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Matchup Re-discussion (2010): Falco
- Thread starter GodAtHand
- Start date
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
Got some decent XP on this matchup today because I actually entered singles again. Will post the thoughts and opinions tomorrow sometimes. sleepy now.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
your sheik is better than your Zelda good job.Guys DEHF ***** my Zelda back around Christmas but my Sheik only got JV 2 stocked
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
Okay. So tournament yesterday. I entered singles for the first time in forever. I think I did pretty well, but that is beside the point. I played two Falco's. The general consensus from both seems to be that this matchup is 60-40 Falco.
It seems that some of what makes Falco such a great character is lost on Zelda, but certain other things work on her that wouldn't on others. His jab makes life incredibly frustrating and can stop several make-shift Zelda approaches. Zelda can definitely make it out of his chaingrab with smash DI. I think the most I got chain grabbed in a row from 0 was twice. But if the Falco knows you are smash DIing he will skip the grab and go for a running DACUS with the dash attack and upsmash both hitting and getting you to roughly 50 damage anyway in one grab.
Zelda can juggle him at low percents as well, with either several upsmashes or jabs and Ftilits to upsmashes.
I personally still have a hard time breaking a grounded Falco side B. Dtilt didn't work, Upsmash's hitbox was too high, Uptilt was too slow to do on reaction (Can be used for predictions though.), I tried jab... and that didn't work well at all, and I tried Dsmash a few times and that didn't work either. I feel like Downsmash should work though maybe I was just timing it wrong. Anyone have any verification on this?
I actually lost to a Falco in tournament =(. It was very close though last match he counterpicked me to FD and I was at like 150% surviving his Fsmashes and he was like 90% waiting to be LKd. But he ended up catching me off gaurd with an upsmash.
For both characters recovering is a pain in the butt, it is so tough for a either to get back on stage w/o massive damage if the other is edge guarding right.
And thats pretty much the jist of it.
It seems that some of what makes Falco such a great character is lost on Zelda, but certain other things work on her that wouldn't on others. His jab makes life incredibly frustrating and can stop several make-shift Zelda approaches. Zelda can definitely make it out of his chaingrab with smash DI. I think the most I got chain grabbed in a row from 0 was twice. But if the Falco knows you are smash DIing he will skip the grab and go for a running DACUS with the dash attack and upsmash both hitting and getting you to roughly 50 damage anyway in one grab.
Zelda can juggle him at low percents as well, with either several upsmashes or jabs and Ftilits to upsmashes.
I personally still have a hard time breaking a grounded Falco side B. Dtilt didn't work, Upsmash's hitbox was too high, Uptilt was too slow to do on reaction (Can be used for predictions though.), I tried jab... and that didn't work well at all, and I tried Dsmash a few times and that didn't work either. I feel like Downsmash should work though maybe I was just timing it wrong. Anyone have any verification on this?
I actually lost to a Falco in tournament =(. It was very close though last match he counterpicked me to FD and I was at like 150% surviving his Fsmashes and he was like 90% waiting to be LKd. But he ended up catching me off gaurd with an upsmash.
For both characters recovering is a pain in the butt, it is so tough for a either to get back on stage w/o massive damage if the other is edge guarding right.
And thats pretty much the jist of it.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Grounded side B can be broken by just about any ground move if it's timed right. Uggggh, I posted about it in the old Falco thread (or somewhere, maybe a "deal with X move" thread), but I'm too lazy to find it.
You're right that usmash is too high. It's only useful vs. an aerial side B.
Fsmash, jab, and dsmash definitely work; however, when I tested them, dsmash was the most reliable since in the event of a trade (which is very likely to happen, especially when reaction time in a real match comes into play) you at least get a favorable trade. With fsmash/jab, he takes like 1-2% and doesn't go anywhere while you get popped into the air. Dsmash is also slightly easier to time imo since it comes out quicker.
Fsmash is the "safest" since the hitbox stays out for so long, but because of its startup, you have to **** near predict the side B -- especially if you don't want a balls trade.
Utilt works too, but you already covered that. Ftilt's in the same boat, except it's crappier & slower.
I can't remember if dtilt works or not. I feel like it should, but I'd have to check again.
