KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Perfect shielding tjolt isn't that hard..... it's a pretty slow projectile.
Most good people I play can do it consistently by now, lol.
Most good people I play can do it consistently by now, lol.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Pikachu
- Thread starter Kataefi
- Start date
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
RRRGH GOES THE ZOMBIE THREAD!
Anyways, I've been playing a good bit of Zelda vs. Pika lately, and I'm back with.... a few more random tips:
1: Pika's jab can be annoying for Zelda. He has an invisible head on his head, and it has enough range/disjoint to easily beat or trade with dtilt if you aren't supremely careful with your spacing. And it trips. And it comes out on frame 2.
Not nearly matchup-breaking, but it was kind of a wtf moment when I played someone who actually uses Pika's jab.
Fsmash, dsmash, or dash attack it, btw. Dsmash is kind of in the same boat as dtilt (it's all because Zelda sticks her god**** foot out), but if you trade, it's a lot more in your favor.
His dtilt can also catch Zelda's toe if you whiff your dtilt.... basically he hits her as she retracts her foot. Note that his tail is partially disjointed (Iron Tail!!!
), and at that distance, fsmash won't reach him.
tl;dr: Zelda's ground game doesn't beat Pika's as much as I thought. Maybe y'all already knew that, but nobody said anything, so I'm sharing! Be cautious, space well!
2: Zelda's OOS game is pretty *** vs. Pikachu. Seriously.
Once a Pika knows how to maneuver around Zelda, punishing him OOS can be nearly impossible because of his small size and speed. He also has nair, which comes out on frame 3.... it's considerably faster than a lot of what Zelda can do out of her shield. And his bair is frame 4, iirc.
The only times you can punish Pikachu effectively OOS are if he lags right in front of you with fair/nair/bair/usmash (all of which are easy for him not to do). EDIT: There are obviously other times, but I'm referring to things you'll most commonly see. Crossover fairs are really annoying, so I suggest you brush up on your shield drop > turnaround > dsmash/dtilt skills.... or just dash attack if you prefer that. Anything else will be too slow, and all of her aerials hit too high to reach him (so does usmash most of the time*). Nair works 1/10 times when he's stupid and jumps into it.
*Another thing about usmash is that if you use it to punish, he can SDI out the bottom.
In general:
- if you try to dash- or shieldgrab, you'll get naired
- if you try to aerial, you'll miss and get juggled
- if you try to fsmash/ftilt/jab, it'll be too slow
- if you usmash, you'll either miss, or he'll SDI out the bottom + punish
- dsmash usually won't reach if he has good spacing
- dtilt works most of the time
- dash attack is also okay-ish, but if you miss somehow.... free hit for him
- lolnaryu's can be a random surprise punish, but.... no
- FW OOS
tl;dr: Zelda sucks at punishing a well-spacing Pikachu OOS, and he has a ****ton of baiting tools to make you think you can punish him when you can't..... and if you fall for it, you'll get wrecked. Know when to go for it and when to say "**** it" and back off.
My bad for bumping this..... I know nobody gives two ****s about this matchup, but in case anybody runs into one of the few pro Pikas out there, just thought I'd help.
Also, I wrote this over the span of a few hours while watching TV and playing wifi..... if something sounds crazy, I probably didn't finish the thought or something when I came back to it, lol.
EDIT #2:
Also: walking is too pro in this matchup.... dunno if I mentioned that before. Pika has balls range, so if you walk + **** up his spacing, he'll end up lagging right next to you..... he doesn't have much of a choice since he has to get in Zelda's face to hit her.
Stutter stepping backwards and retreating Din's (meh @the latter, though) can also work for the same reason.
Anyways, I've been playing a good bit of Zelda vs. Pika lately, and I'm back with.... a few more random tips:
1: Pika's jab can be annoying for Zelda. He has an invisible head on his head, and it has enough range/disjoint to easily beat or trade with dtilt if you aren't supremely careful with your spacing. And it trips. And it comes out on frame 2.
