Matchup Re-discussion (2010): Falco

[GodAtHand]

Zelda vs. Falco

( Link to central matchup thread. )

35-65​

Resources used for discussion:
Our Original Matchup Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235579
Their Matchup Opinion/Thread: 40:60 in Falco's favor. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=259481

Zelda Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218082
Falco Hitbubble Data: http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=126516


Summary:
Start of the Match:
At range “Falco can zone zelda hard w/ side b, laser, bair, jab and ftilt, which is really annoying for Zelda” -clowsui. So Zelda's goal when Falco is at low percents is to get in to deal damage without taking damage from Falco's ranged tactics. Getting grabbed at 0% will result in anywhere between 30 and 50% without a proper means of escape. Zelda can juggle him at low percents with either several upsmashes, or jabs and ftilits into upsmashes.

Notes:
Lasers
Short-hopped lasers can be dtilted under. Grounded ones cannot.
Nayru's love will reflect lasers.
The most agreed upon tactic to getting around the lasers is powershielding.

Phantasm (Falco's Side B)
Dsmash seems to be the most reliable counter to a grounded Falco Side B. Unfortunately though “Falco will usually press the jump button, then immediately side b. It stops the ending lag that you get from doing it on the ground.” – Aerodrome.
A roughly shoulder height or above side B can be upsmashed.
A solution to the jumping immediate side b might be to predict and Fsmash, or to instantly dash attack, practice and see what works and what doesn't (Then get back to me!).
​

Mid-Match:
“Falco eventually has to come in against Zelda, and she is known for her really good defensive wall game.” -Mikey Lenitia
Make good use of this while Falco is searching for a kill move. Now is your chance to try to zone him and deal as much damage as possible while still keeping an eye open for the chance to get a surprise kill. “Zelda's kill moves are the one reason why this match up isn't too bad. Zelda's bair, fair, and uair will kill Falco at about 80.” -DEHF.

Recovery:
Take advantage of Falco's recovery by edgeguarding and trapping him into taking damage. Remember to use moves that send him downward or at a bad angle since his UpB is easy to ledgehog. His sideB is, unfortunately, not as simple. Try to trick him into going where you want him to go, or scare him into a punish. On the other hand be just as careful with your recovery. Although both have fairly easy to edgeguard recoveries, “Falco edgeguarding Zelda is much easier.” –DEHF

Notes:
Recovering
Try not to use Farore's wind unless it is absolutely necessary.
Keep your options open and watch for platforms (A Falco bair has a less chance of killing you than his upsmash).
Space your moves carefully against a recovering Falco's side b, it can spike you downward.​

Stages:
Smaller stages will reduce the distance you need to dodge his lasers in order to get in. Unless you have some particular likes or dislikes with your Zelda smaller stages are typically more supporting in this MU.

End notes:
If you have any videos, useful new information, etc. feel free to post in this thread and if I think it's cool or something I might update this page with it.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Hmmmm... Falco.

Well, he will often be camping somewhere. Shield his lasers (Powershield preferably) while approaching him. Umm, his close range options aren't that great, and he's not particularly strong (Except maybe his U-smash, but it's slow.) and thank GOD his chaingrab doesn't work on us.

Watch for spikes. Avoid lasers.

Yeah...

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Why does you have it say their MU says 6-4 when it says it's an even MU ?


What do you do about his lasers?

I either try to PS the lasers or Reflect them. I also try to send Din's at him just to try and slow him down. Especially on stages where's the a platform.

How do you handle his side B?

Shield it or predict where he'll land I think Zelda can usmash and dsmash him out of it.

What is Zelda's primary source of damage racking?

Usmash and nair me thinks. He's a fast faller and Zelda can take advantage of that fact.

What are Zelda's primary methods of killing?

Fsmash is really good to kill dsmash is super effective since his recovery is balls and dsmash can send him at horrible angles.

Where and when to go for LKs and gimps?

I don't go for gimps unless he's below the stage his phatasm is such annoying to try and gimp him when he does that is silly.

LK whenever pretty much. I always try to LK someone whenever they hit my shield. Bair OoS is really good and can kill him at like 70.

I think the MU is 50/50.

