Matchup Q&A: Ask Specific Character Matchup Questions Here

[Gadiel_VaStar]

I hate to sound like a douchebag,

but if it's something you need to be at a "higher level of play" to beat, why don't you just get better?

Also, if he's not expecting it (use it for kills) you can OOS full hop f-air him or DJ b-air him after you perfect shield one of his d-airs.
If you are able to shield GSL, that means you're shielding there.
If you shield the first hit of his d-smash, you have two options for a punish.
A) You power shielded. Dash grab WILL work as long as it's the FIRST hit of d-smash.
B) You didn't power shield. LD2 OOS and drop an IB with nana. If he doesn't jump, you get a grab.

Hey Saint, I love reading your posts. How did you get such a formulated mindset regarding options and whatnot? How can I get better @ thinking about such things, just like you explained here about what to do vs MK's dsmash?

 

[DeLux]

You can't LD2 OOS in the context you're thinking. LD2 OOS ends up being just a standard SND.

You can LD1 OOS though :D

 

[-LzR-]

So according to MK boards, Dsmash is on shield:
Shield advantage front: -25
Shield drop advantage front: -18

So I have 18 frames after dropping my shield to SND into an IB and then follow with a grab or is the timing really really tight? Against me Dsmash is a free get out of jail card. Especially when mixed up with a GSL.

 

[DeLux]

You shouldn't be desyncing that close to MK

One way ticket to getting juggled with Nana's departing flight destined for the blast zone

I think Ice Shots hitbox is out on Frame 17 and combine that with the 22 frames you'd have to wait for Nana to finish her Dash animation when desyncing from that LD2 esque desync from OOS at that range, sounds like a terrible option to me.

 

[-LzR-]

So in that case I should just not do anything about it?
Another thing, how do I avoid being poked by MK? Half of his moveset just rips my shield apart so that only popo or nana gets poked = separated = dead.
Even a braindead MK can beat my Icies, but I don't have much problems with other character. I know fair can grabbed but people don't really use it, they decided to jump and dair instead and that has so far been a winner.

 

[DeLux]

Most MKs will try to nado you when your shield is low. So you can bait that tactic and try to clip him with a SH/FH blizzard. Then most MKs will accidentally drill rush because they are hitting B to keep tornado going.

Then they have all the lag

 

[-LzR-]

That is true. I'll just have to keep doing this. It's just such a hard MU and I feel that it's at least -2 in MKs favor. Would you say G&W is a more solid choice or is ICs the ****?

 

[DeLux]

If you feel that strongly the character is the issue and not your use of the character, why not just pick up MK for an even MU?

 

[dettadeus]

Doesn't Vinnie jump offstage then airdodge back on to deal with tornado? I saw him do that a couple of times on the SRT stream.
I also saw him pivot grab it but I'm pretty sure that's just a Vinnie thing.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Doesn't Vinnie jump offstage then airdodge back on to deal with tornado? I saw him do that a couple of times on the SRT stream.
I also saw him pivot grab it but I'm pretty sure that's just a Vinnie thing.

Jumping off stage and airdodging back isnt actually a safe option since you can get trapped in nado every time.

We've known you could pivot grab low nados since the dawn of space and time.

@Lzr I still hate GW MK matchup fiercely. If you don't have confidence in yourself you most likely won't do well with Ice Climbers; They are the most emotional character in the game.

 

[-LzR-]

@DeLux: Most of my Brawl career, I have been a MK main. I have a huge mental block against the ditto and for that I will instead pick another character for the MU. So far I've had the best success with G&W, but ICs sound far better. I am willing to work hard and not give, my posts here are not whining, it's some real motivation to get better and kick some MK ***.

 

[TheSaintKai]

@Lux: What do you think would be the best option there then?
You shielded first hit D-smash NORMALLY.
Eighteen frames after shield drop. With shield push considered, do we have time to REALLY punish?
If not, I suppose it will be reset into neutral, minus the stage you lost from the shield push.

