit. Another combo setup. It can link to various other moves from the electric hitstun, and can place pressure on shields. Zelda is unable to grab Pika if this connects on her shield. If she is hit during the attack, SDI up and jump out to escape. If the last hit connects, DI up and away from Pikachu to prevent him from juggling.

• Pikachu has a variety of kill moves and punishers that can finish Zelda quickly if landed. Though they are not always easy to land on her. This includes Nair (also OoS) at later percents, the utilt setup into thunder, Usmash and sweetspot Fsmash. DI sharply to the left or right to avoid the utilt > thunder setup. Maintain good spacing to avoid the sweetspot Fsmash. Look out for signs of his Nair and Usmash as these are both relatively quick. He can run up and Usmash OoS on a variety of Zelda's large cooldown attacks so be wary of using such attacks at later percents.

• He has issues dealing with Zelda's superior ground range. His ground moves bar Fsmash are vastly outranged. And though Fsmash can hit, it doesn't sweetspot. This can make it relatively difficult to get inside her, usually for the kill.
  

• He is prone to Dtilt due to his weight and body size. Dtilt begins to achieve frame advantages from as early as 40% though is best used around 50% onwards. His very small stature means he will need to take more hits before he can SDI them.
  

• Recovering with Zelda can be difficult. His quick movement speed can catch her easily. He can jump out and aerial her during the startup of her teleport if within range. He can also pressure the edge with thunder, though this isn't as effective against Zelda than other characters due to the nature of her teleport and reflector abilities.

• Nayru's reflects Thunder. He places himself at a risk when using this against her. Unless he wavebounces the thunder, he will be struck. Wait for the audio cue of 'PIKA!' and then reflect.
  

• Pika's recovery options are vast. QA can cover long distances and the majority of angles. Skull bash is a good momentum canceller but is linear and prone to Din's on its startup and cooldown. It is also prone to a spike or uair if within range.

• Zelda can even things out with superior killing ability. Pika is often difficult to hit due to high mobility, though a well placed power aerial will often spell death for him very early. Usmash and Utilt kill him as low as 100%, and Dsmash near the ledge can pose a threat early on or kill him outright at much later percents from the middle if the opponent doesn't tech. He cannot afford to tango with Zelda damage-wise as she has stronger raw killing power.
  

- Useful Information...
​

• SDI up and out of his Dsmash. There should be a good deal of time to avoid the last hit of this attack.
  

• Don't catch Pika on the sides of your Usmash. He can SDI and fall through it, giving him time to punish the cooldown. Space so that the attack catches him in the middle.

• If he decides to QAC, catch him out with a lingering hitbox. QAC is a Pika technique acting as a form of quick movement with damaging properties. It is very prone to lingering hitboxes however - Nayru's, Usmash, Utilt, Nair can all catch it.
  

• Try to maintain a percent lead if possible. You cannot afford to let him plank or ledgecamp you. Should he get the percent lead, wisen up to all his kill options, as he can then build momentum if he gets the first kill. Should you get the kill first, you are in an advantageous position to play defensively as much as possible, something Pika will not enjoy.
  

 

[GodAtHand]

I don't think I have ever played a good Pikachu.

All I know is that:
Dins can cancel his thunderjolt.
Nayru's reflects thunder.

...

 

[KayLo!]

Ohhh man! I'm going to write a ****ing essay on this matchup, lol.

........But not now. Probably later tonight, or on Tuesday when I get back from VA. x.x

 

[mountain_tiger]

Hey Kaylo, how come you main Meta Knight now? I mean, you're entitled to play who you want, but I just find it strange that you switched from Pikachu...

Anyway, enough of that. I haven't really played Zelda vs Pikachu, like, at all, but from theorycrafting (which I know can often be very inaccurate), I'm going to take the plunge and say that this match-up is around 40:60. I'm not sure if he can FThrow chaingrab us (I'll have to check that), but I know that he can't DThrow chaingrab us, so that's good. SDI out of his DSmash (obvious, I know, but still worth saying), and try to stay at mid range if you can. That way you can Din's both his Thunderjolts and him without as much risk, and also his kill moves usually require you to be close in (USmash has tiny range; FSmash has long range but is only strong at the sweetspot near his nose). You can expect him to use Fair to approach, and if you're in the air above him, be careful when you airdodge, because he can bait you into Thunder easily. Once you hear the KA part of 'PI-KA!' of his Thunder move, airdodge immediately and you should avoid it. USmash and UTilt should be your main kill choices here: DSmash doesn't work so much due to his great recovery and such. And obviously being the pipsqueak he is, lightning kicks are very hard to obtain. Oh, and one last thing. His Nair is deadly off-stage, do all you can to avoid it.

