Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Pikachu

[KayLo!]

She also brought up that if you nayru's pikachu can DJ fair. Which isn't possible especially factoring the cool down from tjolt.

Go into Training Mode.
Pick Pikachu.
Full hop and input tjolt at the same time.
Spam the jump button.

You will double jump well before you hit the ground. I DO IT ALL THE TIME.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Go into Training Mode.
Pick Pikachu.
Full hop and input tjolt at the same time.
Spam the jump button.

You will double jump well before you hit the ground. I DO IT ALL THE TIME.

he will still get by the tjolt.

 

[KayLo!]

Not if he's at mid-range. If he's at mid-range, by the time the tjolt gets to Zelda and reflects back to where Pikachu is, he'll be in the air where the tjolt won't hit him.

Naryu's lasts a LONG TIME. Not just cooldown, but the hitbox itself is long, and if Pikachu falls on top of you with fair while you're using NL, you will get hit. It won't trade.

I'm not biased, I'm telling you straight facts.

Zelda has an easier time killing.
Zelda has more range.
Zelda has better defense.

But Zelda gets outcamped. Just accept it.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Not if he's at mid-range. If he's at mid-range, by the time the tjolt gets to Zelda and reflects back to where Pikachu is, he'll be in the air where the tjolt won't hit him.

Naryu's lasts a LONG TIME. Not just cooldown, but the hitbox itself is long, and if Pikachu falls on top of you with fair while you're using NL, you will get hit. It won't trade.

I'm not biased, I'm telling you straight facts.

Zelda has an easier time killing.
Zelda has more range.
Zelda has better defense.

But Zelda gets outcamped. Just accept it.

I guess I need to play better pikas *looks at kaylo* holla.

 

[KayLo!]

I guess I need to play better pikas *looks at kaylo* holla.

Apparently you do. See you at biweeklies.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Apparently you do. See you at biweeklies.

LoL should be fun.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

That's the biggest amount of bull ever. 60-40 Zelda at the least 55-45. Pika has trouble approaching trouble camping no QAC tricks. Dtillt trips. Yeah I'm starting to see how this match up can be in pikas favor. oH wait no I don't.

Well as an 3rd party who also uses both characters quite well, i do believe if Zelda times a fullhop/DJ u-air or light kick, it'll probably hit/overcome pika's jolt and hit pika at the same time (or at least hit first). That's if you are having trouble with the "mid range" t-jolt. I personally wouldn't rely on nayru's repetitively even if it could relfect t-jolt and hit pikachu cuz pikachu's t-jolt can autocancel and pikachu can space while doing it--i'd just straight up mindgame-lightkick the rat before he reaches full hop height or so if he's spammin'.

On another note, as a pikachu who EXTREMELY SPECIALIZES in t-jolt 'sniping' (as opposed to unskilled 'spamming'), I can say that Zelda cannot outcamp pikachu at all if the pikachu realizes that almost ALL of his aerials CANCEL the blast of Din's Fire. That means for EVERY din's fire, pika can straight up run in, n-air and plow through while t-jolting or doing anything else for that matter (pika d-air if Zelda is good at delaying Din's to plow through).

I do believe that the matchup is pretty even if BOTH know the matchup and are skilled enough. The learning curve to defeat a skilled pikachu (i do believe) is a bit higher than the learning curve to defeat a skilled Zelda--but once the matchup is known pretty even.

I would just venture to say that Zelda is quite weaker in landing back on the stage against pikachu. U-air is pretty fast compared to Zelda's d-air and the hitbox of lightkicks aren't low enough to cover an u-airing pikachu. Fyore's is actually helpful if you have enough space and are good at maneuvering with it. Ground game tho, depends.

I'd say that Zelda has far more frightening OoS options (most killing or multihit) whereas pikachu capitalizes on dashing in working in some hurt and relocating if things get out of hand.

As for t-jolt spam, at "little bit farther than mid-range" pikachu's t-jolt will hit the ground and unwind to an arc before hitting zelda (which is slightly slower but still barely faster than point blank din's). If the pikachu starts doing this as a spam, then reflecting it would only reflect the ground version while pikachu can still come in aerially.

That's about as far as basic approaches go. I'll be happy to fill in anything else ^_^.

Hope that helps.