Or you can just shield. Honestly, that's what I usually do since the timing for everything else is kind of strange, but those ^^^ are your best options if you wanna go for it.
You're right that usmash is too high. It's only useful vs. an aerial side B.
Fsmash, jab, and dsmash definitely work; however, when I tested them, dsmash was the most reliable since in the event of a trade (which is very likely to happen, especially when reaction time in a real match comes into play) you at least get a favorable trade. With fsmash/jab, he takes like 1-2% and doesn't go anywhere while you get popped into the air.
Dsmash is also slightly easier to time imo since it comes out quicker.Fsmash is the "safest" since the hitbox stays out for so long, but because of its startup, you have to **** near predict the side B -- especially if you don't want a balls trade.
Utilt works too, but you already covered that. Ftilt's in the same boat, except it's crappier & slower.
I can't remember if dtilt works or not. I feel like it should, but I'd have to check again.
Or you can just shield. Honestly, that's what I usually do since the timing for everything else is kind of strange, but those ^^^ are your best options if you wanna go for it.
MrEh
Smash Hero
No invincibility.
Falco generally avoids doing grounded side B's.
Aerial ones are better.
Aerial ones are better.
MrEh
Smash Hero
No Falco in their right mind does a grounded side B unless they're trying to be funny.
... Or you could put it that way.
Grounded Side B is ridiculously laggy. Zelda could have a cup of tea before punishing it. imo.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Doesn't matter. If they're doing a Side B that high up in the air, they deserve to be u-smashed. They usually do it very low in the air. I think.
MrEh
Smash Hero
If you can Usmash a good Falco's random Phantasm on reaction, then be my guest.
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
I can usually... as long as it's not too low. I didn't ask whether he was using grounded side b, or whether he was jumping ever-so-slightly off the ground before hand... it could have been either. It still gave me quite an aggravating match though lol.
Mikey Lenetia
Smash Champion
For dsmash, you basically have to make SURE you're facing Falco when you use it. Otherwise he'll either clash or you hit him onto the stage, and that's really not a good trade. Also, he has to basically be already in the move when you use it(meaning it's after the start-up noise). It's hard to do, but eh.
Also, next time try dair or uair(if he tries to get around you). The last one is hard to do, but you might just get a thunder spike onto the stage with dair, and it'll REALLY make them think twice about getting predictable, as well as possibly put them in a bad spot.
Also, next time try dair or uair(if he tries to get around you). The last one is hard to do, but you might just get a thunder spike onto the stage with dair, and it'll REALLY make them think twice about getting predictable, as well as possibly put them in a bad spot.
AzNfinesse
Smash Journeyman
yes you can dtilt it but the timing has to be so precise that it really isn't worth it unless ur going for the dtilt lock and you have a safe lead (in other words, NEVER).
IMO the best option for dealing with side b is power shielding it. read the distance as best as you can and pshield it and punish with a grab or a smash.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Yeah, the timing for everything against side b is annoying. Either it has to be fairly precise (dtilt, dsmash), or the move's startup is long enough that you have to predict the side b (fsmash, utilt) and risk being punished for missing/guessing wrong. Jab kind of falls into a weird mix of both categories. ><
I agree that shielding is the best option, but usmash is doable against aerial phantasms once you get the hang of it.
I agree that shielding is the best option, but usmash is doable against aerial phantasms once you get the hang of it.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Downsmash should work. If you can predict the phantasm it goes a long way to making the punishment a lot easier. I believe you can also utilt him out of phantasm which will lead to a very plus trade in Zelda's favor. Prediction timing is key. You also shouldn't be in his jab range to let jab effect you that much also SDI away from the jab. IT's not 6/4 falco at all. Like you said a lot of the things that makes falco such a good character is lost on Zelda.
Falco will usually press the jump button, then immediatly side b. It stops the ending lag that you get from doing it on the ground. So it probably wasa n aerial one.
Also this.
And also, Falco's jab is frame 2, so it ruins everyone. lol
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Usmash startup is fairly small. As long as you're facing the right way and you aren't in the middle of doing something else, it shouldn't be that hard. kinda depends on how close you two are though, I guess.
sniperworm
Smash Ace
Was Falco lagging a long time after the sideB? If he was lagging in that amazing Falco sideB pose, then he was doing grounded ones. If he didn't really lag and was plopping on the ground at the end, then he was jumping.