All in all, a tough matchup, but still winnable and not as bad as some of the matchups she has against top tiers.

 

[KayLo!]

Hey Kaylo, how come you main Meta Knight now? I mean, you're entitled to play who you want, but I just find it strange that you switched from Pikachu...

I don't, but I do second him now. The icon is just a joke, hehe.... mostly because I had a few convos recently about people who abandon their main and hop on MK's **** just because he's the best character.

I'd never give up maining Pikachu! I have way too much fun playing him.

On-topic until I write my huge post: I'd give this matchup 43:57. Or 40:60 for people who like "nice" numbers. It's winnable, but I think the main thing hurting Zelda here is that she's so gimptastic while Pikachu does very well off-stage.

Whenever I win Zelda vs. Pika (playing as Zelda), I win because the Pika doesn't know the matchup, or the player just isn't as good as I am.

 

[Kataefi]

Feels closer to even for me for some reason. I don't think pikachu's very good at gimping zelda >.> but I'll wait for your massive post =D I'm sure you've got the tricks and traps down.

On a side note... I've learnt to powershield tjolts consistently now

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I haven't played a pikachu proficient at gimping, but without gimps, Zelda doesn't seem too afraid of him. . . not like she dominates him either, but she seems to handle him fine on the stage.

of course, where it's not banned, Zelda gets a massive advantage against the rodent on Luigi's mansion.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think the match up is hard for pikachu. No CG Zelda can be a pain to approach. Thunder can be reflected which means your not as vulnerable. Pika nair is good for edge guarding. Zeldas side B stops pikas side b and just halt momentum. Zeldas dtilt trips which sucks for pikachu. You hit harder you kill sooner. Play smart watch out for nair edgeguards. Dont get mind gamed by QaC and you should easily have this match. 60-40 Big Z. Oh yeah pika short and i believe can crouch under your up smash.

 

[gallax]

the zeldas i play do their best when they let pikachu come to them. making pika have to approach is the difference maker.

 

[sasook]

I'm still awaiting KLo's essay. I'm not even sure how to play this matchup.

 

[KayLo!]

I'm still awaiting KLo's essay. I'm not even sure how to play this matchup.

Four pages and counting. I keep starting it at night, then I end up going out. Which I think is gonna happen again tonight, because I have dinner plans, then Smash at my friend's house.

 

[TLMSheikant]

I beat the best zelda here with TL all the time. But when i switch to pikachu it becomes sooo hard. I say its 55-45 zelda. It can be very tough to approach her with pika.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I beat the best zelda here with TL all the time. But when i switch to pikachu it becomes sooo hard. I say its 55-45 zelda. It can be very tough to approach her with pika.

Toon Link = horrible matchup for zelda.

I don't think ANYONE would debate that you should have a harder time against us with pika than with Toonie... but, yeah, that doesn't sound TOO far off. I'd accept it, though I would accept even and, if I played better pikas more often, maybe even slight advantage pika.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Four pages and counting.

That'll be interesting to read... although it'll take long time for me to finish. (slow reader)

And not to add pressure or anything, but this MU discussion has mostly been standing still, waiting for your epic post that'll make everyone unanimously agree about the ratio announced in it.

Spoiler

jk

 

[KayLo!]

If I don't go out tonight, it'll be done by tonight.

If I do (which I'm 90% sure I will), tomorrow morning, I promise. x.x I didn't realize people were actually waiting, lol. My badz.

 

[mountain_tiger]

No worries, KayLo. We'll forgive you because you're pretty.

 

[-Mars-]

I don't think I have ever played a good Pikachu.

All I know is that:
Dins can cancel his thunderjolt.
Nayru's reflects thunder.

...

Dtilt can cancel Pikas thunderjolt as well and it's much safer.

 

[zeldspazz]

No worries, KayLo. We'll forgive you because you're pretty.

qft 4 pages huh =o

 

[XFadingNirvanaX]

I think Kaylo's writing a book.

 

[Kataefi]

She's waiting for publishment!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'm convinced she's not actually intending to write anything so that we never actually discuss anything here.