 

[zeldspazz]

Well, I just fought Nya (used to be K. Bunny right?) and guess who she used.....Pika :D And um, Im sorry Legend, but Kaylo is right......camping at midrange sucks lol. Ill agree with the 45-55 Pika adv. but no lower

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

Well, I just fought Nya (used to be K. Bunny right?) and guess who she used.....Pika :D And um, Im sorry Legend, but Kaylo is right......camping at midrange sucks lol. Ill agree with the 45-55 Pika adv. but no lower

Well... i guess that's also okay then. It is a MU discussion. I am basically going from personal experience, and I do agree that Zelda CANNOT outcamp pikachu ^_^. Then again... I do main pikachu... :D.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Well as an 3rd party who also uses both characters quite well, i do believe if Zelda times a fullhop/DJ u-air or light kick, it'll probably hit/overcome pika's jolt and hit pika at the same time (or at least hit first). That's if you are having trouble with the "mid range" t-jolt. I personally wouldn't rely on nayru's repetitively even if it could relfect t-jolt and hit pikachu cuz pikachu's t-jolt can autocancel and pikachu can space while doing it--i'd just straight up mindgame-lightkick the rat before he reaches full hop height or so if he's spammin'.

On another note, as a pikachu who EXTREMELY SPECIALIZES in t-jolt 'sniping' (as opposed to unskilled 'spamming'), I can say that Zelda cannot outcamp pikachu at all if the pikachu realizes that almost ALL of his aerials CANCEL the blast of Din's Fire. That means for EVERY din's fire, pika can straight up run in, n-air and plow through while t-jolting or doing anything else for that matter (pika d-air if Zelda is good at delaying Din's to plow through).

I do believe that the matchup is pretty even if BOTH know the matchup and are skilled enough. The learning curve to defeat a skilled pikachu (i do believe) is a bit higher than the learning curve to defeat a skilled Zelda--but once the matchup is known pretty even.

I would just venture to say that Zelda is quite weaker in landing back on the stage against pikachu. U-air is pretty fast compared to Zelda's d-air and the hitbox of lightkicks aren't low enough to cover an u-airing pikachu. Fyore's is actually helpful if you have enough space and are good at maneuvering with it. Ground game tho, depends.

I'd say that Zelda has far more frightening OoS options (most killing or multihit) whereas pikachu capitalizes on dashing in working in some hurt and relocating if things get out of hand.

As for t-jolt spam, at "little bit farther than mid-range" pikachu's t-jolt will hit the ground and unwind to an arc before hitting zelda (which is slightly slower but still barely faster than point blank din's). If the pikachu starts doing this as a spam, then reflecting it would only reflect the ground version while pikachu can still come in aerially.

That's about as far as basic approaches go. I'll be happy to fill in anything else ^_^.

Hope that helps.

I guess I just have to see it because my experience with the match up leads me to feel differently about the match up. Also I think a lot of things beat out Zelda's dair it's not the fastest aerial and I also believe that uair is pikachu's fastest aerial. Zelda has trouble getting back ot the stage no matter what characters she's up against, Pika should also be able to punish the FW.

 

[KayLo!]

Well... i guess that's also okay then. It is a MU discussion. I am basically going from personal experience, and I do agree that Zelda CANNOT outcamp pikachu ^_^. Then again... I do main pikachu... :D.

I think zeldspazz meant AlmostLegendary, not you, LDPK, teehee.

 

[zeldspazz]

Oh, wow, 2 legendaries (-.-) lol ok then.....

I was talking to AlmostLegendary lol :D

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

oh... lol... small world. ^_^

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

the idea of countercamping Tjolt with din's is to cancel out Tjolt AND hit Pikachu at the same time.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

the idea of countercamping Tjolt with din's is to cancel out Tjolt AND hit Pikachu at the same time.

We're mainly talking about mid-range at this point (sort of point blank din' fire to cancel out T-jolt at that point but cannot land against pika at the same time).

Yes what you said is correct, Din's blast can hit both at roughly the same time, but that's only if you have time to guide Din's Fire (not at point blank) and from a farther distance. If the pika's start to spam (unintelligently) then your din's fire will own at long range.

However, all pikachu needs to do is close the distance and use his aerials to cancel any Din's fire attempts then proceed to T-jolting again. I can consistently n-air a din's fire > t-jolt and it'll reach Zelda most of the time before another Din's fire can even start.