 

[GodAtHand]

Why does you have it say their MU says 6-4 when it says it's an even MU ?

oops, I went down to the matchup discussion and theirs said 60-40 or 50-50, but on the pic it just says 50-50. Take it as you will. lol somewhere between those two seems to be what they think. Although they haven't updated this matchup yet, but they plan to.

 

[KayLo!]

I haven't played this MU in tourney or mm, so I only have a general idea from doing it in a number of friendlies recently, but...... it feels really really annoying.

The match always seems to go:
Falco shoots lasers.
Zelda approaches (preferably without getting hit) until he's boxed in at the ledge.
Falco tries to get to the other side of the stage to shoot more lasers.
Zelda tries to prevent him from doing so.
Falco eventually succeeds.
Rinse & repeat.

And both take damage in the process until they have to get close to try to land kill moves. The goal seems to be to get close enough that Falco can't laser camp, then prevent him from getting past you by any means possible.

Both recoveries suck, so there's potential for gimping/major edgeguarding on both sides.

It's too bad Zelda can't plank.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

You guys, I hate to say this but I think we fall into the same category as Marth and that we can get CG'ed as long as they do it right. I'm dead serious! At CEO, this past weekend, I was getting CG'ed -> spiked a lot and there was nothing I could do. I **** you not! Someone needs to test this. My thought is that if Falco dashes in between grabs, he loses the grab. If he WALKS, we get ****ed! No lie!

 

[MrEh]

I was getting CG spiked as Bowser too.

But then I remembered that Smash DI exists.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I know that, but I mean the CG I think is unavoidable. As long as they do it right, we get nailed. Not cool it is. In all honesty, I'm never able to get out of it.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I think the MU is 50/50.

LOL

Oh god, lol.

...

LOL

You’re funny.

60-40 Falco, at best. Probably more 70-30 Falco though.

Solutions: switch to Sheik. That’s a more even match up.

You guys, I hate to say this but I think we fall into the same category as Marth and that we can get CG'ed as long as they do it right. I'm dead serious! At CEO, this past weekend, I was getting CG'ed -> spiked a lot and there was nothing I could do. I **** you not! Someone needs to test this. My thought is that if Falco dashes in between grabs, he loses the grab. If he WALKS, we get ****ed! No lie!

I was asking a Falco player about this, and it's true. Zelda can now be chaingrabbed apparently. (Well, according to him anyway.)

 

[GodAtHand]

At low percents she certainly can be chain grabbed, but once you are passed like 30% I've never had it happen to me. Just smash DI out of it and use an airiel or jump. If you get grabbed first thing he can probably get like 3 or 4 grabs on you depending on stage length and how well you DI.

 

[Mikey Lenetia]

In other words, we can purposefully eat damage to avoid the chaingrab. Which is kinda funny when you think about it, especially if we keep sending Din's into the ground, which might eventually give us an opening on him.

Also, about Phantasm... I think the first hit of dsmash, dair, usmash if he goes through that range only, and utilt all go through it. So, even if he tries to get past us and he's at high percents, he's only sending himself careening into something VERY powerful from Zelda.

If it wasn't for that and the fact Zelda can actually gimp him, I'd say the match would be more heavily in Falco's favor. But... I don't think it is. I'm not sure what ratio I want to give it, but this is actually one of Zelda's more winnable matchups, especially if the Falco is properly read and dealt with.

 

[Kataefi]

Mikey something looks different about you =p
have you always had a purple name?
_

• 
  Zelda
  Walking Chaingrab : 2 times ?
  Running Chaingrab : Impossible

^from falco boards - I don't know if it's outdated.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You guys, I hate to say this but I think we fall into the same category as Marth and that we can get CG'ed as long as they do it right. I'm dead serious! At CEO, this past weekend, I was getting CG'ed -> spiked a lot and there was nothing I could do. I **** you not! Someone needs to test this. My thought is that if Falco dashes in between grabs, he loses the grab. If he WALKS, we get ****ed! No lie!

I think you can DJ out of it if you try to like air dodge you'll get re grabbed. I'd have the same thing happen to me. However, dthrow is annoying because of the options he has afterwards if he can't CG you he can still dair you and then re grab. Or do the gattling combo after a dthrow

LOL

Oh god, lol.