Not nearly matchup-breaking, but it was kind of a wtf moment when I played someone who actually uses Pika's jab.
Fsmash, dsmash, or dash attack it, btw. Dsmash is kind of in the same boat as dtilt (it's all because Zelda sticks her god**** foot out), but if you trade, it's a lot more in your favor.
His dtilt can also catch Zelda's toe if you whiff your dtilt.... basically he hits her as she retracts her foot. Note that his tail is partially disjointed (Iron Tail!!!
), and at that distance, fsmash won't reach him.tl;dr: Zelda's ground game doesn't beat Pika's as much as I thought. Maybe y'all already knew that, but nobody said anything, so I'm sharing!
Be cautious, space well!2: Zelda's OOS game is pretty *** vs. Pikachu. Seriously.
Once a Pika knows how to maneuver around Zelda, punishing him OOS can be nearly impossible because of his small size and speed. He also has nair, which comes out on frame 3.... it's considerably faster than a lot of what Zelda can do out of her shield. And his bair is frame 4, iirc.
The only times you can punish Pikachu effectively OOS are if he lags right in front of you with fair/nair/bair/usmash (all of which are easy for him not to do). EDIT: There are obviously other times, but I'm referring to things you'll most commonly see. Crossover fairs are really annoying, so I suggest you brush up on your shield drop > turnaround > dsmash/dtilt skills.... or just dash attack if you prefer that. Anything else will be too slow, and all of her aerials hit too high to reach him (so does usmash most of the time*). Nair works 1/10 times when he's stupid and jumps into it.
*Another thing about usmash is that if you use it to punish, he can SDI out the bottom.
In general:
- if you try to dash- or shieldgrab, you'll get naired
- if you try to aerial, you'll miss and get juggled
- if you try to fsmash/ftilt/jab, it'll be too slow
- if you usmash, you'll either miss, or he'll SDI out the bottom + punish
- dsmash usually won't reach if he has good spacing
- dtilt works most of the time
- dash attack is also okay-ish, but if you miss somehow.... free hit for him
- lolnaryu's can be a random surprise punish, but.... no
- FW OOS
tl;dr: Zelda sucks at punishing a well-spacing Pikachu OOS, and he has a ****ton of baiting tools to make you think you can punish him when you can't..... and if you fall for it, you'll get wrecked. Know when to go for it and when to say "**** it" and back off.
My bad for bumping this..... I know nobody gives two ****s about this matchup, but in case anybody runs into one of the few pro Pikas out there, just thought I'd help.
Also, I wrote this over the span of a few hours while watching TV and playing wifi..... if something sounds crazy, I probably didn't finish the thought or something when I came back to it, lol.
EDIT #2:
Also: walking is too pro in this matchup.... dunno if I mentioned that before. Pika has balls range, so if you walk + **** up his spacing, he'll end up lagging right next to you..... he doesn't have much of a choice since he has to get in Zelda's face to hit her.
Stutter stepping backwards and retreating Din's (meh @the latter, though) can also work for the same reason.
Half-Split Soul
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2008
- Messages
- 1,686
You know, I'm still waiting for you to post that long essay you semi-promised about four months backwards.
No but seriously speaking, good stuff! BTW, what are your thoughts about Zelda's hyphen smash in this MU? I've personally had much better success with it compared to the regular Usmash because:
No but seriously speaking, good stuff! BTW, what are your thoughts about Zelda's hyphen smash in this MU? I've personally had much better success with it compared to the regular Usmash because:
- It can sometimes hit Pikachu even if he'd be too short for regular Usmash to hit
- It can be used to intercept the beginning of his shorthop/fulljump (unless if he predicts it and Fairs/Bairs)
- It's much harder to SDI out of than normal Usmash because of the forward momentum Zelda has
- It's not quite as punishable as normal Usmash when Pikachu does get out of it
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
I have mixed results with usmash in general..... sometimes I think it's good vs. Pika, other times I swear he has some kind of magical voodoo usmash invincibility.