The main thing is that pikachu can do t-jolts in the air and space while firing it (and i do believe it travels faster [initial frames-wise] than Din's). So that means, Din's blast will mostly hit pika AFTER the jolt has been thrown already (and pika's too far from his jolt to get hit by din's blast [if you're trying to cancel the jolt also]) or reach pika BEFORE he throws out a jolt (in that case the pikachu will just aerial the Din's Fire and t-jolt which WILL REACH before you can pull another din's fire.

Pikachu just has MORE counter-camping (counter Din's) options which allow him to definitely outcamp or have the camping advantage against Zelda.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

at that close range, it's not hard for zelda to running usmash pika if he doesn't have a thunderjolt in front of him.

Basically all it comes to is knowing that pika is going to try to camp you and pull out a little prediction with Din's. If you pull it out with the expectation that Thunderjolt is going to come out, and it does, then pika loses because din's eats his jolt and hits him. If he DOESN'T jolt, and, instead, does an aerial or an air dodge, chances are that he's too far to punish you for din's, so it's normally worth the risk. and if he starts to feel that you are going to use din's a bit preemptively like that, and instead you running usmash, or dash attack, or running sheildgrab or . . . well you get the point, Zelda will win the transaction then.

Pikachu can beat zelda at straight camping at that range, especially if zelda only sends out din's once she already sees thunderjolt being used, but if she actually, you know, plays with a little more depth than the peice of cardboard she's portrayed as, she can take away pikachu's camping dominance. It's not like it suddenly gives zelda a camping advantage, but it makes it so that camping at mid-rande as pika CAN end badly for pika. If you get the win in the end of enough instances with Zelda, you might just put the fear into pika and make him think twice about doing it so much.


Pika is one of the matches where I actually feel that, if anything, Zelda has the upper hand.

 

[KayLo!]

(and i do believe it travels faster [initial frames-wise] than Din's).

It does. Din's doesn't really start to pick up enough speed to outrun tjolt until long range. Well. Longer than the range we're talking about anyway.

LDPK basically said everything I was going to point out. The fact of the matter is, mid-range, Pikachu > Zelda as far as camping. Din's isn't going to cut it, and only an extremely slow Pika is going to fail at counter-camping it at the distance we're talking about.

Zelda's only options are to perfect shield & close in, space the most perfect LK you've ever seen in your life (which Pika can avoid anyway if he retreats the jolt), or try to run away and Din's camp from far away (which would be stupid since Pikachu is faster, lol).

Tjolt isn't too fast, so perfect shielding it isn't impossible. A smart Pika will mix up the timing, but I've had people consistently perfect shield jolts on reaction..... you just have to be patient and not go crazy throwing out fsmashes or Naryu's or hyphen usmashes in an attempt to rush in or bait something.

Dtilt cancels jolts, too, but shielding is generally better.

If your shield is low, keep in mind that tjolt can hit Zelda's feet if it's at the low point of its "bounce" when it gets to her.

EDIT: ****, ninja'd. @Sonic: No. Just.... no. Din's is too slow at the range we're talking about for the mindgames you're proposing.

EDIT #2: Also, mindgames and "prediction" don't go into a matchup discussion anyways. =3

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It does. Din's doesn't really start to pick up enough speed to outrun tjolt until long range. Well. Longer than the range we're talking about anyway.

LDPK basically said everything I was going to point out. The fact of the matter is, mid-range, Pikachu > Zelda as far as camping. Din's isn't going to cut it, and only an extremely slow Pika is going to fail at counter-camping it at the distance we're talking about.

Zelda's only options are to perfect shield & close in, space the most perfect LK you've ever seen in your life (which Pika can avoid anyway if he retreats the jolt), or try to run away and Din's camp from far away (which would be stupid since Pikachu is faster, lol).

Tjolt isn't too fast, so perfect shielding it isn't impossible. A smart Pika will mix up the timing, but I've had people consistently perfect shield jolts on reaction..... you just have to be patient and not go crazy throwing out fsmashes or Naryu's or hyphen usmashes in an attempt to rush in or bait something.

Dtilt cancels jolts, too, but shielding is generally better.

If your shield is low, keep in mind that tjolt can hit Zelda's feet if it's at the low point of its "bounce" when it gets to her.

EDIT: ****, ninja'd. @Sonic: No. Just.... no. Din's is too slow at the range we're talking about for the mindgames you're proposing.

EDIT #2: Also, mindgames and "prediction" don't go into a matchup discussion anyways. =3

But baiting belongs ?