@Gadiel: For starters, thanks for the indirect compliment, it means a lot. I've been lurking for a LONG time, just trying to memorize as many options as people have listed on these forums.
It also helps that I have a great understanding of my character, though not as precisely as Lux does. I hope to one day know as much as he does.

To answer your question about how to get better, I wasn't able to fully understand all of my options until I understood both mine and my opponent's characters. It's a matter of understanding all the possible outcomes of a particular defensive position (in this case, he asked about punishing dairs, so the obvious punish would be an aerial since most MK's jump as they dair, and he was also asking about options from shielding dsmash or GSL) and what your character can do before their character can recover.

I hope this makes sense, I've never had someone ask me something like this before.

 

[-LzR-]

Which means dsmash is pretty goddamn stupid in this MU.

 

[DeLux]

@DeLux: Most of my Brawl career, I have been a MK main. I have a huge mental block against the ditto and for that I will instead pick another character for the MU. So far I've had the best success with G&W, but ICs sound far better. I am willing to work hard and not give, my posts here are not whining, it's some real motivation to get better and kick some MK ***.

Oh I didn't think you were whining. It's MK. It's not meant to be easy. If it were easy ICs would be the best characters in the game. You're just going to have to consciously start understanding situations and trying many different ways to solve them. The MU is pretty high risk against medium reward for the most part, which is why many IC players struggle with it since they are used to medium risk against high reward dynamics.

@Lux: What do you think would be the best option there then?
You shielded first hit D-smash NORMALLY.
Eighteen frames after shield drop. With shield push considered, do we have time to REALLY punish?
If not, I suppose it will be reset into neutral, minus the stage you lost from the shield push.

Depending on spacing, I would dash grab out of shield. Otherwise I personally would reset space to put out a blizzard grab setup for safety wall. Other ICs would close the gap by walking and try to make a read on the next Option MK throws out.

 

[TheSaintKai]

Which means dsmash is pretty goddamn stupid in every MU.

Yo' I fixed your post.
Honestly bro, MK is really gay.
Like REALLY REALLY ****ing gay.

I sincerely feel like 90% of my wins against competent MKs are gimmicky.

If you want real advice, you've got to learn to beat Mach tornado. If you can force him to use it less, you can actually punish him just d-airing. Used properly, Mach Tornado is MUCH harder to beat.

 

[-LzR-]

Thanks guys. You are helping and motivating me. Perhaps it's not yet the time to give up Icies, but this is just another giant step to take to start kicking some ***.

 

[theunabletable]

So... Snake matchup?

Why's it better now than it was a few years ago? What positions should I put him in? What should I do and look for at the neutral position? What do I do about his grenades?

Anything about this matchup, really. I used to play ICs when everyone told me (and it always felt like) the matchup was really awful, but I'm picking them up as my main now, and it seems like it's an even matchup, or ICs favor nowadays from looking at results and stuff. And maybe videos of it played well, too?

Thanks in advance c:

 

[Host Change]

I just decided to start trying to play IC's and I have a couple of questions.

Does the forward throw chain grab work on Pikachu?

Does chain grab selection make a difference in an opponents ability to mash out of a grab under the assumption you are properly grabbing them?

 

[| Big D |]

The fthrow CG works on every character, I personally fthrow Pikachu so I'd recommend that.

As for cgs and mashing, the only time they will be able to mash is if you delay between throws. If you decide you want to bthrow with Popo, then at low percents they can mash out. You can remedy this by bthrowing with Nana at low percents instead.

The best way to turn around at low percents is popo dthrow > nana bthrow. As Popo fthrow to nana bthrow requires a little time in which they can mash.

 

[DeLux]

So... Snake matchup?

Why's it better now than it was a few years ago? What positions should I put him in? What should I do and look for at the neutral position? What do I do about his grenades?

Anything about this matchup, really. I used to play ICs when everyone told me (and it always felt like) the matchup was really awful, but I'm picking them up as my main now, and it seems like it's an even matchup, or ICs favor nowadays from looking at results and stuff. And maybe videos of it played well, too?

