GodAtHand
Smash Lord
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Matchup Re-discussion (2010): Falco
- Thread starter GodAtHand
- Start date
MrEh
Smash Hero
This. Seriously.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Spam your reflect till he comes to you, then smash or run away.
Falco can just reflect the reflected laser. Quite sad really.Very inciteful - I might try to use this strategy
_
But no. That isn't very effective because Falco never ever needs to approach.
I wish we had Nayru's Love from OoT. (Eg we don't take damage from anything. xD)
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
I'm being absolutely serious..... frankly, I'm tired of seeing people auto-deny ratios like 30:70 and 35:65 when the fact is that Zelda sucks very very badly, and she's severely disadvantaged against a lot of top/high tier characters (......plus some others lol).
Trust me, I'm all for discussing matchups and advancing her metagame however we can in the face of her crapiness, but blind optimism isn't the way to do it.
I'll work on the Snake thread OP, but uh. You know how lazy I am.
He can easily wait and laser you in NL's cooldown if you're spamming it. ;;
Like who? Plz be specific. What tourney zeldas do you see auto-denying? Legendary?
Some people go about their posts in a way that makes it seem like the community doesn't know she sucks. Trust me the community knows. I hope you and others know it knows... since the beginning of... 2009... Also I think everyone knew this particular matchup was never played at high level, and now that it has, the input has been welcomed not brushed like it's being implied. I can't see any "auto-denying" here. lol?
Applies to Eh also. You guys should both come on the xat.
Darkmusician
Smash Master
Neutral B should be used more for the invincibility and not for the reflecting properties.
Do not underestimate the priority of this back air. That is Falcos best edge guarding air move against Zelda when she is coming down towards the stage. Trying to challenge it with nair isn't worth it. You could try to dodge it or dair it, but that can be easily baited. Don't forget about Falco's reflector. It has more utility than I thought. Falco can use it to eat your double jump on recovery and or use it on reaction on stage when you try to run, approach him. Given Zelda's foot speed doing it on reaction isn't hard to do.
Do not underestimate the priority of this back air. That is Falcos best edge guarding air move against Zelda when she is coming down towards the stage. Trying to challenge it with nair isn't worth it. You could try to dodge it or dair it, but that can be easily baited. Don't forget about Falco's reflector. It has more utility than I thought. Falco can use it to eat your double jump on recovery and or use it on reaction on stage when you try to run, approach him. Given Zelda's foot speed doing it on reaction isn't hard to do.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
@Kata: Look at the entire first part of this thread. The moment a ratio like 30-70 was mentioned, it wasn't discussed, it was denied straight off the bat. Granted, Aero didn't do the best job of backing him(?)self up, but nobody even considered that the matchup might be that bad.
Thank god Bobby got to play DEHF and set people straight, but other MU discussions -- threads and casual discussions elsewhere -- aren't so fortunate. If I see one more person say "40:60" or "evenish" to a MU they clearly know nothing about, I will punch the next baby I see.
Played at a high level or not, some matchups are OBVIOUSLY bad for Zelda. Falco close to evenish when he's one of the best campers in the game and Zelda is balls against camp of any kind???? If you don't have the experience (which is often the case since we only have ~3 honestly competitive Zeldas), at least have common sense.
/2cents.... or maybe 4
Thank god Bobby got to play DEHF and set people straight, but other MU discussions -- threads and casual discussions elsewhere -- aren't so fortunate. If I see one more person say "40:60" or "evenish" to a MU they clearly know nothing about, I will punch the next baby I see.
Played at a high level or not, some matchups are OBVIOUSLY bad for Zelda. Falco close to evenish when he's one of the best campers in the game and Zelda is balls against camp of any kind???? If you don't have the experience (which is often the case since we only have ~3 honestly competitive Zeldas), at least have common sense.
/2cents.... or maybe 4
Darkmusician
Smash Master
Yeah I'm really glad that Larry was kind enough to come down and play with us for a week or so. It totally changed my perspective of the match up.
This is NOT a close match up. But being able to kill at 80-85 gives Zelda a chance.
Stages I would take Falco to...Brinstar (if he doesn't ban it). Also Lylat Cruise, Halberd, Delfino, and or *shudder* Yoshi's Island. (I'm not kidding)
Chances for lower precent up kills, slants screw with Zelda but at the very least prevent Falco from using side b as freely as he would like. He can still do it but not as much.