For one, if he does a rising fair, I dunno howwhatwhy this happens (because I'm pretty **** sure Zelda's usmash is faster), but his fair will win. I guess it hits Zelda's torso without getting caught in the hitbox? Whatever the reason, you're right: fair, bair, and even nair/dair if you slide into him too soon will outspeed/beat Zelda's hyphen smash, so you can't be too predictable with it.
As for Pika getting out of it..... personally, I've had bad luck with Pikas SDI'ing out of my hyphen smashes. Even when I slide pretty far into them, they can manage to drop out and either dtilt or grab me. Also, if they're crouching* when you start usmash, it can be a crapshoot whether they get caught in it or not.
*Crouching doesn't necessarily mean a regular crouch or crawl. Pika's hurtbox vertically condenses during a lot of his moves, such as dtilt, jab, and his landing lag from fair/bair/dair.
It's never a problem against newer/less experienced Pikas, but really skilled ones have a pretty easy time avoiding usmash overall -- and it's one of the main moves they'll try to bait, because they know how laggy it is at the end.
I try to reserve usmash (hyphen or otherwise) for when Pika doesn't have his second jump. Pikas like to hop around a lot and bait with their first jump, then DJ > fastfall with an aerial or land into a grab once you make your move. If you don't take the bait, they can easily put themselves in the **** because they've used their second jump.... and usmash beats all of his aerials from underneath. (He can always QA away, but that stretches his hurtbox to monstrous proportions**, so you can usually still punish a QAC landing on prediction.)
- Usmash is also good for Pikas who like to aerial approach in a very straightforward manner.... but that really only happens vs. Pikas who lack any sort of mindgames.
- It beats QAC, hands down.
- Good for punishing laggy nair landings because he bounces up during the landing animation instead of squashing down (like he does with fair, bair, and dair).
- Ledgehoppers/normal getuppers/rollers on the ledge. Be wary of Pikas who get up with rising fairs, though..... that move is voodoo vs. usmash. And rising nairs.
**Picture taken as soon as the hitbox connected..... he was going for the ledge from underneath, too, not even trying to hit Luigi. -_- Got stage spiked and died.
For one, if he does a rising fair, I dunno howwhatwhy this happens (because I'm pretty **** sure Zelda's usmash is faster), but his fair will win. I guess it hits Zelda's torso without getting caught in the hitbox? Whatever the reason, you're right: fair, bair, and even nair/dair if you slide into him too soon will outspeed/beat Zelda's hyphen smash, so you can't be too predictable with it.
As for Pika getting out of it..... personally, I've had bad luck with Pikas SDI'ing out of my hyphen smashes. Even when I slide pretty far into them, they can manage to drop out and either dtilt or grab me. Also, if they're crouching* when you start usmash, it can be a crapshoot whether they get caught in it or not.
*Crouching doesn't necessarily mean a regular crouch or crawl. Pika's hurtbox vertically condenses during a lot of his moves, such as dtilt, jab, and his landing lag from fair/bair/dair.
It's never a problem against newer/less experienced Pikas, but really skilled ones have a pretty easy time avoiding usmash overall -- and it's one of the main moves they'll try to bait, because they know how laggy it is at the end.
I try to reserve usmash (hyphen or otherwise) for when Pika doesn't have his second jump. Pikas like to hop around a lot and bait with their first jump, then DJ > fastfall with an aerial or land into a grab once you make your move. If you don't take the bait, they can easily put themselves in the **** because they've used their second jump.... and usmash beats all of his aerials from underneath. (He can always QA away, but that stretches his hurtbox to monstrous proportions**, so you can usually still punish a QAC landing on prediction.)
- Usmash is also good for Pikas who like to aerial approach in a very straightforward manner.... but that really only happens vs. Pikas who lack any sort of mindgames.
- It beats QAC, hands down.