 

[KayLo!]

But baiting belongs ?

I never said anything about using baiting as a strategy in regards to the MU discussion, lol.

I said don't rush in (with careless usmashes) or try to bait anything (by throwing out random fsmashes)..... that's just a word of caution, not me using it to back my argument. For everything I've said in discussion of the matchup itself, I've used actual facts about both characters.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

@Sonic: No. Just.... no. Din's is too slow at the range we're talking about for the mindgames you're proposing.

no it's not. I've done it and it comes out faster than thunderjolt. Unless I'm misunderstanding the range and pika is actually farther away than that. . . but at any distance farther than the one I am talking about, thunderjolt wouldn't be threatening due to its slow speed and how easy it would be to just powersheild it without fear of retribution from pikachu.



edit: I looked at the distance you put on that diagram. . . yeah. you can definitely do it at that distance. activate dins at the same frame that pika activates Tjolt; see how far away you have to be to be out of it's range by the time you're done with cooldown.

 

[KayLo!]

At the 10 dot range on Kataefi's Din's chart.

Din's takes 31 frames to get to right in front of her face with pitiful range.
Tjolt comes out on frame 19 and initially travels faster than Din's.

I don't.... get how you guys can't wrap your minds around this. Even if you were to predict that Pikachu's gonna shoot a tjolt, Pika can easily run up, shield, then jump > tjolt OOS. Zelda's too slow to punish the shield with a grab at that distance.

But........ I really have no words left for this discussion. I've literally explained this every way I can, and LDPK has given some ridiculously good information as well. If you're really still trying to argue about this, I dunno what to tell you.

EDIT: AND OMG Pikachu has mobility while he's shooting the tjolt, so he can retreat while doing it. Din's is too slow. Din's is too. Freaking. Slow. !

I give up.

Like. Really this time. I feel like I'm in an alternate dimension where sensible arguments don't make sense.

LDPK, have fun.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

At the 10 dot range on Kataefi's Din's chart.

Din's takes 31 frames to get to right in front of her face with pitiful range.
Tjolt comes out on frame 19 and initially travels faster than Din's.

I don't.... get how you guys can't wrap your minds around this. Even if you were to predict that Pikachu's gonna shoot a tjolt, Pika can easily run up, shield, then jump > tjolt OOS. Zelda's too slow to punish the shield with a grab at that distance.

But........ I really have no words left for this discussion. I've literally explained this every way I can, and LDPK has given some ridiculously good information as well. If you're really still trying to argue about this, I dunno what to tell you.

EDIT: AND OMG Pikachu has mobility while he's shooting the tjolt, so he can retreat while doing it. Din's is too slow. Din's is too. Freaking. Slow. !

I give up.

Like. Really this time. I feel like I'm in an alternate dimension where sensible arguments don't make sense.

LDPK, have fun.

Thunderjolt vs din's is hardly a "WIN" victory. yeah, it outcamps, but not by a substantial margin. if Zelda is determined to countercamp with din's, it WILL hit once in a while as long as Zelda knows what she's doing with it.

There is no perfect range for it. Either you are too far away to punish din's countercamping or you are close enough that zelda can do something else. Thunderjolt does not shut down Zelda's options at all.

I never said it didn't still work as a camping tool, but it's not unharassable by any stretch of the imagination. If you are retreating while shooting it, you are not going to be doing anything to damage zelda . . . you'll just stalemate.

if you stay there, yes, thunderjold comes out before din's detonates, but it doesn't travel far enough not to be cancelled out and, as long as zelda didn't wait for you to fire before she uses din's, you are simply not out of Tjolt cooldown animation quick enough to do avoid being hit . . . unless, of course, you are at a large distance, in which case Tjolt was pretty useless anyway.

the only place you would be definitely unharassable by din's using Tjolt is if you are very close to zelda and, at that distance, Zelda has all sorts of things that aren't Din's at her disposal for dealing with you.


Seriously, Tjolt does not shut down Zelda at all. If you ae bound and determined to try to camp with it, you'll just get in a camp war that is **** near a stalemate. If you mix it into your game, zelda's not going to really be able to countercamp it with din's because there's no way she'll predict it, but we're not talking about mix ups. we're talking about your assertion that, at a certain range, if pikachu decides to start camping with thunderjolt, Zelda has to approach, run away or sheild/get hit by thunderjolt all day, and it's simply not true. It is not nearly as effective as that as a camping tool.