Falco's sideB is pretty hard to Usmash on reaction unless you're expecting it; and if you're expecting it, then obviously the Falco you're playing is using it too much. With that being said, keep in mind that long range sideB from Falco (or any sideB that isn't at fairly close range) can easily be a bluff designed to make you Usmash while he cancels and proceeds to hit you with a smash...
MrEh
Smash Hero
If Falco knows how to cancel those Phantasms, he's going to laugh at your feeble attempts to punish him. Also, like sniperworm said, if Falco is doing the Phantasm right, he's not going to lag. The instant aerial one is hard to punish.
I mean, how often is Falco going to Phantasm right at you in the proper position where you can punish him? Not often. Just because Zelda can beat out his Phantasm doesn't mean that it's worth discussing, because it'll rarely happen to begin with.
Dunno why there's so much talk about a pointless move like SideB when people could be talking about Lasers and Jab. You know...moves that matter. If the Falco you're playing does not use these moves, then the Falco probably sucks...or he's trying to be funny.
I mean, how often is Falco going to Phantasm right at you in the proper position where you can punish him? Not often. Just because Zelda can beat out his Phantasm doesn't mean that it's worth discussing, because it'll rarely happen to begin with.
Dunno why there's so much talk about a pointless move like SideB when people could be talking about Lasers and Jab. You know...moves that matter. If the Falco you're playing does not use these moves, then the Falco probably sucks...or he's trying to be funny.
Darkmusician
Smash Master
Falcos jab stuffs Zelda in so many ways. Do not get stubborn and try to challenge it. You will only make Falcos job of racking damage easier than it already is.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
sniperwoooooorm <3
That's pretty much all I wanted to say.
That's pretty much all I wanted to say.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Of course we're going to assume that the falco is going to cancel his phantasm and will IAP it. However, Like I said reading and predicting it goes a long way. It can be punished.
clowsui
Smash Legend
late reply but it has invincibility in the first third
also wow @ this blatant underrating of falco by Almost..."just predict, that's what makes the matchup not 6/4". prediction does not change ratios
the power of jab is that falco still has you in a range that he can hit you with stuff like ftilt dash attack grab depending on your DI...he controls the situation w/ mixups
utilting/dsmashing falco in a range where it is feasible to punish falco (beyond the first third) is a little annoying because falco at that point can choose to just land from the side b or shoot lasers...granted it's possible to punish the empty short hop or to trade w/ an shl using zelda's dash attack at that point iirc
falco can zone zelda hard w/ side b, laser, bair, jab and ftilt, which is really annoying for zelda...then again most zeldas in this country are garbo so :/
Darkmusician
Smash Master
Falco's double jab is pretty beast.
And yeah my favorite thing to do with Falco vs other Zeldas is to predict f-smashes and walk and jab. That jab is so magical.
@Clowsui-How practical is Falco's Bdacus in this match up and in general?
And yeah my favorite thing to do with Falco vs other Zeldas is to predict f-smashes and walk and jab. That jab is so magical.
@Clowsui-How practical is Falco's Bdacus in this match up and in general?
know justd pradickt teh side b and punich the lazors and stuffz this makes matchup evun OR SLIGHTLY IN ZALDA'S FAVOAUR!!!!!!!!!!111!!!!.
srs though, I like this post.
clowsui
Smash Legend
That jab is absurdly magical lol...lovable even
BDacus is yet another reason not to stay up close vs. Falco, if you don't DI up then he'll getcha from the Dthrow...we haven't tested for Zelda though so who knows, I might be wrong.
Other than that I'm not sure seeing as BDacus is still a relatively unexplored tactic. It's a great tool that rewards prediction and also scares ppl from attempting mid-range mixups aerially low to the ground or on the ground. I'm not sure if Falco can do this out of reaction which is why I say it rewards prediction. Falco having the option to BDacus out of quite a few things puts pressure on the opponent though, to the point where Falco gets free damage because they DI a certain way to avoid being killed instead.
I haven't gotten it down consistently seeing as I don't own a Wii, so don't trust my opinion on this as the last word.
