Pheta Ray
Smash Ace
By this, I assume you mean if GnW is jumping in and out with Fairs and Nairs, etc.?
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Matchup Q&A: Ask Specific Character Matchup Questions Here
- Thread starter DeLux
- Start date
Yes, fair is simply unsafe and I'm pretty sure nair can be pivot grabbed before the final hitbox. Anyways those moves can't do anything to you if you just patiently shield or walk away. He can't open you up without taking a stupid risk.
Yes, fair is simply unsafe and I'm pretty sure nair can be pivot grabbed before the final hitbox. Anyways those moves can't do anything to you if you just patiently shield or walk away. He can't open you up without taking a stupid risk.
Pheta Ray
Smash Ace
So against GnW, should I be going for resets more often than I would normally? Walk-up shield sounds like a good option, it's doesn't sound like he will run the risk of going for a grab. If he does, I'm pretty sure you can use a move before his throw ends.
Hoenn
Smash Journeyman
How do we approach falco and wolf?
I always get outcamped and get 3 stocked by both
Kain recently stepped up his camp game against ICs and I can't get in
Bair + Blaster = too strong.
As for falco, I can't catch him
I know that we are supposed to Catch the side B, but if I'm not shielding, I just take lasers to the face. For this reason, my ICs just get camped forever
I always get outcamped and get 3 stocked by both
Kain recently stepped up his camp game against ICs and I can't get in
Bair + Blaster = too strong.
As for falco, I can't catch him
I know that we are supposed to Catch the side B, but if I'm not shielding, I just take lasers to the face. For this reason, my ICs just get camped forever
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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Wolf is LITERALLY the most broken character in the game and you should just go DDD.
As for Falco, you'll probably have to be more specific. You'll have to make a phantasm read or two if they are really camping that hard (I like throwing out ice shot with nana and utilt with popo to cover), but you can pretty much shield grab every option.
As for Falco, you'll probably have to be more specific. You'll have to make a phantasm read or two if they are really camping that hard (I like throwing out ice shot with nana and utilt with popo to cover), but you can pretty much shield grab every option.
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Hoenn
Smash Journeyman
I'm having trouble at long range getting into close range
Shielding the lasers makes me commit, so he side Bs when I'm caught in shield
If I try to Ice block, He just gets me with Down B
Your Ice block Utiltl combination would cover most of his options, but should I do that at close and midrange?
Is powersheilding the lasers my best option at long range?
Shielding the lasers makes me commit, so he side Bs when I'm caught in shield
If I try to Ice block, He just gets me with Down B
Your Ice block Utiltl combination would cover most of his options, but should I do that at close and midrange?
Is powersheilding the lasers my best option at long range?
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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Neutral special is called Ice Shot.
Your best option at long range is to walk towards him so you aren't at long range. Sometimes I don't even bother shielding lasers and tapping attck or special because popo gets hit by laser, and then Nana's jab or ice shot catches Falco out of phantasm because getting hit by a laser means a free desync for you.
You should throw that out as part of sequencing desync approaches. You could also mix in Ice shot and Nair instead of chasing as well. Also throw in utilt / ice shot.
And if he's far enough away that he has shield advantage to trap you in shield with phantasm, you can just make a spot dodge or roll read.
I'm not 100% sure really what else to say about the MU because you can literally shield grab every option. I think you're overthinking the MU and if you're losing to a Falco, it probably means you're severely getting outplayed on the player level and should think about changing up your general risk/reward decision making.
Your best option at long range is to walk towards him so you aren't at long range. Sometimes I don't even bother shielding lasers and tapping attck or special because popo gets hit by laser, and then Nana's jab or ice shot catches Falco out of phantasm because getting hit by a laser means a free desync for you.
You should throw that out as part of sequencing desync approaches. You could also mix in Ice shot and Nair instead of chasing as well. Also throw in utilt / ice shot.
And if he's far enough away that he has shield advantage to trap you in shield with phantasm, you can just make a spot dodge or roll read.
I'm not 100% sure really what else to say about the MU because you can literally shield grab every option. I think you're overthinking the MU and if you're losing to a Falco, it probably means you're severely getting outplayed on the player level and should think about changing up your general risk/reward decision making.
