Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Pikachu

[KayLo!]

Already wrote this in the social thread a while ago, but:

Btw Kaylo, when is your Pikachu vs. Zelda matchup discussion getting published ^_^

I wrote ~1/2 of it, but after seeing how some of the discussions have gotten around here lately, I'm not even sure if I want to post it anymore, lol. I can already tell it's gonna start arguments, because I'm one of the few people who knows better than to think it's in Zelda's advantage. x.x

The problem is the trolling, flaming, and general idiocy that some people can't help themselves from displaying.

Yeaaaah, I'm taking a semi-hiatus from the Zelda boards. I haven't been checking in that frequently (just the tourney thread, Q&A, GFF, and occasionally the social if it's a topic of interest), and I definitely haven't made any progress on my writeup. (Sometimes I get the urge, which is maybe why I wrote that in my last post here, but it fades pretty quickly.)

Plus I have people visiting me later this week, so I won't be around much.

This thread ain't going anywhere..... I can always bump it later.

 

[Brinzy]

I say you sling the fire.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Already wrote this in the social thread a while ago, but:

I remember that, it's just that you made the post I quoted after those two. If you don't want to finish the writeup or post it that's okay, it's up to you. I simply wanted to know what the situation was, nothing else. I most definitely didn't try to offend you or demand anything.

 

[KayLo!]

That's why I wrote:

(Sometimes I get the urge, which is maybe why I wrote that in my last post here, but it fades pretty quickly.)

@SoR: It's more a matter of getting motivated to finish it. And tbh, the thought of dumb arguments doesn't really motivate me too much. !!!

 

[Brinzy]

Yeah I suppose so because you'd be the only one to really... know anything.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

@KayLo!: Yeah I see what you are saying. I also understand that stupid arguments don't really give motivation to post something as they're the reason I never post in the tactical discussion boards.

It's still sad if we never get to read your writeup though...

 

[zeldspazz]

Guys, is this thing ever gonna get discussed? If Kaylo doesnt post her writeup, I think we should really discuss this matchup....

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Kaylo we're waiting, lol

 

[mountain_tiger]

I'm changing my mind on the match-up from 40:60 to 45:55. I still don't think it's in Zelda's advantage at all.

 

[zeldspazz]

I think its 50:50 personally. Zelda kills Pika early, can relfect all Pika's prjectiles, and doesnt like Pika get inside for the KO, but Pika really outdoes Zelda in the air and gimps her fairly easily.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

pikas also fast. she stops his approaches, but thats like most characters anyway. he can still ranged pressure even if his stuff is being reflected.

 

[KayLo!]

can relfect all Pika's prjectiles

There's a range (around mid-range) at which Pikachu can safely camp. If you do anything but Naryu's/shield/dtilt, you'll get hit with a tjolt, and if you Naryu's/dtilt, you'll get faired or grabbed in cooldown (reflected jolts will go underneath Pika). If you shield, you'll get grabbed or shield-poked with fair/dsmash. Or he'll just keep camping.

And Pikachu is fast enough to keep this range up for pretty much the entire match. If he has the lead, it's a god**** nightmare, because he can just keep tjolting with barely any way for Zelda to punish him.

AzN sort of experienced it during one of our wifi matches. Granted, it was bunzfi, so it's only like.... 50% legit, if that, but when I was going aggro, he was beating me fairly easily. Then I said "**** it, I'll camp," and it was 1038472394879x easier.

Hella boring, but easier.

 

[zeldspazz]

Meh, everything comes to camping now doesnt it >_>

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

There's a range (around mid-range) at which Pikachu can safely camp. If you do anything but Naryu's/shield/dtilt, you'll get hit with a tjolt, and if you Naryu's/dtilt, you'll get faired or grabbed in cooldown (reflected jolts will go underneath Pika). If you shield, you'll get grabbed or shield-poked with fair/dsmash. Or he'll just keep camping.