@Aerodrome thanks
More notes on this MU:
Zelda really has to find a way around Falco's surprisingly good ledge trap, and frame traps cause by his UAir. UAir trades with DAir even spaced poorly (iirc).
Falco's double jab destroys Zelda's close-range options.
Spotdodging against Zelda is pretty sweet, especially since Falco's airdodge is much like Wario's: spammable and highly ******** broken.
Falco having an excellent fullhop is a nuisance for Zelda, I think. It makes his BAir a particularly viable tool for keeping Zelda out.
Zelda should honestly just switch to Sheik in this matchup because Sheik has a 50:50 with Falco. On YI/FD/PS1 I'd argue Sheik has the advantage, and on SV/BF/Delfino Falco has advantage. Halberd, CS and LC, it's even...with regards to starters.
Darkmusician
Smash Master
My favorite is bdacus out of b reverse lasers, or bdacus out of taunt.
And thanks for the info Clowsui. I agree.
And thanks for the info Clowsui. I agree.
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
This thread is dead... am I in charge of summarizing and giving the final verdict on the match-up? And should I update the front page with that stuff once/if I finish?
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
I'll get working on it next week and probably finish on wednesday.
Falco Zelda is probably 65-35 or 70-30
Falco can camp Zelda pretty hard and make it difficult for her to approach. When Zelda does get in she racks up a lot of damage with usmash.
Zelda can have quite the problem edgeguarding Falco, his recovery is so fast and is difficult to predict with the mix ups. If Zelda can dtilt Falco out of his side b it can lead to a free dsmash or usmash. Falco edgeguarding Zelda is much more easier. Falco can force Zelda to recover far away from the stage, it pretty much makes Zelda's recovery very easy to guess.
Zelda's kill moves are the one reason why this match up isn't too bad. Zelda's bair, fair, and uair will kill Falco at about 80.
Falco can camp Zelda pretty hard and make it difficult for her to approach. When Zelda does get in she racks up a lot of damage with usmash.
Zelda can have quite the problem edgeguarding Falco, his recovery is so fast and is difficult to predict with the mix ups. If Zelda can dtilt Falco out of his side b it can lead to a free dsmash or usmash. Falco edgeguarding Zelda is much more easier. Falco can force Zelda to recover far away from the stage, it pretty much makes Zelda's recovery very easy to guess.
Zelda's kill moves are the one reason why this match up isn't too bad. Zelda's bair, fair, and uair will kill Falco at about 80.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Larry has spoken.
Anyway, DM and DEHF played this matchup to death the past week or so. The matchup is worse then most Zelda players believe. Looking back at what I saw this past week, I have no doubts that the matchup is 65-35 max. As of now, I think it's 30-70. Zelda still has nothing on that jab. lol
Anyway, DM and DEHF played this matchup to death the past week or so. The matchup is worse then most Zelda players believe. Looking back at what I saw this past week, I have no doubts that the matchup is 65-35 max. As of now, I think it's 30-70. Zelda still has nothing on that jab. lol
How come when I mearly suggested 70-30, almost everyone fell of their chairs and exploded into some sort of frenzied rage?
>__________>
Does this mean I can go back to my original statement? =D
>__________>
Does this mean I can go back to my original statement? =D
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
I don't know if you want me to do this update now, since it seems that people are changing their opinion on the numbers.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Isn't that how it always is? People need to realize that ya girl sucks, lol.
Anyways, I can't wait for Bobby to post some of those vids.
Darkmusician
Smash Master
Yeah at the highest level Falco shuts Zelda down quite easily. He can edge guard/annoy her off the stage forcing her to up b early or force her to do so in ways that'll just get her hit again anyway.
Falco can do a walking chain grab on Zelda from 0 to 40 and even without the off stage spike he gets a chance at a mix up on stage. The running chain grab doesn't work due to the range of the grab being greater when he is walking/standing up right.
After playing Larry I think that while this isn't a close match up it isn't death.
65-35
Falco can do a walking chain grab on Zelda from 0 to 40 and even without the off stage spike he gets a chance at a mix up on stage. The running chain grab doesn't work due to the range of the grab being greater when he is walking/standing up right.
After playing Larry I think that while this isn't a close match up it isn't death.
65-35