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Hoenn
Smash Journeyman
In the MK matchup, I always see tornado eating away at people's shields.
Do people know that ICs can shield grab tornado (nana grab armors)???
Or do the top level ICs not do it because it's risky?
I mean if we all learned it, it's a free grab.
Do people know that ICs can shield grab tornado (nana grab armors)???
Or do the top level ICs not do it because it's risky?
I mean if we all learned it, it's a free grab.
Hoenn
Smash Journeyman
In every set I watch of ICs vs MK at top level, I never really see any "proper nados" they all just come from high and swoop down.
Hoenn
Smash Journeyman
You can replace the word "proper" with the word safe.
I know that the MK's avoid the pivot grab properly, but none of them are usually very careful to avoid the shield grab by staying high.
I also don't know the vertical spacing on a standing grab, but I'll give MK the benefit of the doubt and say that when it's high, it's safe.
Also wouldn't keeping it high make it harder to retreat? (Harder to retreat means easier to grab)
I know that the MK's avoid the pivot grab properly, but none of them are usually very careful to avoid the shield grab by staying high.
I also don't know the vertical spacing on a standing grab, but I'll give MK the benefit of the doubt and say that when it's high, it's safe.
Also wouldn't keeping it high make it harder to retreat? (Harder to retreat means easier to grab)
Hoenn
Smash Journeyman
I'm meaning that hitting ICs shield from high.
wouldn't that make it harder to retreat?
Or limit your ability to use it.
I see all these top level sets and nobody nados with good spacing on IC's shield.
wouldn't that make it harder to retreat?
Or limit your ability to use it.
I see all these top level sets and nobody nados with good spacing on IC's shield.
Hoenn
Smash Journeyman
Where is the grab hitbox during the first frame of it being active?
DeLux
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Hoenn
Smash Journeyman
I've looked into it and the way people are using Nado is unsafe.
The standing grab hitbox reaches pretty high.
Well, high enough to efficiently preform the shield grab.
And regardless of if it's possible to consistently Nado safely. It still gives the meta knight extra technical proficiency and gives them more room to mess up
The standing grab hitbox reaches pretty high.
Well, high enough to efficiently preform the shield grab.
And regardless of if it's possible to consistently Nado safely. It still gives the meta knight extra technical proficiency and gives them more room to mess up
Hoenn
Smash Journeyman
I went to a tournament yesterday and got like 12-20 Shield grabs on tornado.
soooo....... IDK
PKBeam
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Probably what happened is you grabbed when the nado wasn't actually in contact with your shield, and your grab went through it and you got grab armour or something.
Hoenn
Smash Journeyman
It made contact with my shield for several frames AND I got grab Armor.
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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You could be grabbing during the between the last hit and second to last hit of nado which is the only with a frame window large enough to shield grab. Alternatively, it could be a situation where you dash into the nado at a specific time where it shield lags on Nana and that let you grab armor with Popo.
Alternatively, Brawl Why?
Though I think the latter is possible if you dash dance prior to interacting with Nado to create some separation between Popo and Nana, with Popo PSing and Nana Standard Shielding the Nado hitbox.
However, if you are shield grabbing, the Nado is being done too low in the first place because standing grab and pivot grab are relatively the same height, so it would probably be a poorly spaced Nado anyways.
In regards to your situation you were talking about, there isn't a situation where a shield grab nado wouldn't be able to be grabbed by a pivot grab in terms of spacing to my knowledge.
Alternatively, Brawl Why?
Though I think the latter is possible if you dash dance prior to interacting with Nado to create some separation between Popo and Nana, with Popo PSing and Nana Standard Shielding the Nado hitbox.
However, if you are shield grabbing, the Nado is being done too low in the first place because standing grab and pivot grab are relatively the same height, so it would probably be a poorly spaced Nado anyways.
In regards to your situation you were talking about, there isn't a situation where a shield grab nado wouldn't be able to be grabbed by a pivot grab in terms of spacing to my knowledge.
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Hoenn
Smash Journeyman
There was no dash dancing, but that is interesting
@ your last statement.
As you know, when you pivot grab in reaction to a tornado, it can be baited and they can punish you for over-committing
I'd love to see a meta knight try to bait and punish my shield with a tornado.