 

[KayLo!]

You're so right, Hedgedawg. You're just.... so right. Props to you, man, you have the whole thing figured out perfectly.

Anyway. Since this is going nowhere, I suggest you guys move on to a different area of the MU.

 

[Veggie123]

I like how the past 3 pages are about tjolt vs din's.

Personally I prefer using Nayru's at longer range since tjolt covers the ground well enough to make it hard to approach on the ground and punish Zelda's ending lag...though iirc Pikachu can send another one out and cancel it. With that said, it's really only a part of the matchup.

Realistically though, 45:55 Pikachu, could be more but that's a good number for now.

I feel that Pikachu can close the distance between them with ease if need be AND he can usually force an approach if played campy. Zelda really can't do either that well, so it's the Pikachu player that has the tools to control the pace of this matchup. And although it can be easily thought of as a Zelda advantage if the Pikachu doesn't know the matchup well, a player that knows how Zelda works can easily exploit her weaknesses. It's harder to say the same for a Zelda with the same amount of knowledge of Pikachu.

I'm just grateful they gave her decent aerial movement speed...characters that don't get screwed by thunder so badly.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

On another note... I think pikachu has a good grab-game/tjolt mindgame against Zelda at closer ranges. Zelda's u-smash is frightening. As a Pikachu, I'd try to keep my shield as full as possible when getting in close and intimate with Zelda O_O. U-air from zelda is also frightening cuz I know that LK follows soon afterwards. I guess my strategy is hit zelda first and take the multihits with full shield and punish afterwards (while dodging the potential d-smash/d-tilt that comes out fast).

I think offstagewise, that's where pikachu really shines in the Zelda matchup. Most of the time the pikachu either gimps or does massive residual damage when zelda is landing back on stage (QaC aids in this). I guess just getting her off the stage is the main equalizer. I guess full shield run-up mindgames should work against Zelda at various times since Zelda's grab isn't necessarily the fastest grab in the game.

As long as Zelda's keep up good shield pressure, pikachu's should have a nightmare against u-smash/f-smash/d-til/retreating n-air spam. Just make Zelda NEVER gets swept off her feet (and at least if swept, face away from pika so you can b-air guard as you land back on stage [NL if you are high enough... maybe from reflecting a thunder ^_^]).

I think this matchup describes some aspects decently well (besides the obvious kill moves). One thing i thought was funny... pikachu cannot be foward SH Light Kicked if he's crouching (from my testings)...lol.

*last note about the outcamping... sorry for it... this'll be the last thing I say about this... lol: I'd like to try my t-jolt sniping against any Zelda whenever I do meet them--while it may not be a MU related thing persay, I am confindent in what I say; I'm specialized in t-jolts ^_^*

Hope all this helps.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

...Zelda's grab isn't necessarily the fastest grab in the game...

understatement of the year much?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I never said anything about using baiting as a strategy in regards to the MU discussion, lol.

I said don't rush in (with careless usmashes) or try to bait anything (by throwing out random fsmashes)..... that's just a word of caution, not me using it to back my argument. For everything I've said in discussion of the matchup itself, I've used actual facts about both characters.

Not this match up specifically but in other ones people has used baiting as an argument for zelda to be at a disadvantage. Wasn't trying to come at your neck or anything but it sounds like it.

 

[zeldspazz]

Well, Im just happy we finally have some discussion in this thread *checks OP date*

Yeah, its about time O.o The Marth boards would be ashamed

 

[Half-Split Soul]

understatement of the year much?

First thing to cross my mind too.

That's just ******** and why a lot of the good Zelda players don't really post here anymore.

You're talking about me right?

Spoiler

(isreallycompletegabageandknowsitlol)

poor joke is poor



But seriously, what's up with this debate over which one outcamps the other, Din's or Tjolt? It's quite simple really: Tjolt is a better projectile. It's harder to avoid, better punisher, harder to punish and moves faster on the ground. Din's fire, on the other hand, has more strength. It can burn Tjolt and damage Pikachu at the same time if you can get it to reach the rat in time. In middle range fight this is only going to happen if you predict the move, in which case it doesn't really count into the outcamping discussion anymore. Therefor Tjolt outcamps Zelda.