And Pikachu is fast enough to keep this range up for pretty much the entire match. If he has the lead, it's a god**** nightmare, because he can just keep tjolting with barely any way for Zelda to punish him.

AzN sort of experienced it during one of our wifi matches. Granted, it was bunzfi, so it's only like.... 50% legit, if that, but when I was going aggro, he was beating me fairly easily. Then I said "**** it, I'll camp," and it was 1038472394879x easier.

Hella boring, but easier.

Pika can't safely camp Din fire!!!!!!

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Meh, everything comes to camping now doesnt it >_>

yes it does, too bad Zelda doesn't really get those bonuses, she can't even air camp......thanks Sakurai

Pika can't safely camp Din fire!!!!!!

if only that were true

 

[KayLo!]

Pika can't safely camp Din fire!!!!!!

I.......

.....

I'm going to assume you were joking.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I.......

.....

I'm going to assume you were joking.

Use the Din to explode the Tjolt. Depending on how for the Din has traveled and the tjolt it could possibly lead to pikachu getting hit.

Can you explain the frame data to me because I don't quite understand it.

Tunder Jolt (Neutral B)
Start up: 1-18
Hitbox: 19-100 (ground jolt 100/air jolt 99)
Cooldown: 20-58

Shield Hit Lag: 7/8
Shield Stun: 2/3

Din's fire
Startup: 1-30
Hitbox: 31-32 * Instant Detonation
Cooldown: 33-56
IASA: 57

*Fireball Only
Startup: 1-8
Hitbox: 9

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I actually do counter-camp most pikas with Din's . . . but it doesn't work in every situation.

 

[KayLo!]

Use the Din to explode the Tjolt. Depending on how for the Din has traveled and the tjolt it could possibly lead to pikachu getting hit.

I actually do counter-camp most pikas with Din's . . . but it doesn't work in every situation.

Only works at long range. Like. Long range, lol. Din's is horribly slow compared to tjolts, and if you try to camp at mid-range, Pikachu has more than enough time to punish with a grab.

I do it.... all the time. (And have it done to me when I have a brain fart moment and try to Din's at mid-range.)

That's why I said there's a safe zone for Pikachu to camp from at mid-range. And it's **** easy to stay in that range vs. Zelda unless you're on a crap stage like Brinstar or Luigi's Mansion..... x.x

Platforms are also your friend to help with his camp. Don't ever play Pika on FD. It'll ruin your life.

Can you explain the frame data to me because I don't quite understand it.

Sure, I'll try to simplify it.

For thunder jolt:

Tjolts come out on frame 19. Grounded jolts last for 100 frames; air jolts last for 99 frames. (Rarely, if ever, will you see a grounded jolt from a Pikachu.)

Pikachu suffers from 39 frames of cooldown lag every time he sends out a tjolt. This is a good thing for you to know..... most people don't realize how laggy tjolt is on cooldown, although if Pikachu full hops it, he can double jump and do an aerial before he lands, making it somewhat harder to punish.

Shield Hit Lag: 7 (grounded jolts)/8 (air jolts)
Shield Stun: 2 (grounded jolts)/3 (air jolts)

Shield hit lag is basically what it sounds like.... how many frames of lag you suffer when the jolt hits your shield.

Shield stun is the time during which you're stunned within your shield (after the hitbox is gone) and can't start shield drop frames yet. This is also the time when shield pushback occurs.

Okay, now for Din's Fire:

If you instantly detonate Din's without holding it out, the hitbox comes out on frame 31. Compared to tjolt's hitbox coming out on frame 19 (which is already pretty mediocre in speed), you can see how slow Din's is compared to tjolt.

Zelda suffers from 27 frames of cooldown lag every time she uses Din's. That's not as bad as Pikachu, but Din's is slower to come out, initially slower to travel, Zelda is vulnerable for as long as you don't detonate it, and she goes into a freefall after she uses it.