 

[zeldspazz]

^ Im starting to think youre right

 

[KayLo!]

****, you figured it out.

But seriously, I just haven't finished yet, lol. I'm not even home right now.

 

[Mocha]

I'm not sure if he can FThrow chaingrab us (I'll have to check that), but I know that he can't DThrow chaingrab us, so that's good. SDI out of his DSmash (obvious, I know, but still worth saying), and try to stay at mid range if you can. That way you can Din's both his Thunderjolts and him without as much risk, and also his kill moves usually require you to be close in (USmash has tiny range; FSmash has long range but is only strong at the sweetspot near his nose). You can expect him to use Fair to approach, and if you're in the air above him, be careful when you airdodge, because he can bait you into Thunder easily. Once you hear the KA part of 'PI-KA!' of his Thunder move, airdodge immediately and you should avoid it. USmash and UTilt should be your main kill choices here: DSmash doesn't work so much due to his great recovery and such. And obviously being the pipsqueak he is, lightning kicks are very hard to obtain. Oh, and one last thing. His Nair is deadly off-stage, do all you can to avoid it.

All in all, a tough matchup, but still winnable and not as bad as some of the matchups she has against top tiers.

You're right, Pika cannot cg Zelda with d-throw, and from the looks of it, f-throw can't either. When I'm using Pika against Zelda, I occasionally get away with two f-throws in a row, but rarely past that. Also when Pika is coming at you with fair, it's likely he'll follow that up with a f-smash or a grab. However he can also be grabbed if you shield his fair. Pika's fair doesn't actually do that much damage, it's used more to string combos and grab follow ups than anything.

For Pika's recovery, when he's far off horizontally on the screen, it's likely he'll use side b first. You can pressure his recovery by using din's while he's using side b, which causes him to lose the full charge of the move and forces him to use up b afterwards. Pay attention to how he recovers and if he becomes too predictable, he can be punished. And you're also right about his Nair being deadly off stage. Sometimes Pika will be on the edge, and it'll look like he's about to down b, and just when you use Nayru's, he'll Nair you instead and could cause a surprise kill if you're not careful.

I'd never give up maining Pikachu! I have way too much fun playing him.

You and I both ^^

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I'm trying to learn this matchup since I've been lucky enough to run into, and get knocked out by ESAM in the past few tournaments. Pikachu has a bunch of combos in the air out of Uair due to Zelda's slow fall.

Ummmm, aside from off the top thunder (good chu's will still get you with this), you should live for a while, especially when you start to do the Nayru's momentum cancel.

That's all I got for right now, this matchup still baffles me. Take this thing to Brinstar and you can be ok.

 

[sniperworm]

Pikachu is great and if there was no Zelda/Sheik that's who I'd be maining. Backwards crawl is legit broken, enough said.

Sometimes Pika will be on the edge, and it'll look like he's about to down b, and just when you use Nayru's, he'll Nair you instead and could cause a surprise kill if you're not careful.

Humans react faster to an auditory stimulus than a visual one, so assuming your sitting at a reasonable distance from the TV where the difference between the time it takes light and sound to travel to you is neglible, it's better to listen for the Thunders than to visually look for them.

I'm convinced she's not actually intending to write anything so that we never actually discuss anything here.

Well then in that case I say that the MU is 80:20 Zelda because Kaylo didn't say anything, lol.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Well then in that case I say that the MU is 80:20 Zelda because Kaylo didn't say anything, lol.

I think that's fair

 

[Mocha]

Pikachu is great and if there was no Zelda/Sheik that's who I'd be maining. Backwards crawl is legit broken, enough said.



Humans react faster to an auditory stimulus than a visual one, so assuming your sitting at a reasonable distance from the TV where the difference between the time it takes light and sound to travel to you is neglible, it's better to listen for the Thunders than to visually look for them.



Well then in that case I say that the MU is 80:20 Zelda because Kaylo didn't say anything, lol.

Is it just me or does it seem that Zelda can give Pika a really hard time? ><;

Of course, this could just be because I haven’t used Pika in so long, but lately he’s been struggling against Zelda. In stages like Battlefield, where Zelda can position herself under a platform… well it simply goes like this: Pika approaches her above the platform, he gets up smashed (naturally. And those up smashes eat him up too). Pika approaches behind or in front of her, he gets forward smashed. Pika camps and uses projectiles, then they’ll get Nayru’d. I mean, he doesn’t seem to have any safe approach on her at a stage like this unless he waits for her to do a mistake and take advantage of it. He can’t even cg her properly.