- Good for punishing laggy nair landings because he bounces up during the landing animation instead of squashing down (like he does with fair, bair, and dair).
- Ledgehoppers/normal getuppers/rollers on the ledge. Be wary of Pikas who get up with rising fairs, though..... that move is voodoo vs. usmash. And rising nairs.
**Picture taken as soon as the hitbox connected..... he was going for the ledge from underneath, too, not even trying to hit Luigi. -_- Got stage spiked and died.
Bandit
Smash Lord
I only ever had one match vs Pikachu in tournament. QAC all over the place plus lightning projectile constantly. But, I found Pika having the worst time trying to kill Zelda. At the time, the player was much better than me, but I still beat him in the set because he couldn't get in. I just patiently waited for him to screw up or try to predict the QAC.
KayLo! how would Pika kill a Zelda? How does he get in to land a kill? I honestly don't know Pika at all and I don't know his moveset (what kills, what racks, etc).
Please enlighten me
(PS, I have read the first page, but from your experience I am asking those questions)
KayLo! how would Pika kill a Zelda? How does he get in to land a kill? I honestly don't know Pika at all and I don't know his moveset (what kills, what racks, etc).
Please enlighten me
(PS, I have read the first page, but from your experience I am asking those questions)
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
The short answer is..... he can't, lol.
When I'm playing the matchup as Zelda, I usually end up behind damage-wise on the first stock, then gain the lead because of how easy it is to punish Pika when he's actively going for the kill. However, you must avoid stupid mistakes, because although his KO moves/setups are almost all short-ranged, Zelda is laggy and left open a lot if you're not careful.
Pika's KO moves are (in semi-order of effectiveness):
- Nair: Best used OOS or from underneath in this MU, but can occasionally be used as a surprise approach since it comes out very fast (frame 3). It's really short-ranged, though, like most of Pika's attacks..... it's only a major threat if you lag right up on his shield. It's also not really that strong (kills ~130-140% near the edge), but since it's so quick, it can be hard to DI properly. Know to expect it at death percentages if you're next to him when he's shielding.
- Thunder: Zelda has Naryu's/good aerial speed for regular everyday thunders, but KO-wise, Pikachu's going to be setting them up with utilt or usmash -- the hitstun'll prevent you from reflecting on time. Both setups are short-ranged, though, and if you DI them sideways, thunder is no longer guaranteed. He can always wait + bait the Naryu's/airdodge and thunder during your cooldown (or QAC > thunder to follow your DI), but it's a gamble.
- Usmash: This move makes me sad now..... it's so nerfed from Melee. Fresh + sweetspotted, it'll probably kill Zelda around.... 125%+ish? But it's easy to DI, so that number really depends on how high the stage's ceiling is. Comes out on frame 9, so it's not fast at all compared to the rest of his moveset; mainly, it's used for mid-range punishment when you whiff a usmash/dsmash/NL/etc. or fail with FW. Or tech badly. Very punishable if he misses or usmashes your shield.
- Fsmash: Another move mainly used for punishment (mostly landing lag, bad FWs, and predicted rolls/spotdodges). Comes out on frame 15, and it's long-ranged, but the sweetspot is the only part that'll kill you early.... and it's right by his nose, so you can treat it as a short-ranged move for KO purposes. -_- The very tip sends you straight up, which can set up for thunder. Nobody intentionally goes for that, though.
- Dair: A little weaker than nair, which means you shouldn't really die from it unless you're off-stage. DI it upwards, because the main hitbox sends you fairly horizontally. You probably won't see it too much, but if Pika's aggressively edgeguarding you, he might try to interrupt FW's startup with a dair. Pikas with balls might also try to stage spike with it if you're hanging out under the ledge.
- Ftilt/Utilt: This Pikachu is probably desperate by now..... or just insanely patient. Ftilt and utilt both kill, but not until you're in the late 100's. Up-angled ftilt in particular is something to watch out for, because it's underused (and therefore unexpected) and has a surprising amount of knockback.