...

LOL

You’re funny.

60-40 Falco, at best. Probably more 70-30 Falco though.

Solutions: switch to Sheik. That’s a more even match up.





I was asking a Falco player about this, and it's true. Zelda can now be chaingrabbed apparently. (Well, according to him anyway.)

There is no way in hell this MU is 70-30. I'm sorry the MU is not a bad one for Zelda it's one of her better MU's. There's absolutely no need to switch the sheik and sheik barely wins this match up at least according to the falco boards. Staying Zelda is fine. Care to say why falco wins this MU 70-30 ? If the falco mU is 70-30 the snake and MK might as well be 120-0. I'm tired this dumb *** ratios.

In other words, we can purposefully eat damage to avoid the chaingrab. Which is kinda funny when you think about it, especially if we keep sending Din's into the ground, which might eventually give us an opening on him.

Also, about Phantasm... I think the first hit of dsmash, dair, usmash if he goes through that range only, and utilt all go through it. So, even if he tries to get past us and he's at high percents, he's only sending himself careening into something VERY powerful from Zelda.

If it wasn't for that and the fact Zelda can actually gimp him, I'd say the match would be more heavily in Falco's favor. But... I don't think it is. I'm not sure what ratio I want to give it, but this is actually one of Zelda's more winnable matchups, especially if the Falco is properly read and dealt with.

I agree with this post.

 

[clowsui]

if falco boosts grabs i think he can get zelda 4x

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Mikey said a lot of what I would have wanted to.

the long and short is that Falco is a better character overall, but a lot of what makes him good just doesn't work on Zelda. at least not well.

Then again, he can camp us hard. If he couldn't do that, I might be tempted to say this matchup is actually in OUR favor, but since he can, that's enough to give him a small, but noticeable advantage here.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Probably flawed logic, but I'll risk looking stupid.

If Zelda has such wonderfully decent match ups against top tier characters, she wouldn't be the third worst character in the game according to the tier list.

Most people agree that Falco has an advantage against Zelda. Saying it's even is silly.

 

[GodAtHand]

If Zelda has such wonderfully decent match ups against top tier characters, she wouldn't be the third worst character in the game according to the tier list.

So a roughly 30-70 against Meta and Snake is wonderfully decent? Seeing as how Falco is the third high tier for our 2010 discussions you aren't going off of much.

Most people agree that Falco has an advantage against Zelda. Saying it's even is silly.

Well the Falco's say it is somewhere between 50-50 and 40-60 there favor and the Zelda's aren't done discussing yet... so who else are you talking that really matters here?

 

[Mikey Lenetia]

We all agree he has an advantage in the general flow of the match. However, he has to eventually come in against Zelda, and she is known for her really good defensive wall game. On top of that, Falco's recovery is terrible, and allows for both sides(since Zelda's recovery isn't too good, either) to set up edgeguards and punishment. Because of all that, whatever huge advantage he would have is almost negated to him having a slight advantage.

And she's the third worst character in the tier list because of under representation and the fact that everyone voted her down, causing a landslide lowering of her placement. It's kinda the same thing that caused Pit to rise without merit.

I'd be much more willing to listen and understand, Aero, if you said why this matchup is so bad for Zelda, aside from her tier placement. So, please, what is it he has that makes this so bad for her? ^_^;

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

honestly. And I'm serious here, I don't mind falco.


Yes, he can punish us HARD for mistakes. BUT, unlike some of our truly bad matchups, we can beat him just by playing well. With many of our mathcups, it doesn't matter how well WE play, we still have to rely on our oponent making enough mistakes for us to win. Falco isn't that way. We can beat him just by making sure WE have a good game.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Probably flawed logic, but I'll risk looking stupid.

If Zelda has such wonderfully decent match ups against top tier characters, she wouldn't be the third worst character in the game according to the tier list.

Most people agree that Falco has an advantage against Zelda. Saying it's even is silly.