And yet, I’ve talked to a couple of people in the Pika xat. They think Pika has a slight advantage. So now I’m torn at what to believe, although I’m starting to be more inclined to believe Zelda has the advantage, but this is just from personal experience.

By the way I found a link to the Zelda vs Pika matchup from the Pika boards. This is what they say on the matchup... perhaps this can help us understand the matchup better:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218465

What do you guys think?

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I know what you mean as I've also been a bit unclear what to think about this MU. Some days I can beat a Pika player with no trouble at all and the next that same player just keeps juggling me around the stage like there's no tomorrow.

From theoretical standpoint it's easy to see how Zelda could have an advantage: Pika's CG isn't as effective as in many other matchups, Zelda being light and floaty makes DI:ing his D-smash easy, she has the range advantage and kills him early. NL also actually is an useful reflector unlike usually. She also can stop many of Pika's approaches with her smashes like you said.

However, Pikachu has more than enough things going for him in this match too, most notably (read: problematic) for me being his size combined with his speed. It can be very hard to hit him when he's running and jumping around the stage like a madman thunderjolting you every time there's a safe time to do so. As we all know, you can't kill something you can't hit. This can also almost completely neutralise many of Zelda's sweetspot kill moves.

Then there's also the fact that Pika's aerials have some similar properties with our smashes: they're long-lasting multihit attacks (apart from Nair and Uair), have short startup times and work as effective spacing tools.

Pikachu's also much better at gimping than Zelda. His gimping game isn't quite as bad as many other characters' (at least to me) but it can get really annoying at times. He can really make your recovery a living hell with the effective use of Thunderjolts, Thunder and aerials if you give him the chance for it. I've found myself in the situations where there's simply no other choice but to get hit by one/some of them when I've been forced to recover low. Recovering high instead makes you vulnerably to Thunder and Uair juggling.

I personally think that Pika has a slight advantage but this is mostly based on the fact that I always need to keep my guard up against him, even when I'm in a healthy lead. If I'm at a stock lead he can still very well even the situation but whenever he has the lead I'll have to find a way to approach him without ending up getting juggled myself. It just feels like I'm never in actually advantage in the match, only even or at a small disadvantage. It might just be that i don't play Pika the right way but that's how I see this MU.

Edit: It seems a lot of the stuff I said has already been said at the Pika's MU discussion... oh well.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think Zelda has all the matchup specific advantages here. Pika is just a more solid character.

My personal experience has always shown that Zelda's matchup specific advantages allow her to carry the day, but there are those who claim that pika's parameters allow it to win more often.


At the end of the day, this matchup is completely winable by either side. As long as that gets expressed in the final matchup ratio, I'm satisfied.

 

[PK-ow!]

It would seem, from everything I've just read here, that Pikachu should be fought by starting Zelda and switching to Sheik to finish.


Sheik, if switched in late, will have fresh moves, and there has to be a setup into Usmash or an aerial in there somewhere. Sheik is much better at knocking Pika around, which you have to do against a character that can jolt camp, QAC, and kill with strong, priority smashes.

Also, Vanish is better as a recovery against the mouse.


Zelda has all these tools to stop Pika's "foreplay" crap (dtilt blocks jolts? ), trading hits and keeping pressure in that paradoxically defensive way she does... but when it comes down to it, she needs Sheik to put the knife in the pest. =/

The question from me is whether to switch to Zelda after you kill Pika stock 1 with however much damage you have. I guess so... plus that would refresh your moves again.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'm pretty sure Zelda's always the better bet against pikachu. At least, I've always felt that way.

Just not a good matchup for sheik.

 

[choknater]

dont use sheik in this matchup =\

i was going even with stealth raptor in friendlies sheik vs pika

and this was before i knew that the cg went to 80+

he wasn't grabbing me.

just dont use sheik in this matchup, not even for KO's, it's just kinda illogical. zelda has good enough priority to handle it

 

[zeldspazz]

Yeah, Pika has a 40:60 advantage against Sheik.

Zelda's is far closer to even, it could swing 55:45 either way imo.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It would seem, from everything I've just read here, that Pikachu should be fought by starting Zelda and switching to Sheik to finish.