Hoenn
Smash Journeyman
Doesn't this make baiting a pivot grab useless though?
If they are the same height, why don't we just run into it and shield grab?
If they are the same height, why don't we just run into it and shield grab?
DeLux
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Because as been stated on numerous occasions, shield grabbing tornado technically speaking shouldn't be possible from a frame data standpoint, except as noted during the frame hole between the second to last hit and the last hit (or the speculated shield grab scenario where one climber PS's and the other doesn't due to spacing).
So maybe you can bring video showing you reliably shield grabbing tornado?
So maybe you can bring video showing you reliably shield grabbing tornado?
Hoenn
Smash Journeyman
http://youtu.be/ocmITUvshII?t=9m52s
I did like 2 others, but they were both offstream.
That one was weird because though because Popo got the grab.
It made contact with my shield for around 1 frame.
I got one on stream where it was touching my shield for a lot longer though, but I'm having trouble finding it. (I didn't grab the last hit, it was a middle it)
I will find it though
I did like 2 others, but they were both offstream.
That one was weird because though because Popo got the grab.
It made contact with my shield for around 1 frame.
I got one on stream where it was touching my shield for a lot longer though, but I'm having trouble finding it. (I didn't grab the last hit, it was a middle it)
I will find it though
DeLux
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You aren't seeing in the video in question that the scenario where it shield lags on Nana after hitting Popo (or the reverse since you're using the ugly white climbers) on a poorly spaced nado occurred to give you the grab like I mentioned already?
As I mentioned, I've seen/done the phenomenon and speculated as to how it occurs. The video helps confirm my suspicions that Mach Tornado is the best projectile in the game
The pros of pivot grab as opposed to the incidental semi-separated ICs shield grab:
- Pivot grab flat out out ranges tornado in horizontal disjoint while retaining the same vertical height as standing (shield) grab (meaning metaknight can't do the onshield mixups)*
- Consistent setup (ie dashing away) rather than incidental setup (to semi separate climbers)
- Retreating slide away during pivot grab
- Not dependent on shield health
Pros on shield grab-
- Less startup comparison to pivot grab
- More well documented and therefore more well known**
- Possibility it's not dependent on the semi separation (unlikely but until I see video otherwise I speculate it's not the case) because if it is, it would be the superior/another option since it would allow the player to be more aggressive into nado
*I think this is the biggest advantage by far
**being huge since I love me some gimmicks
Keep the video coming, we can finally figure it out!
As I mentioned, I've seen/done the phenomenon and speculated as to how it occurs. The video helps confirm my suspicions that Mach Tornado is the best projectile in the game
The pros of pivot grab as opposed to the incidental semi-separated ICs shield grab:
- Pivot grab flat out out ranges tornado in horizontal disjoint while retaining the same vertical height as standing (shield) grab (meaning metaknight can't do the onshield mixups)*
- Consistent setup (ie dashing away) rather than incidental setup (to semi separate climbers)
- Retreating slide away during pivot grab
- Not dependent on shield health
Pros on shield grab-
- Less startup comparison to pivot grab
- More well documented and therefore more well known**
- Possibility it's not dependent on the semi separation (unlikely but until I see video otherwise I speculate it's not the case) because if it is, it would be the superior/another option since it would allow the player to be more aggressive into nado
*I think this is the biggest advantage by far
**being huge since I love me some gimmicks
Keep the video coming, we can finally figure it out!
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Hoenn
Smash Journeyman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ7ueeGGVW8&feature=youtu.be
2 examples that I just threw together.
One of these is a PSC grab, I just realized that, but the other isn't\
Edit: I've done my testing and it appears that you can shield grab the tornado as long as it is right in front of your shield.
It may not be possible if your shield hits the center of the tornado, but it is easily grabbable
UMMMMMMM... I was playing around with SOPO and shield grabbed a tornado!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I got it 2x!!!!!!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bogy-TDeo1s&feature=youtu.be
2 examples that I just threw together.
One of these is a PSC grab, I just realized that, but the other isn't\
Edit: I've done my testing and it appears that you can shield grab the tornado as long as it is right in front of your shield.
