Matchup Q&A: Ask Specific Character Matchup Questions Here

[stewyian]

Shuttle loop shouldn't be that safe against ics, at least grounded

 

[-LzR-]

Grounded isn't, aerial is. If there are platforms he can do that instant drop thing to make it completely lagless. It's kinda ********.

 

[TheSaintKai]

Grounded isn't, aerial is. If there are platforms he can do that instant drop thing to make it completely lagless. It's kinda ********.

If you react quickly enough, I am literally almost certain you get an U-air or N-air unless he escapes to the top platform of Battlefield.

 

[-LzR-]

I'm talking about aerial shuttle loop here. It can be canceled instantly and appears to be safe even on whiff when done correctly. I haven't been able to punish it at all and if it hits, it's a potential stock.

 

[TheSaintKai]

I'm talking about aerial shuttle loop here. It can be canceled instantly and appears to be safe even on whiff when done correctly. I haven't been able to punish it at all and if it hits, it's a potential stock.

Oh. Um, punishing that is very situational, and requires him to whiff. It's one of the safest move for him, but only if we're in the air.

 

[-LzR-]

I just don't see how this MU can be winnable. How come Vinnie doesn't get shieldpoked, shuttle looped to death, easily separated and gets grabs? o_o
I feel like I should just go for a secondary.

 

[dettadeus]

I just don't see how this MU can be winnable. How come Vinnie doesn't get shieldpoked, shuttle looped to death, easily separated and gets grabs? o_o
I feel like I should just go for a secondary.

Probably because he has more experience vs MK than just about any other Icies player posting around here.

 

[-LzR-]

Yes, but what is he doing right or the MK player wrong in those matches? I don't see how ICs can deal with most of MKs options at all. MK has to make a pretty big mistake in order to get grabbed as he always has another option in most situations.

 

[TheSaintKai]

I just don't see how this MU can be winnable. How come Vinnie doesn't get shieldpoked, shuttle looped to death, easily separated and gets grabs? o_o
I feel like I should just go for a secondary.

Shield poked: He doesn't let nado run his shield down. He walks away from nado, power shielding at the last minute and if he gets caught in shield, he spotdodges the end of nado or rolls away.

Shuttle looped: He isn't ever in the air above Meta Knight. Don't be baited into jumping past him.

Easily separated: If you're getting EASILY separated without nado, it's probably d-air. Just power shield it. Not hard.

Gets grabs: He's good at gimmicks, good at reads, and good at this game.

 

[-LzR-]

Thing is, even the slightest mistake in this MU will lead into an easy kill for MK. It's so dumb. But I'll try to do those things Vinnie does next time. It's not fun playing ICs when even a bad player can just pick MK and win.

 

[stewyian]

So I have been struggling with the diddy matchup recently, one of my good friends plays a diddy and I have been playing alot with zinoto who is obv. pretty good, but im not sure exactly how to play the matchup entirely, if i camp with ice blocks he can just go onto a platform and toss bannas at me from above, and apporaching diddy just seems to not work becuz he is soo good at seperating us, im just not sure how to go about the machup

 

[dettadeus]

Thing is, even the slightest mistake in this MU will lead into an easy kill for MK. It's so dumb.

If the MK makes a mistake and we get a grab, it leads to an easy kill for Icies. The matchup is dumb both ways. Icies are just about as dumb a character as MK is so we don't really have that much of a right to complain, regardless of the fact that Icies take significantly more work than MK.

I've heard two summaries for this matchup that describe it really well IMO:
1. Either the Icies gets 3-stocked or the MK gets 3-stocked (IIRC from a set between Vinnie and Nairo, where the first two games were Nairo 3-stocking Vinnie and Vinnie reverse 3-stocking Nairo)
2. The percents aren't counted at all in this matchup; only the stocks. MK could be at 100% with the Climbers at 0% and MK could separate them and gimp both and then suddenly it would be in MK's favor. Or, the Icies could be at 100% and MK could be at 0% and the Icies get a grab and the MK loses a stock. (from Japanese commentary on SRT stream during Vinnie vs Rain GFs)

It's not fun playing ICs when even a bad player can just pick MK and win.

If they're a bad player they're going to make dumb mistakes that good MKs wouldn't do, and you have to capitalize on this. I don't lose to random MKs anymore with Icies. I've only recently lost to people who actually played MK when he was legal in my region, and even then I go back and forth with them and the matches are generally close.

If all else fails, just play gayer than your opponent.

To add onto this, I've stopped complaining about high-tier matchups in general since I picked up Icies because I feel like I no longer have a right to complain about dumb stuff other characters do when my character arguably has some of the dumbest stuff on the roster. The time I spend complaining would be better spent getting better at the matchup.