*Fireball Only
Startup: 1-8
Hitbox: 9

This is basically just saying that if you hold Din's out and then explode it, from the moment you let go of the B button, the fireball's hitbox will come out 9 frames later.

Hope that helps. If you need anything clarified further, I'll try to keep rewording it until you get it, hehe.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Only works at long range. Like. Long range, lol. Din's is horribly slow compared to tjolts, and if you try to camp at mid-range, Pikachu has more than enough time to punish with a grab.

I do it.... all the time. (And have it done to me when I have a brain fart moment and try to Din's at mid-range.)

That's why I said there's a safe zone for Pikachu to camp from at mid-range. And it's **** easy to stay in that range vs. Zelda unless you're on a crap stage like Brinstar or Luigi's Mansion..... x.x

Platforms are also your friend to help with his camp. Don't ever play Pika on FD. It'll ruin your life.



Sure, I'll try to simplify it.

For thunder jolt:

Tjolts come out on frame 19. Grounded jolts last for 100 frames; air jolts last for 99 frames. (Rarely, if ever, will you see a grounded jolt from a Pikachu.)

Pikachu suffers from 39 frames of cooldown lag every time he sends out a tjolt. This is a good thing for you to know..... most people don't realize how laggy tjolt is on cooldown, although if Pikachu full hops it, he can double jump and do an aerial before he lands, making it somewhat harder to punish.

Shield Hit Lag: 7 (grounded jolts)/8 (air jolts)
Shield Stun: 2 (grounded jolts)/3 (air jolts)

Shield hit lag is basically what it sounds like.... how many frames of lag you suffer when the jolt hits your shield.

Shield stun is the time during which you're stunned within your shield (after the hitbox is gone) and can't start shield drop frames yet. This is also the time when shield pushback occurs.

Okay, now for Din's Fire:

If you instantly detonate Din's without holding it out, the hitbox comes out on frame 31. Compared to tjolt's hitbox coming out on frame 19 (which is already pretty mediocre in speed), you can see how slow Din's is compared to tjolt.

Zelda suffers from 27 frames of cooldown lag every time she uses Din's. That's not as bad as Pikachu, but Din's is slower to come out, initially slower to travel, Zelda is vulnerable for as long as you don't detonate it, and she goes into a freefall after she uses it.

*Fireball Only
Startup: 1-8
Hitbox: 9

This is basically just saying that if you hold Din's out and then explode it, from the moment you let go of the B button, the fireball's hitbox will come out 9 frames later.

Hope that helps. If you need anything clarified further, I'll try to keep rewording it until you get it, hehe.

So can't din just punish the tjolt cool down?

 

[KayLo!]

So can't din just punish the tjolt cool down?

except if you din's while the tjolt is out, you'll get hit by the tjolt, so the fireball will just keep going.............. that whole "if zelda gets hit while din's is out, she loses control over din's fire" thing.

at mid range, pika has enough time to react if you start to din's. it takes 31 frames for the first possible hitbox to come out...... the danky short-range one that doesn't do **** and explodes, like, right in front of your face when i'm talkin pika campin at mid-range, son

i need to just post my write-up, don't i? lolololol

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

except if you din's while the tjolt is out, you'll get hit by the tjolt, so the fireball will just keep going.............. that whole "if zelda gets hit while din's is out, she loses control over din's fire" thing.

at mid range, pika has enough time to react if you start to din's. it takes 31 frames for the first possible hitbox to come out...... the danky short-range one that doesn't do **** and explodes, like, right in front of your face when i'm talkin pika campin at mid-range, son

i need to just post my write-up, don't i? lolololol

19 frames the hit box comes out then 39 frames of cool down. So why can't my move that his on the 31st frame punish. Why can't i angel the din into the So that even if the tjolt hits the din's will still connect. C'mon ma you know this already.

 

[zeldspazz]

Pleeease post your write-up Kaylo :O

 

[KayLo!]