Thanks in advance c:

Try not to camp too far away from snake. Generally I like to go one dash length outside of their ftilt length.

If you can get in that range, nades are not an issue since you can desync Ice shot to mess with cooking and even explode them giving you stage control.

Learn how to space Uair so you don't explode nade pulls in the air. If you space blizzard just outside his ftilt range, you can trap him in shield and if he tries to throw a nade it'll explode on him without hitting you. Never approach without a desynced projectile covering you in my opinion.

I made a thread recently about port priority. Learn how to CG around nades (via picking them and throwing them away AND moving the CG via Dthrow/pivot grabs etc.)

PLAY WITH PRECISION. If you play Sloppy, you will get pooped on. But if you have superb command of the character it's pretty even.

The fthrow CG works on every character, I personally fthrow Pikachu so I'd recommend that.

Good luck trying to fthrow string Lucas consistently :D

 

[Host Change]

Allright thanks. I just started practicing the character but I'm getting pretty good at the fthrow chaingrab on Marth so I'll start working on Pikachu next. Those are two of my most frustrating matchups in the game right now anyway...

 

[TheSaintKai]

Allright thanks. I just started practicing the character but I'm getting pretty good at the fthrow chaingrab on Marth so I'll start working on Pikachu next. Those are two of my most frustrating matchups in the game right now anyway...

Talking about C@m and Sp@d3?
Yo, sp@d3 can be beaten if you learn to punish his Dancing Blade habit. He falls back on it too much.
C@m's a bit harder, but for Pika, first learn to punish his T-jolts. Once he realizes he can't camp very effectively if you sit at mid range, he'll approach you. Just don't let him grab you, Pika's b-throw separates efficiently and Pika can very quickly end Nana.

 

[dettadeus]

Should I be using Blizzard (desynced, obvs) at all in the Snake MU? Every time I desync into it, a grenade almost immediately blows up in my face.
Are there just really specific situations where it's useful, or should I avoid using it? (Also, is desynced SH retreating Blizzard generally safe from nades?)

 

[DeLux]

In order in my opinion:

Yes
If it's blowing up in your face, you are using it too far away
Use it just outside of ftilt range and it will blow up on him and not you
It's not

 

[BJN39]

Question:

What do the IC mains/decent players think the Zelda MU is, and what is your reasoning?

 

[| Big D |]

I actually play against Zelda a lot. I think it's a large advantage.

As long as you stay synced, there isn't a lot Zelda can do.

If you stay grounded, it completely shuts her down. We can run > shield any thing she does and shield grab. She can't run, very easy to juggle.

Din's can be a problem at first. Just shield it and try and camp one dash length away from Zelda. If you stay in that zone, we can run shield her smashes and she cannot dins you.

Also one helpful thing is ISSDI. Basically it's just shield and hit the c stick in the direction of the opponent when they are attacking your shield. It works really well vs Zelda since he main method of zoning his fsmash.

 

[BJN39]

I actually play against Zelda a lot. I think it's a large advantage.

As long as you stay synced, there isn't a lot Zelda can do.

If you stay grounded, it completely shuts her down. We can run > shield any thing she does and shield grab. She can't run, very easy to juggle.

Din's can be a problem at first. Just shield it and try and camp one dash length away from Zelda. If you stay in that zone, we can run shield her smashes and she cannot dins you.

Also one helpful thing is ISSDI. Basically it's just shield and hit the c stick in the direction of the opponent when they are attacking your shield. It works really well vs Zelda since he main method of zoning his fsmash.

Thanks! Also, what numbers do you think the MU are? (??:?? / ±0)

 

[| Big D |]

I'd say +2. It's a large advantage but she can do quite a lot of damage once separated and can force approaches with Dins as well as disrupt any desycnc set ups or recovery.

 

[DeLux]

+3 (maybe +4)
Her landing options are terrible
Her ground zoning is terrible
Her camp game is terrible
Her recovery is terrible

She can bait overcommitting and punish that pretty hard. That's about it.