 

[DeLux]

Everyone in your region that played MK when he was legal is by definition a random MK >_>

 

[dettadeus]

Lux stop raining on my parade ; -;

let me feel like i'm a good player for once

wait fishbait wasn't a random mk way back at like genesis 2 or something

i remember people talking about him taking games/sets off a lot of notable players

although I haven't played Fishbait's MK and obviously it's a bit rusty since MK's been banned for nearly a year but yeah

 

[DeLux]

I meant more to the fact that I would guess your only MU experience is that of playing against MK's that lose to random IC gimmick circa 2009 based on the videos I've seen.

So while your opinion at the beginning with the points might have some validity (I know M2k believes that's the case for the MU having talked to him about it extensively), I'm more inclined to believe that the MK MU when played against someone with proficiency to talent in the MU using MK takes the tightness of game and precision that only two ICs in the country currently have.

The next tier of ICs have shown it on occasion, but it doesn't mean that even in the hands of a less skilled player, the mistakes of an MK aren't hard to punish via grab. It's a very difficult matchup. I don't know how much of disadvantage there is if there is one, but it takes a lot of skills not many ICs possess.



Note on Fishbait: Let me know how you do against his MK. I think he'd admit he's not very good at the MU with MK. At least that's what he said when he played me lol

 

[dettadeus]

If Fish actually came to my smashfests instead of going back to his parents' house every weekend then maybe I'd get a chance to play his MK :T

I think the biggest issue with Colorado vs Icies is that I'm really the first CO player to actually start maining Icies (unless there was some guy back in like 08/09 that I haven't heard of and who obviously didn't teach anyone anything about the matchup) so a lot of people are getting caught with the dumb gimmicks like desync IB > grab and other junk like that.

The more I take advantage of it, the more people will learn how to deal with it, especially if I actually tell them how to avoid the gimmicks.
Until people can get better at the matchup I'll just have fun beating people in our MK banned tournaments though. And maybe MK-legal too once I play against some of the better MKs around here.

Also do you have any critique for my videos vs Dave! while you're here? Mostly vs G&W (games 1+2, game 3 I 3-stocked him lol) but also maybe vs his MK (game 4 + game 5)

 

[DeLux]

How hard is it to avoid the gimmick, just tell them to jump?

Wait, I'll do it for you

 

[TheSaintKai]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdtsywoSY7U
A full critique for whomever has the time would be greatly appreciated.
In addition, what tools do we use to beat ourselves?

 

[DeLux]

If you're the more experienced IC main (IE IC playing against a pocket IC), strike to the jankiest stage as possible. FD is the worst one you can go to.

Jab is extremely good as a punishing option. Don't throw out a billion smash attacks. Blizzard wall under a platform to X anti air option is pretty hard for people to break if they don't know how to. Squall is a lie and everything goes through it. Don't grab unless you know you can pummel the other climber, and then use Fthrow or Uthrow since they have hitboxes on them.

 

[| Big D |]

Our region uses the Apex rule set and when I play MK, I generally strike YI and LC and the MK typically goes SV or BF depending on what they are more comfortable with. Now some MKs are good on BF and some on SV.

I guess what I'm asking is would it be worth my while to strike the stage they are good on and keep YI?

Is YI good vs MK compared to the other stages and if so what should I keep in mind while playing on that stage.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

How does IC even defend vs projectile spam and long range like Marth? There really isn't a foward hitting move that comes out quick and I get punished for using blizzard. I try to shield projectile spam but ICe shield gets to small and poaked. I don't know how to stopthose two things atm. Advice anyone?

@BigD. Try to pick the stages your best at and either practice more on YI/Lylat or ban both. Strike stages you know the opponent is comfortable @ but you wouldn't know unless you've played them b4 or know from videos. Are you going to Apex?

 

[| Big D |]

I wish I was going to Apex but I got a job now so I can go to another national.

As for projectiles, this technique is useful.

All I can really say vs Marth is to stay grounded.

 

[-LzR-]

Going to Norway for a tournament this weekend. Will be using mostly ICs/GW.
I attract a lot of pocket MKs because of my Icies and I have a bad record against them. What kind of tricks do pocket MKs usually fall for? What do they lack that real MKs have to make me able to abuse them? Should I play more campy and make them approach me? Most people just assume the jump -> dair -> jump dair -> repeat forever tactic and then random stuff between them. If only I could beat pocket MKs I could be a good IC

 

[| Big D |]

The most common trick that works on pocket ICs is the fact that most pockets will always spotdodge after landing with nado.

 

[DeLux]

The will also Dair into the ground on accident.

A lot

 

[-LzR-]

Hmm yeah that's true. Should net me simple kills if I can focus... I tend to get really careless against MK. I'm such a mental player. I need to get rid of this mindset, it's not cool for ICs :s

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

I wish I was going to Apex but I got a job now so I can go to another national.