19 frames the hit box comes out then 39 frames of cool down. So why can't my move that his on the 31st frame punish. Why can't i angel the din into the So that even if the tjolt hits the din's will still connect. C'mon ma you know this already.

I just......... answered......... this question. Not coherently, but. Okay. I'll try again.

Pikachu is at mid-range. He shoots a tjolt. By the time you get Din's out, the tjolt will hit you. Zelda will lose control of the fireball, and it will keep going.

Yes, you can try to angle it, but it won't reach him in time. The 31 frame hitbox is for a fireball shot DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF ZELDA'S FACE. As in, a straight line. As in, angling it will take longer.

You're also forgetting that Pikachu will be in the air at either full hop or double jump height. He can do an advancing tjolt. He can do a retreating tjolt. He won't just be chillin in one spot, lol, so if Din's is that much of a problem at close range (which..... it isn't), he can just do a retreating tjolt and therefore be moving back out of Din's range as he's in cooldown lag.

Din's at that short of a range has balls range. It won't be hitting him if he's in the air and you explode it on the ground, and if you explode it in front of your face, it wouldn't go far enough even if there wasn't that BS "Zelda loses control of the fireball" clause.

Din's does not counter-camp Pikachu at anything other than long range. It's just not going to work, and if you try, you're going to feel bad when you get your *** kicked by tjolts (EDIT: or the 50 million other things Pika can punish Din's with at close-mid range, rofl).

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I just......... answered......... this question. Not coherently, but. Okay. I'll try again.

Pikachu is at mid-range. He shoots a tjolt. By the time you get Din's out, the tjolt will hit you. Zelda will lose control of the fireball, and it will keep going.

Yes, you can try to angle it, but it won't reach him in time. The 31 frame hitbox is for a fireball shot DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF ZELDA'S FACE. As in, a straight line. As in, angling it will take longer.

You're also forgetting that Pikachu will be in the air at either full hop or double jump height. He can do an advancing tjolt. He can do a retreating tjolt. He won't just be chillin in one spot, lol, so if Din's is that much of a problem at close range (which..... it isn't), he can just do a retreating tjolt and therefore be moving back out of Din's range as he's in cooldown lag.

Din's at that short of a range has balls range. It won't be hitting him if he's in the air and you explode it on the ground, and if you explode it in front of your face, it wouldn't go far enough even if there wasn't that BS "Zelda loses control of the fireball" clause.

Din's does not counter-camp Pikachu at anything other than long range. It's just not going to work, and if you try, you're going to feel bad when you get your *** kicked by tjolts (EDIT: or the 50 million other things Pika can punish Din's with at close-mid range, rofl).

Maybe you should make a diagram so I can get a better grasp of the length since mid range is kind of vague and ambigous. However Zelda also has the option to SH dins and retreat them and she also floats a little bit while she does it. So a sh retreating dins' fire should give you ample time to punish and also give you the ability to angle it downward and be able to trade hits.

 

[KayLo!]

I'm facedeskin my brains out right now.

I'll put a diagram on my "to-do" list, lol.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm facedeskin my brains out right now.

I'll put a diagram on my "to-do" list, lol.

Some people are visual learners. Sorry if I suck at mental brawl. Anyhow using the diagram right there can you show at which point is medium range ?

 

[KayLo!]

Anyhow using the diagram right there can you show at which point is medium range ?

Around where the 10 dot is.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

That's not even mentioning that Pika can time n-air, autocancelled d-air, and u-air to Cancel out the hitbox of dins fire (which is what i tend to do when i am long range t-jolting [fullhop n-air>t-jolt]... i'ma 'jolter'chu ^_^)

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Around where the 10 dot is.

Ah I see, then just nayru's that ****.

 

[KayLo!]

Ah I see, then just nayru's that ****.

.....................................

If you Naryu's, Pikachu can just double jump > ff fair you during your cooldown lag..... the tjolt will go right underneath him. And NL has so much cooldown lag, it's not even funny.