I fail to see why this is such a big deal, though. First of all, Pikachu doesn't outcamp Zelda enough to make the matchup horrible like, say, Snake. Tjolt also isn't something like Fox's blaster: it doesn't force you to approach straight away. Zelda can deal with Tjolts, avoid most of the damage from them and wait for an opening if Pikachu only settles for spamming.

Second, Din isn't usually going to be the best option for punishing Tjolt anyway when you could (depending on the distance) powershield => punish, jump => punish, run under it => punish or avoid the move and wait for Pikachu's next action. It also isn't too hard to approach Tjolting Pika by simply walking and shielding his attacks.

Third, the real problem isn't the Tjolt. It's the followups Pika gets from it:

1. If you shield he can grab
2. If you Din he can avoid the move or move in and punish
3. If you Nayru he can punish with whatever he wants
4. If you jump over it he can get under you and start juggling
5. If you spotdodge or roll he can punish with aerial or grab
6. If you take the hit he can punish with aerial or grab

If Pika reads you right he can always punish you whatever you do, but if he reads wrong he leaves himself open for punishment. The difference is that he forces you to react to the Tjolt first and thus creates pressure on you.

To sum it up: Tjolt outcamps Zelda but isn't enough to ruin the matchup for her.

 

[KayLo!]

HSS has sense. That's really.... all I was trying to say.

Obviously, if I think the MU is 45:55ish (Pika favor), I'm not saying Pika's outcamping Zelda is a MU ruiner, which is what I think a lot of people were assuming..... but I was trying to explain that Pikachu does outcamp Zelda at a certain range, and that's what Legendary (not LDPK, lol)/Hedgedawg didn't want to accept.

Anyway.

The thing about tjolt camping is that although it's slow/easy enough to shield that you don't need to approach immediately, you'll still need to react eventually. Like I said, it'll hit Zelda in the feet sometimes if your shield is low, so you can't afford to sit there all day unless you can perfect shield consistently.

Now, you say "if [Pika] reads wrong he leaves himself open for punishment," but MOST of Zelda's options are easy to react to. Minus perfect shielding the jolt, pretty much all of them are slow enough that Pikachu can punish or avoid what's coming next on reaction (especially Naryu's, lol.... what an *** move).

It's not a huge gamble for him to camp because no matter how you react to tjolts short of perfect shielding and moving in to punish, Zelda is slow enough and far enough away (at the range we're talking about) that she's not really a threat with much.

Anyways, just so I look fair to everybody (and not "biased," lolol), a way to get around tjolt camping is to CP a stage with lots of platforms (Battlefield, Castle Siege [last transformation kinda sucks for this MU, though]). Or take Pika to Brinstar where the goo and pillars will seriously **** up his tjolt shenanigans. If it's legal, Luigi's Mansion is really good as long as you can avoid getting jab locked.

Basically, you want to minimize his ability to camp and run away from you while not gimping yourself, which is why I didn't include PS1 (looks good on paper with all the platforms, but Pikachu can potentially wreck on that stage). Imo, Pika can't manipulate platforms as well as Zelda can.

Learn to perfect shield consistently.

Keeping Pikachu in close quarters is the best thing you can do for yourself, because at close range on the ground (if you're in the air, wtf are you doing up there), he loses in range, power, and disjoint. It's easy to outspace a grounded Pikachu..... the hard part is keeping him close, because he will run away if he's smart, and Pika is faster and more mobile than Zelda.

Also, a quick note: Always remember that Pikachu has QAC. If he's used his second jump and you're ready to punish with usmash/uair like you would on any other character, always be aware that he can just QA past you. Zelda doesn't fall or run fast enough to punish that. This gets sort of into mindgame territory, so.... yeah. Just a word of caution.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

HSS has sense.

I think I might have to break my decision not to quote comments about me as my signature because of this.

On-topic: I agree with what you said in that post. The only thing I don't agree with is CP:ing Brinstar, but that's just because I hate that stage with every character in every MU so much I'd never go there if I wouldn't have to.

 

[KayLo!]

I think I might have to break my decision not to quote comments about me as my signature because of this.

I give credit where credit is due. =3

On-topic: I agree with what you said in that post. The only thing I don't agree with is CP:ing Brinstar, but that's just because I hate that stage with every character in every MU so much I'd never go there if I wouldn't have to.

Yeah, I hatehatehaaaate Brinstar too. I always ban it in tournament except vs. Diddy.