As for projectiles, this technique is useful.

All I can really say vs Marth is to stay grounded.

I watched that before. I can't say I've learned it yet, but dsynchs are on my list to learn for this week. But they threw projectiles like TLs bomb between my baby dsync game. And they went through Ice Block. So how does IC defend against projectiles that go through Ic Block?

 

[| Big D |]

Sorry bro I haven't played a competent Toon Link.

Best I can offer is a vid of the mu being played.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Peach was a little rough on wifi last night. What should ICs do vs her dair? That move was eating me alive. Also, what do you do vs her neutral where she's floating around and getting ready to space you w/ her aerials?

And the more I think about it, ICs are a simplistic character, and they aren't that hard to learn once you get past the barrier of entry(cgs, desycns). I haven't learned all my CGs yet, but they're slowly improving. And that desycn guide that Big D made is also a big help. I'm learning the 2 dash desync. That's all Kakera ever used back in the day if you check it his old videos. I think he slowly added squall desyncs and some more, but I'm actually excited about my ICs now and their future.

 

[Twigz]

Should you play passive or aggressive vs falco? And what options do u have if he camps with lasers?

 

[TheSaintKai]

Should you play passive or aggressive vs falco? And what options do u have if he camps with lasers?

You're asking the wrong questions, you should adapt your playstyle to fit your opponent's. A better question would be what moves are good in the Falco MU, and what can we do to trap him into a grab?

U-tilt his phantasm, it will clash and he'll fall right in front of you, easy grab.
force him offstage or to the edge and learn his phantasm habits, punish accordingly.
Ice Shot is good at catching his landing if you can desync quickly.

 

[DeLux]

And the more I think about it, ICs are a simplistic character, and they aren't that hard to learn once you get past the barrier of entry(cgs, desycns). I haven't learned all my CGs yet, but they're slowly improving. And that desycn guide that Big D made is also a big help. I'm learning the 2 dash desync. That's all Kakera ever used back in the day if you check it his old videos. I think he slowly added squall desyncs and some more, but I'm actually excited about my ICs now and their future.

That's why it's typically called "the Kakera desync".

 

[| Big D |]

When editing my guide I had the video clip labeled "Kakera Antics"

 

[-LzR-]

I need advice against Snake.
How do I deal with Ftilt? It seems like a very safe option. If it isnt powershielded or very badly spaced should I just roll away? And how much time is there to punish him? It seems to be very lagless for some reason, am I just too scared? Then how to deal with Snakes who like to spam tilts way too much? Is there an easy way to deal with this?

 

[C.J.]

IIRC, Snake's ftilt2 is something around -21 on shield. -14 after shield drop. I don't know all IC's frame data off the top of my head, but it seems like you should be able to get DA (frame 10ish?) for sure. Depending on spacing, maybe a dash->usmash (usmash is like frame 11 right?). If it's terribly spaced (in which case I'd hope the Snake would stop after ftilt1), then it should be a grab.

 

[DeLux]

If you're getting zoned by Ftilt, you are playing too close to snake. Play an ftilt + dash length away from snake and bait the ftilt. Then ISSDI grab him and win.

 

[-LzR-]

So you mean I should be a dash length away from where his ftilt would hit? That makes it hard for Snake to do stuff? I mean if I shield the Ftilt2 and try to dashgrab, usmash or something, he can always spotdodge or roll before I reach him. And if I try to wait out the spotdodge he could do it again or uptilt D:

 

[Rubberbandman]

So you mean I should be a dash length away from where his ftilt would hit? That makes it hard for Snake to do stuff? I mean if I shield the Ftilt2 and try to dashgrab, usmash or something, he can always spotdodge or roll before I reach him. And if I try to wait out the spotdodge he could do it again or uptilt D:

Then you aren't a good reacter and shouldn't be trying to punish it. Instead, stay out of dash length and desynch Ice block to force him into doing something more your speed to punish.

 

[TheSaintKai]

And if I try to wait out the spotdodge he could do it again or uptilt D:

This can be corrected by being better at grabbing someone out of the end of their spotdodge.
Alternatively, correct this by running through him as he sidesteps and pivot grabbing him.
That isn't very safe though, which is why I've begun sliding to a stop with shield in front of him. if he f-tilt 1s me, i grab, if he sidesteps, i grab him, if he rolls away he loses stage, if he rolls through i roll forward, thus reseting.

 

[MAOMAO!]

I saw someone ask about Peach earlier. I would really appreciate some help on that MU as well. Specifically...her dair and other spacing tools she uses. Not very used to playing Peaches in my region.

Please and thank you.