Sheik, if switched in late, will have fresh moves, and there has to be a setup into Usmash or an aerial in there somewhere. Sheik is much better at knocking Pika around, which you have to do against a character that can jolt camp, QAC, and kill with strong, priority smashes.

Also, Vanish is better as a recovery against the mouse.


Zelda has all these tools to stop Pika's "foreplay" crap (dtilt blocks jolts? ), trading hits and keeping pressure in that paradoxically defensive way she does... but when it comes down to it, she needs Sheik to put the knife in the pest. =/

The question from me is whether to switch to Zelda after you kill Pika stock 1 with however much damage you have. I guess so... plus that would refresh your moves again.

Pikachu has a 0-90 CG on Sheik. You never want to switch to sheik especially later in stocks even if her kill moves are fresh Zelda will still kill earlier.

 

[KayLo!]

Uh. There're a few things that could stand to be corrected here. I will post my writeup in the next day or so (going out for the night soon, so.... yeaaaah), but just a few quick things I want to clarify:

• Going Sheik at any point is generally a bad idea. As people have point out, at low percentages, we can CG her to almost-death.... but even at higher percentages, Zelda will kill Pika much earlier/easier, and her defensive game vs. Pikachu is a buttload better than Sheik's.
  
  If you need to refresh your moves, I'm not sure how beneficial switching just for that reason would be.... you can't even transform jump out of harm's way, because Pika has thunder (including QAC > thunder if you're far away). It'd probably be a better idea to just deal with it and try to start saving your KO moves of choice at mid-high stock.
  
  I'm not saying Sheik is completely useless vs. Pika.... if you're a lot better with Sheik than Zelda, in that case it might benefit you to switch once you're out of CG range. But speaking completely MU-wise, stay Zelda.
  
  
• @PK-ow!: Strong, priority smashes? Eh. Pika doesn't really have a super hard time killing Sheik, but killing Zelda can be really difficult if you know what to look out for. He probably won't even be killing you with his smashes, because Pikachu's lack of range makes it hard to land a smash KO on Zelda.
  
  As far as Pika's smashes go:
  Dsmash is easy to SDI out of, so it should never kill you unless you spotdodge and get hit with the very last hitbox. The best Pika can expect is for it to pop you up and leave you in hitstun long enough to get off a thunder before you can Naryu's. Otherwise, we mostly use dsmash as a GTFO move and/or to set up for techchasing. It's also good for punishing people who like to airdodge onto the stage.
  
  Fsmash is strong, but the sweetspot is right next to Pika's face.... at mid-end range, it won't kill you, although the tip will send you straight up, which can lead to a thunder kill. But, yeah, it's pretty much a short-range move in terms of killing, lol. EDIT: Fsmash is a good killing punisher for bad FW landings, though, I will say that.
  
  Usmash is weaker than it was in Melee, but it's still a solid kill move as far as strength. However, it's wtfeasy to see coming and not that fast, so you really shouldn't be dying from it unless you get punished for a laggy mistake. It's also pretty easy to DI, and Zelda has plenty of moves that outrange it.
  
  So, yeah. I'd be more scared of Pika's nair OOS, thunder setups, and general edgeguarding ability than any of his smashes. I'll expand on that a bit more in my writeup.
  
  
• @HSS/Mocha: Our MU discussion on Zelda -- and most characters, really -- is ******** old. I wouldn't really take most of it to heart, lol.
  
  
• @sniperworm: Yes, backwards crawl is legit. So is dtaunt. =D (Pikaaaaa~!!)
  
  
• This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but vs. Pikachu, do not let him get the lead if at all possible. If you can get a percentage/stock advantage and thereby force him to approach, the MU swings much more in Zelda's favor..... but the moment you give him the lead and the freedom to camp/run away/plank, you just lost the game, rofl.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

off topic, but can't pikas dtaunt dodge lasers?

 

[KayLo!]

Yeah... it dodges a lot of stuff. Basically whatever ducking can dodge + more.

I made this thread a while ago on moves Pika can duck underneath, lol: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231441

It's sort of incomplete, but it's funny seeing some of the things he can dodge just by crouching.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

off topic, but can't pikas dtaunt dodge lasers?

it's also adorable.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I will post my writeup in the next day or so (going out for the night soon, so.... yeaaaah)

Riiight...

I guess we're never gonna see it.