Personally, I think Battlefield is the best choice for evening out the MU as much as possible.... might even be slightly in Zelda's favor on that stage. But I pointed this out in the Mage's Stages thread: Pikachus are really, really varied. My playstyle with Pika doesn't do that great with a lot of platforms and/or cramped spaces (FD and Smashville ftw), but platformchus do exist.

Regardless, speaking completely objectively, I really do think Zelda does better in this MU on a stage like BF. Pika has a small shield, so if he's on a platform, nair harassment will wear him down quickly and bring him down to your level. Once he's there, the stage is small enough to keep him near you, and the platforms are low enough that he can't camp with full hop/double jump tjolts.

 

[zeldspazz]

I learned when facing Nya that FF fair -> utilt -> uair spam is not fun when you're Zelda

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

but I was trying to explain that Pikachu does outcamp Zelda at a certain range, and that's what Legendary (not LDPK, lol)/Hedgedawg didn't want to accept.

no . . . I'm pretty sure I even said in my post that, yes, pika does outcamp zelda at that range, but not substantially enough for it to be a huge deal . . . which is almost exactly what HSS said.

 

[Roxas215]

Yup, Hedge, you're right as always.... why are you so right about everything?! It just blows my mind how right you are all the time.

@zeldspazz: Just shield the fair. And SDI up/away if you get hit. If the Pika tries to connect with too many hits before hitting the ground, I THINK Zelda is floaty enough to SDI out and jump.

If not, just accept the combo, teehee. =3

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Yup, Hedge, you're right as always.... why are you so right about everything?! It just blows my mind how right you are all the time.

it's hard, but you get used to it

 

[Kataefi]

Lots of stuff here... so I guess it's looking around 60:40 + or - for pika... what does everyone think?

Can someone give me a general flavour like how pika generally combos, edgeguards, kills and any ways to try and avoid the signs of these, like a low-down of how he plays in general?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think the matchup is about even. I've always felt Zelda has the advantage, but 55:45 either way doesn't bother me.

definitely not 60:40 pika though.

 

[KayLo!]

45:55, Pikachu advantage.

(Actually more like 43:57, imo, but everybody likes pretty numbers.)

Pikachu has a fair number of combos, even vs. a lightweight like Zelda. Um. Once you're in them, you can't really avoid them.

He'll probably edgeguard with nair, bair, dair, tjolt, and thunder. Even if you're fairly low/far out, he can risk jumping out there because his recovery + wtflarge sweetspot range can get him back from pretty much anywhere (I've snapped to the ledge plenty of times when I thought I was a goner). Wavebounced thunders will prevent him from getting hit by reflected thunders, so keeping in mind that he probably won't get damaged if you reflect, you have a choice between Naryu's and airdodging.

He has trouble killing. Major kill moves are fsmash (close-range punisher, although his stutter step goes pretty far), usmash (dash-canceled, becomes a mid-range punisher), nair (usually OOS, SH'd as an approach, or used for edgeguarding), and thunder (utilt > thunder combos if he reads your DI right, and you'll be in hitstun too long to Naryu's).

Dair can kill if you're really damaged and/or really close to the edge. Up-angled ftilt can kill if you should have died a long time ago but are somehow still alive, but it's basically just a shorter-ranged, faster, non-disjointed fsmash, so I doubt you'll see much of it for killing.

I'd give you more details, but I'm sure Hedgedawg can fill in the things I missed. Since he knows everything.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

45:55, Pikachu advantage.

(Actually more like 43:57, imo, but everybody likes pretty numbers.)

Pikachu has a fair number of combos, even vs. a lightweight like Zelda. Um. Once you're in them, you can't really avoid them.

Pikachu is one of the few characters who actually comboes zelda. Less so than he comboes other characters, but he can still do it.

(I've snapped to the ledge plenty of times when I thought I was a goner).

must be nice.

fsmash (close-range punisher, although his stutter step goes pretty far)

"punisher" pretty much says it. Pikachu shouldn't really be trying to Fsmash unless you make a mistake that leaves an opening.

thunder (utilt > thunder combos if he reads your DI right, and you'll be in hitstun too long to Naryu's).

I think she can get an airdodge out in time, but I'm not sure. If she can, it's pretty tight timing and you have to move out of thunder's hitbox before you come out of the dodge.

I'd give you more details, but I'm sure Hedgedawg can fill in the things I missed. Since he knows everything.

watch out for side taunt: it's broken.