In most situations I would recommend not trying to kill Falco with kicks or forward smash unless you get a really good read or punish. Up kills are the way to go. Up tilt, up air. Up smash for revenge kills when you respawn. Any other time it's a damage racking tool for me. Wait until he's at about 110-115 before you go for it though otherwise he may not die depending on the stage. (These numbers are more or less referring to the starter stages) I like down smash when he's at high damage because of the angle it sends him.
This is NOT a close match up. But being able to kill at 80-85 gives Zelda a chance.
Stages I would take Falco to...Brinstar (if he doesn't ban it). Also Lylat Cruise, Halberd, Delfino, and or *shudder* Yoshi's Island. (I'm not kidding)
Chances for lower precent up kills, slants screw with Zelda but at the very least prevent Falco from using side b as freely as he would like. He can still do it but not as much.
In most situations I would recommend not trying to kill Falco with kicks or forward smash unless you get a really good read or punish. Up kills are the way to go. Up tilt, up air. Up smash for revenge kills when you respawn. Any other time it's a damage racking tool for me. Wait until he's at about 110-115 before you go for it though otherwise he may not die depending on the stage. (These numbers are more or less referring to the starter stages) I like down smash when he's at high damage because of the angle it sends him.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
I really hate to say this like this but just because DM is the best Zelda doesn't mean him vs larry is any indication of the mU at all. I've said it before and I'll say it again when there's huge skill gaps between players the MU ratio gets skewed. That's exactly what we have here.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
It doesn't make it the end-all be-all, but Bobby being one of the best Zeldas means that he more or less represents the top of her current metagame -- along with other top Zeldas, of course. (Read: Riot, Scary, sorta Jux, and those're the only ones I can think of who get solid singles results.)
Honestly, it wouldn't be such a big deal if the idea of Zelda vs. Falco (and some other characters we've talked about in the past) being evenish wasn't laughable. He camps her soooo hard, and even at close range, he has moves (*coughjabcough*) that make things difficult for her. Let's not even discuss air game.
I understand that with a competitive pool so small, we won't be able to be accurate all the time..... there're a ton of MUs that Zeldas will never fully know since they'll never be played at a high enough level. But if we gotta theorycraft, let's be smart about it and frank about how crap she is.
Honestly, it wouldn't be such a big deal if the idea of Zelda vs. Falco (and some other characters we've talked about in the past) being evenish wasn't laughable. He camps her soooo hard, and even at close range, he has moves (*coughjabcough*) that make things difficult for her. Let's not even discuss air game.
I understand that with a competitive pool so small, we won't be able to be accurate all the time..... there're a ton of MUs that Zeldas will never fully know since they'll never be played at a high enough level. But if we gotta theorycraft, let's be smart about it and frank about how crap she is.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
I'll admit that he camps her hard. However, to say the MU is 65:35 because DEHF wrecked DM is quite silly. While DM may be consider one of the better if not the best Zelda's I'll disagree the notion that he's at the top of her metagame. Until Zelda's start utlizing nair to it's upmost and stop throwing out 1038383989322 LK's Zelda's potential will continue to suffer. But that's just my opinion.
Darkmusician
Smash Master
DEHF was clearly the better player, but he did not by any stretch of the imagination wreck me. You'll see in the matches that I upload later. My internet is down and I am borrowing from some random wireless.
I never said that my word was law or that it was exactly how the match up should be. These match up threads are all about posting your honest and constructive opinions. Take it for whatever it's worth. I'm just some guy from Hawaii.
I never said that my word was law or that it was exactly how the match up should be. These match up threads are all about posting your honest and constructive opinions. Take it for whatever it's worth. I'm just some guy from Hawaii.
Oh my... lots of posts.
@Kay:- that's a fair enough response. Next time I think you guys should be a little more specific. When you say "people", I hope you're referring to 1 or 2 people, as opposed to targeting the whole community.
@Legendary:- The more top zelda vs top falco fights the more defined the matchup will be but right now dm vs dehf is the closest we have to a top zelda fighting THE top states falco, so I think the information that comes from this should be appreciated instead of [what looks like] moaning.
@Kay:- that's a fair enough response. Next time I think you guys should be a little more specific. When you say "people", I hope you're referring to 1 or 2 people, as opposed to targeting the whole community.