- Dsmash: Lol. Unless you suck at DI (or are on wifi), this'll only kill you if he catches you out of a spotdodge. The last hit has all the knockback and sends you straight up, which'll either kill you or set you up for an easy thunder.
- Thunder: Zelda has Naryu's/good aerial speed for regular everyday thunders, but KO-wise, Pikachu's going to be setting them up with utilt or usmash -- the hitstun'll prevent you from reflecting on time. Both setups are short-ranged, though, and if you DI them sideways, thunder is no longer guaranteed. He can always wait + bait the Naryu's/airdodge and thunder during your cooldown (or QAC > thunder to follow your DI), but it's a gamble.
- Usmash: This move makes me sad now..... it's so nerfed from Melee.
Fresh + sweetspotted, it'll probably kill Zelda around.... 125%+ish? But it's easy to DI, so that number really depends on how high the stage's ceiling is. Comes out on frame 9, so it's not fast at all compared to the rest of his moveset; mainly, it's used for mid-range punishment when you whiff a usmash/dsmash/NL/etc. or fail with FW. Or tech badly. Very punishable if he misses or usmashes your shield.- Fsmash: Another move mainly used for punishment (mostly landing lag, bad FWs, and predicted rolls/spotdodges). Comes out on frame 15, and it's long-ranged, but the sweetspot is the only part that'll kill you early.... and it's right by his nose, so you can treat it as a short-ranged move for KO purposes. -_- The very tip sends you straight up, which can set up for thunder. Nobody intentionally goes for that, though.
- Dair: A little weaker than nair, which means you shouldn't really die from it unless you're off-stage. DI it upwards, because the main hitbox sends you fairly horizontally. You probably won't see it too much, but if Pika's aggressively edgeguarding you, he might try to interrupt FW's startup with a dair. Pikas with balls might also try to stage spike with it if you're hanging out under the ledge.
- Ftilt/Utilt: This Pikachu is probably desperate by now..... or just insanely patient. Ftilt and utilt both kill, but not until you're in the late 100's. Up-angled ftilt in particular is something to watch out for, because it's underused (and therefore unexpected) and has a surprising amount of knockback.
- Dsmash: Lol. Unless you suck at DI (or are on wifi), this'll only kill you if he catches you out of a spotdodge. The last hit has all the knockback and sends you straight up, which'll either kill you or set you up for an easy thunder.
There's also gimping, but when it comes to off-stage, it's more likely that he'll:
- abuse FW's startup and use it to rack up damage/outright kill you, or
- wait for you to recover, then punish any attempts to get your feet safely back onto the stage.
Tjolt, dair, bair, and weak nair hits can all put you in a bad spot you can't recover from, though.
I was gonna write up a paragraph or two on the psychology of fighting a Pikachu, but I think that'd be going a little overboard. ;; What a useless matchup to know so much about, lol!
Bandit
Smash Lord
This is such an awesome post. Thanks KayLo!
I know the ROB match-up incredibly well, and it is because my training partner is a ROB. The odd thing is I can't make my ROB anywhere near tourney viable despite knowing so much about him. He never clicked for me as a character.
I play some Jiggs in Brawl+, and I suck at rest combos. Therefore, I am constantly just pecking people until I can sneak a sweet fair in for the kill near an edge. I felt like Pika might play the same way here. Just keep causing damage, staying safe, and don't worry about the kill unless Zelda has taken one of your stocks.
I know the ROB match-up incredibly well, and it is because my training partner is a ROB. The odd thing is I can't make my ROB anywhere near tourney viable despite knowing so much about him. He never clicked for me as a character.
I play some Jiggs in Brawl+, and I suck at rest combos. Therefore, I am constantly just pecking people until I can sneak a sweet fair in for the kill near an edge. I felt like Pika might play the same way here. Just keep causing damage, staying safe, and don't worry about the kill unless Zelda has taken one of your stocks.