It may not be possible if your shield hits the center of the tornado, but it is easily grabbable
UMMMMMMM... I was playing around with SOPO and shield grabbed a tornado!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I got it 2x!!!!!!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bogy-TDeo1s&feature=youtu.be
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DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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Another question from your video:
How are you testing? Is your testing partner also hitting special button as they nado?
The hitboxes on tornado come out faster as you hit the special button. I notice you grab armor the hitboxes, which could plausibly be explained by you not hitting the special button. I also notice you grab towards the end of the nado in the video. It could be explained by the frame hole as well. Both of those already are documented as an issue limiting the viability of shield grab (since an MK can control when the last hit comes as well as uses special button to control height so nado is lagless)
I appreciate the efforts and hate being the constant naysayer. Just trying to make sure we understand the mechanics before advocating a drastic shift in understanding the mechanics of nado.
It could also have something to do with the nado being grounded? Doubtful, but possible. I seem to remember the older video not having nado super low so that might not be it.
How are you testing? Is your testing partner also hitting special button as they nado?
The hitboxes on tornado come out faster as you hit the special button. I notice you grab armor the hitboxes, which could plausibly be explained by you not hitting the special button. I also notice you grab towards the end of the nado in the video. It could be explained by the frame hole as well. Both of those already are documented as an issue limiting the viability of shield grab (since an MK can control when the last hit comes as well as uses special button to control height so nado is lagless)
I appreciate the efforts and hate being the constant naysayer. Just trying to make sure we understand the mechanics before advocating a drastic shift in understanding the mechanics of nado.
It could also have something to do with the nado being grounded? Doubtful, but possible. I seem to remember the older video not having nado super low so that might not be it.
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Hoenn
Smash Journeyman
I just tested it with pressing the B button fast enough to stay in grab range.
I still got it.
I still got it.
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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With Sopo? Video please
Account for staleness too, because I've been doing some research on past posts on nado and someone mentioned the speed of the hitboxes repeating is also dependent on how fresh/stale the move is!
Account for staleness too, because I've been doing some research on past posts on nado and someone mentioned the speed of the hitboxes repeating is also dependent on how fresh/stale the move is!
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Hoenn
Smash Journeyman
I wasn't referring to Sopo, but I just tried to do it with sopo in training room on a tornado with B being pressed really fast and I got it.With Sopo? Video please
Account for staleness too, because I've been doing some research on past posts on nado and someone mentioned the speed of the hitboxes repeating is also dependent on how fresh/stale the move is!
I am making these by myself controlling both characters... so training mode will be a challenge to make sure it is fresh,but I will try.
I'll work on getting a video of that up
Here is a video that is factoring everything you mentioned except the staling thing (Which I doubt actually think affects anything considering it would be the only move whose hitboxes are slowed down due to staling in all of brawl, but I guess it's worth testing)
http://youtu.be/IveY2mopxao
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DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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Huh weird. I wonder why it works that way. Probably have to reexamine the frame data on Nado is what it means.
It's an improvement, but I'm not sure what the implications it would have on the MU given that most MKs space nado at the top to avoid pivot grab and to increase chances of shield poking. The other limiting factor is that the hitbox on nado is more disjointed than standing grab from what I can tell (although not 100% sure on that since admittedly I didn't do much testing based on spacing since I assumed it was due to multihitting shields with same nado hitbox due to semi separation, more like 90% confident that's the case).
Definitely helpful at the lower levels for sure though where the MK doesn't have decent to immaculate nado spacing!
Solid work, I don't have anything I can think of that might be a red flag at this point!
It's an improvement, but I'm not sure what the implications it would have on the MU given that most MKs space nado at the top to avoid pivot grab and to increase chances of shield poking. The other limiting factor is that the hitbox on nado is more disjointed than standing grab from what I can tell (although not 100% sure on that since admittedly I didn't do much testing based on spacing since I assumed it was due to multihitting shields with same nado hitbox due to semi separation, more like 90% confident that's the case).
Definitely helpful at the lower levels for sure though where the MK doesn't have decent to immaculate nado spacing!
Solid work, I don't have anything I can think of that might be a red flag at this point!
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Hoenn
Smash Journeyman
What's the ike matchup? The OP says that we should be using ice blocks and it'll work if I "know how to use it"I don't know how to use it I just took a bunch of powershields and fairs. Also I have no clue what to do about Nair and jab
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