Ugh this post is so much fail. If you're going to argue your points like this you may as well stay out of the thread because you're not adding to discussion at all.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ugh this post is so much fail. If you're going to argue your points like this you may as well stay out of the thread because you're not adding to discussion at all.

he admitted he was risking looking stupid for saying it. give him a break kid.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Hmmmmmm... Perhaps I exaggerated the match up a little. Still, I believe it's no better than 60:40 because:

- Lasers camp us really hard.
- His recovery is generally better (Side B. Fire Bird is horrible though.)
- He has a decent air game (Whereas, we don't.)
- Dair.
- Great approach options.
- Fast on the ground and decent speed in the air.

Also, I was wrong on Falco's Up-smash. It hits on frame 8. And it's his best smash attack.

Umm, I can't think of much else, but I know that Falco has a ton of AT's like Bdacus and whatnot.

70-30 probably was a bit of an exaggerated number, but imo, 60-40 fits the bill because our metagame hasn't really advanced since the last discussion, whereas Falco's has.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

70-30 probably was a bit of an exaggerated number, but imo, 60-40 fits the bill because our metagame hasn't really advanced since the last discussion, whereas Falco's has.

not really in terms of his Zelda matchup though. because, I mean, nobody cares about their Zelda matchups.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm sure the BBR was trolling us when they made Hyrule tier.

 

[MrEh]

I'm sure the BBR was trolling us when they made Hyrule tier.

I don't. I think that it was a wakeup call that Zelda players either need to...


A. Step up their game

or

B. Accept that Zelda sucks


Both of which were not accomplished up to the tier list's creation.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Well A won't happen.

And of course Zelda sucks. She's worse than Ivysaur, even if Ivy didn't have a recovery and just slid off the edge. Or so they say.

Well, she's worse than Link at least. imo anyway.

 

[MrEh]

Well A won't happen.

It's not that Zelda is incapable of rising a few spots on the tier list. That's not the problem.

And of course Zelda sucks. She's worse than Ivysaur, even if Ivy didn't have a recovery and just slid off the edge. Or so they say.Well, she's worse than Link at least. imo anyway.

There's a difference between being bad and being worse then Link and Ivysaur.

Zelda is bad. She is not that bad.

 

[Kataefi]

And... back to falco.

Does someone wanna get the falcos in here?

 

[MrEh]

And... back to falco.

Does someone wanna get the falcos in here?

What Falcos play good Zeldas?

None. Due to the aforementioned reason above. Their input would be appreciated, but they'd just be repeating what's already been said.

 

[Darkmusician]

There's a good chance I can contribute some new/refreshed insight to this match up. Just give me about 2 months or so.

 

[GodAtHand]

I can talk to some Falco's this weekend if you guys want since I am going to a tournament, I'll see what I kind do.

 

[KayLo!]

Do it, Riot!

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I'm gonna have to get the duster out so I can clean up RedHalberd's dusty ol' Falco. See if I can add anything else as well.

 

[Tewx2]

Zelda vs Falco is a pretty easy MU

It's a one step process.

As soon as the match begins you press down-b and do work.

 

[GodAtHand]

I would honestly wait until you take some damage, that way you won't get insta-chain-grabbed to death.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I would honestly wait until you take some damage, that way you won't get insta-chain-grabbed to death.

I agree. The zelda damage buffer can really help sheik in this matchup. And, of course, the sheik **** of falco is helpful to Zelda.

 

[sniperworm]

Sheik does not **** Falco...

Ftilt wrecks bad players, just saying.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sheik does not **** Falco...

Ftilt wrecks bad players, just saying.

sheik destroys falco off the stage though. Even so, I agree. Sheik does marginally better than zelda in this matchup. And Zelda/Sheik does marginally better than sheik due to the immunity to early chaingrabs.

I personally DON'T tend to switch to sheik often for this matchup because I am more comfortable playing against falco as Zelda, however, I aknowledge that sheik has the upper hand on falco in a few areas, and beats out zelda in a few against falco. Because of this, I may switch to sheik if my current oponent is playing in such a way that I feel that I can really capitalize best with my sheik.

 

[MrEh]

sheik destroys falco off the stage though.

Moot point.

Everyone does that.

Sheik does not **** Falco...

Maybe they're confusing Sheik with a character that has a clone of itself and can 0-death people with chaingrabs. That's crazy though. Such a character can't possibly exist...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Moot point.

Everyone does that.

Zelda doesn't . . .