 

[B0NK]

I'd say Zelda is 70:30 ICs, or +3

I reserved the +4 spot for Ganon and Bowser personally lol

The only characters that do worst against IC's than Zelda is CF, Link, Bowser, and Ganon imo, and Link is probably debatable xD;

 

[-LzR-]

I've gotten over Marth. About time. I can deal with it now.
Now the problem happens to be Meta Knight.
I can't beat even a bad Meta Knight. I happened to lose to a low level MK on last tourney, then picked G&W and destroyed him brutally. Somehow ICs vs MK is not a cool MU for a middle level player.
The MKs I play just jump dair, jump dair, jump dair, jump dair and nado at a random point before they run out of jumps. Then if I am close they like to dsmash because I can't do **** about it since it's safe on ICs shield. Everything seems to poke right through my shield if it's even slightly damaged and a single hit can easily lead into a dead Nana without any effort or risk at all.
What makes this even harder is that everyone abuses this. Most people I play on tournaments just pick MK vs me because they know it's a free win. Doesn't matter if the MK is bad, I usually get 3 stocked, unless they **** up a lot and I get grabs, but I never get 3.
And I've played this MU quite a lot too and it's said it's not a bad MU and Vinnie is beating every MK out there as well.
I know I've already gotten awesome tips in the MU, but I cannot beat even the simplest tactics at all. With other character it's not so bad, but I'm not gonna pick a secondary for this or a secondary would be all I'm playing when everyone picks MK against me.
(No dumb whining, just really frustrated about it and how it makes me feel bad)
How do I counter dsmash and dair spam? >_>

 

[crifer]

fullhop (desynced) blizzard > dair and tornado

If you´re not able to punish a dsmash on shield with grab or whatever, retreat and do an iceblock or blizzard oos.

 

[-LzR-]

Whenever I blizzard they immediately dair me on hit. In like, after 2 hits of blizzard. As if it had no stun at all. Then I get desynched and die. I've watched a lot of videos as well and I just don't get it what I am doing so wrong.

 

[TheSaintKai]

What that guy said is wrong, Blizzard isn't a good punish for dair. It's a decent punish against Mach Tornado though. You aren't doing anything wrong that makes them able to dair you halfway through it, that happens to everyone if they are mashing dair.

D-Smash ISN'T safe on first hit, remember? We had that discussion about 15 posts back. Just power shield it and grab him.

-LzR-, if you KNOW what he's going to do in a situation, you can punish it.

****, I've punished d-smash before with SH f-air. (Might have been full hop, but I'm almost certain it was SH.) It goes right under you, and then you get a tech chase from the fair.
You want a list of things that can punish d-smash on a read?
Read him d-smashing (this only applies to first hit)
space yourself to make him whiff, walk in f-tilt
space yourself to make him whiff, walk in d-tilt
power shield, dash upsmash
in fact, power shield -> any grounded move besides belay
SH blizz/fair/nair/dair
RAR SH bair
Blizzard out ranges it
bait it, IB chaser.

What more do you want from me.

 

[C.J.]

To hand you the controller =D

 

[-LzR-]

Well sure, from a powershield, but if I don't powershield? Should I just retreat and try again?

 

[Rubberbandman]

If MK dairs and hits your shield, you can always punish with Nair/Uair. MK nado is really hard to make safe if you have enough shield to keep it from poking; you can chase it and punish accordingly.

 

[-LzR-]

ALWAYS punish? That would be nice. With Nair/Uair you mean depending on the situation or that both generally work? Should I fullhop nair?

 

[Rubberbandman]

Nair/Uair meaning depending on how he spaces himself it might be better to go with Nair; Uair is the better choice overall.

 

[-LzR-]

Well I played this MU more this weekend, kept getting bodied hard. To me it feels like DK DDD MU where you just can't do ****, but I know ICs can do it, so it makes me mad. I wasn't able to punish dairs, nado always poked, dsmash was safe and shuttle loop was the usual zero risk/kill Nana thing.