I don't think you realize how often I've played this MU online and offline. x.x There is a range where Pikachu's camp is pretty much unpunishable. Your only option is to shield and try to run away (lololol) or close the distance between you and Pika.

EDIT: Or use platforms. Platforms are your very best friend.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

.....................................

If you Naryu's, Pikachu can just double jump > ff fair you during your cooldown lag..... the tjolt will go right underneath him. And NL has so much cooldown lag, it's not even funny.

I don't think you realize how often I've played this MU online and offline. x.x There is a range where Pikachu's camp is pretty much unpunishable. Your only option is to shield and try to run away (lololol) or close the distance between you and Pika.

EDIT: Or use platforms. Platforms are your very best friend.

You're not the only person who's played both sides of the match up. Tjolt is punishable so just stop it. Especially at that range. The cool down on Nayru's is about the same as T jolt. Yet miraculously is this super unpunishable move I call play on this kaylo. If you're going to gripe about the cool down of NL which ends on frame 59... and not pikachu's which ends on frame 58. I find it a bit bias on your part.

 

[KayLo!]

LOL. This is why I'm not even going to post my write-up.

I'm giving you facts about the matchup. I never said it was unwinnable or that you can't, you know, get around Pikachu camping at this range. I just said that if both characters stay at this particular distance, you're going to get camped hard, and there's nothing you can do about it unless you move to long distance or shield/perfect shield and close in on Pikachu.

But whatevs. Don't believe me, just keep counter-camping with Din's and Naryu's'ing everything. Lemme know how that works out for you.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

LOL. This is why I'm not even going to post my write-up.

Maybe you shouldn't if you're going to have an obvious pikachu bias.

 

[KayLo!]

You guys have fun discussing the matchup. This is.... hilarious. I'm done here.

55:45/60:40 Pika's advantage, closer to 55:45 if you want a pretty number.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You guys have fun discussing the matchup. This is.... hilarious. I'm done here.

55:45/60:40 Pika's advantage, closer to 55:45 if you want a pretty number.

That's the biggest amount of bull ever. 60-40 Zelda at the least 55-45. Pika has trouble approaching trouble camping no QAC tricks. Dtillt trips. Yeah I'm starting to see how this match up can be in pikas favor. oH wait no I don't.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

wow, zelda drama ftw

 

[zeldspazz]

That's the biggest amount of bull ever. 60-40 Zelda at the least 55-45. Pika has trouble approaching trouble camping no QAC tricks. Dtillt trips. Yeah I'm starting to see how this match up can be in pikas favor. oH wait no I don't.

Um, I think this is why Kaylo isnt posting her writeup. We need to be flexible and accept the other side of the matchup even if you dont agree...

I understand where you are coming from Kaylo, but I still think its closer to even than Pika advantage.

 

[KayLo!]

I understand where you are coming from Kaylo, but I still think its closer to even than Pika advantage.

That's fine. I don't mind people disagreeing with me. I know this MU like the back of my hand, but my word isn't law.

But (and this obviously isn't directed towards you, zeldspazz) if you're going to debate with the facts I'm presenting, do it with some intelligence. Back up your data. And if I clearly show you why something won't work, don't just turn a blind eye and say I'm wrong because you don't like what I'm telling you. That's just ******** and why a lot of the good Zelda players don't really post here anymore.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Um, I think this is why Kaylo isnt posting her writeup. We need to be flexible and accept the other side of the matchup even if you dont agree...

I understand where you are coming from Kaylo, but I still think its closer to even than Pika advantage.

Why should I accept her argument when it's clearly bias? When she's bemoaning the cool down on Zelda's move and not factoring in pictures cool down. Then saying pikachu can safely camp when at mid range. Maybe from din's not from nayru's and not if Zelda short AD towards her. She also brought up that if you nayru's pikachu can DJ fair. Which isn't possible especially factoring the cool down from tjolt. Especially from that distance where pikach can camp and it's "impossible" to punish.