@Legendary:- The more top zelda vs top falco fights the more defined the matchup will be but right now dm vs dehf is the closest we have to a top zelda fighting THE top states falco, so I think the information that comes from this should be appreciated instead of [what looks like] moaning.
He.
And yes, I did a terrible job at backing myself up. But tbh, no one cared that lasers and jab > Zelda's entire moveset.
Lightning kicks are great and all, but if you don't sweetspot it consistantly, you'll get punished.
Also, Falco's airgame > Zelda's nair.
Falco has heaps of random crap he can pull on Zelda. Bdacus, DSHL, IAP and Jab all do their job at completely wrecking Zelda's approaches. Hell, even if, for some reason, Falco decided to approach, he'd still beat us out. lol
PK-ow!
Smash Lord
In air-to-air, I'm not so sure of that.
In Samus v Falco, Samus' NAir, while nothing can make that move not crap, ends up being a rather
Certainly in Zelda's matchup you don't gain anything in specific landing a flub LK, but I don't think it's too bad an outcome if you plan for the case where you do flub.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Falco just Bairs the crap out of Zelda in the air.
It's hilarious.
It's hilarious.
Landing a sourspotted fair/bair is bad for this reason:
The hitstun is pathetic.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Sourspot kicks are pretty much always disadvantageous on hit frame-wise..... the only time you can string into anything is if the opponent doesn't react in time. And the damage output/positioning is rarely worth it for the trade.
It can be mindgame-y sometimes, but it's never worked out particularly well for me in this MU. ;;
It can be mindgame-y sometimes, but it's never worked out particularly well for me in this MU. ;;
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
I lost to BloodCross again at APEX and didn't make out of final pools because of it! D=
Had my closest matches with him in a while, literally down to the wire. I was just kind of upset that out of the 250-ish entrants I had to play someone from my region...
Had my closest matches with him in a while, literally down to the wire. I was just kind of upset that out of the 250-ish entrants I had to play someone from my region...
Darkmusician
Smash Master
The hitstun on Falco's bair isn't the issue. It's the fact that it's fast and Zelda has nothing to challenge it safely.
I don't believe anyone said anything about the hitstun of Falco's Bair.
I was talking about the hitstun of Zelda's sourspotted kicks.
I probably should have made that more clear sorry.
Darkmusician
Smash Master
lol It's no problem but yeah that was very confusing.
I've read this thread so many times, but this is what still won't let me sleep easily, I know it's kind of a stupid question, but how do I SDI out of the chaingrab?!?
MrEh
Smash Hero
You don't SDI the chaingrab. Falco will always grab you the maximum amount of times and then Dair you or something afterwards. There's nothing you can do about it.
'V'
Smash Lord
This is true... And I've never been a fan of this matchup. It's like playing a game of cat-and-mouse with the Zelda chasing. And chasing as Zelda is not all that fun. His jab is annoying as hell too.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I agree with this.
once we catch falco, we can hurt him QUITE badly. He's normally pretty good at not getting caught though. So it all comes down to how often we can catch him
MrEh
Smash Hero
That's actually not true. At close range, Falco destroys Zelda with one move.
'V'
Smash Lord
Jab is soooo gay...
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
then we havn't caught him yet, have we?
He camps us well and he can keep us off of him with Jab.
Finding an opening is quite hard. Once an opening arises, our punishment is severe. That's what I was saying, and it's true.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Punish...jab? Severely?
What?
What?
Darkmusician
Smash Master
Choose your punishes vs Falco carefully because you will not get many chances to do so. Unless Zelda can make good reads and get early kills this fight shouldn't be close.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
just about every attack that zelda HAS punishes falco severely. And if that severe punishment causes him to need to recover, then that's great positioning normally.
That and Zelda's DSmash destroys falco.
'V'
Smash Lord
I don't think ALL of her attacks punish him like that. If anything, most of his attacks punish HER severely. Jab, grab, boost grab, Laser, B-air, Side-B, D-smash, shine, Short hopped D-air... That's a pretty big list...
The most I think Zelda has that can punish him for sure are D-smash, U-smash, and D-tilt. Maybe N-air on the side of him and B-air and F-air only if he attacks her shield with a laggy move or if he misses a grab or something.
The most I think Zelda has that can punish him for sure are D-smash, U-smash, and D-tilt. Maybe N-air on the side of him and B-air and F-air only if he attacks her shield with a laggy move or if he misses a grab or something.