MATCH UPS....throw anything you got.....

[Kinzer]

Which reminds me, have you seen the pic the Ike boards use for Peach?

But good point on the Marth boards, Kinzer.

It will make you think...and thank you Hero!

Ike's air game has much, much more reach than mario's in all directions. bair comes out lightning fast, nair covers all of MARTH?, u-air... yea if it hits its strong, fair has good knockback, dair is meteor/spike whatever it is .

Bair is okay...Nair does make a shield and autocancels...Uair is only good if Mario is above Ike and messes up on trying to get below him during the Uair... and Dair is unuseable on Mario, he has many answers to Dairs.

 

[Jim Morrison]

LMAO i said marth? anyhow, it was worth a shot.

 

[HeroMystic]

Ike's air game has much, much more reach than mario's in all directions. bair comes out lightning fast, nair covers all of marth, u-air... yea if it hits its strong, fair has good knockback, dair is meteor/spike whatever it is .

Keep in mind range is not everything. You also have to consider speed, spacing, and aerial mobility.

Rainbow Cruise forces you to be in the air. There are tons of platforms, and you cannot stay in one place for a long time (which makes edgeguarding minimal).

If everything was about power, then DK, Snake, Ganondorf, and Ike would all be god tier, but they're not.

The main misconception is that since Ike is powerful, he can wreck all of the characters that doesn't have an obvious trump. This is however not true. If the opponent (especially one like a speed/combo character) is weary and intelligent (for example, he knows how to dodge), then that opponent is very capable of beating Ike, especially in the air because all Ike really has in the air is range and power.

Not to mention, Rainbow Cruise gives Mario tons of opportunities to aerial combo Ike and gimp him due to his rather poor recovery, which is why it's a great counterpick stage against him for Mario (and a few others).

 

[Jim Morrison]

fair play to you. you win this one by a long post

 

[Matt07]

Ike fights for his friends, Mario fights for no one.

 

[Matador]

And I loved the Lucario board claims. I think 9:1 was posted a few times.

They lost all their credibility with that one. I thought that was fairly close to insane

I'm rather disheartened by the few Ike people agreeing on 45:55. I mean, I know Kinzer and Xace will agree to anything you guys say...but...

Oh well, write whatever you choose for your match-up ratio, 55, 45, 50. It's all near neutral anyways.

The match is even for the most part. We have options, you have options. Your gameplan works just as well as ours with yours being better about spacing and ours being about approach options/combo consistentcy.

The thing that tips the scales in Mario's favor, imo, is the Fludd gimp. It works so well that it's odd to not get at least one per match. In my matches vs Rykoshet, I didn't know how to do the Fludd gimp until the last few. They were completely neck and neck before then. Afterwards, it pretty much stayed the same, but having that in my back pocket made the matches feel safer for me since I had such a powerful tool in my arsenal.

I don't want to just be "handed" the adv like charity or something, I figured that was enough 55:45 as opposed to dead even. Of course, I could be wrong. Just my thoughts.

 

[YagamiLight]

They lost all their credibility with that one. I thought that was fairly close to insane

The match is even for the most part. We have options, you have options. Your gameplan works just as well as ours with yours being better about spacing and ours being about approach options/combo consistentcy.

The thing that tips the scales in Mario's favor, imo, is the Fludd gimp. It works so well that it's odd to not get at least one per match. In my matches vs Rykoshet, I didn't know how to do the Fludd gimp until the last few. They were completely neck and neck before then. Afterwards, it pretty much stayed the same, but having that in my back pocket made the matches feel safer for me since I had such a powerful tool in my arsenal.

I don't want to just be "handed" the adv like charity or something, I figured that was enough 55:45 as opposed to dead even. Of course, I could be wrong. Just my thoughts.

Basically, my opinion on FLUDD is that it's deadly and it never hurts to have it charged in case Ike gets aggressive while recovering, but he can always go low if he wants to. I don't consider it a gigantic part of the match, just a part of Mario's good gimp game, though not as good as the cape.

The reason for my 55 Ike's favor earlier was that the Fair is REALLY good and really puts Mario's aerial options in a tough spot. The main fact that the Jab generally beats out Mario's ground game and the Fair generally beats the air game is rather important. Of course, it's not absolute domination, but I'd have to hand those games to Ike if he manages spacing. Mario clearly wins out off stage, however. It just has so many different factors that I don't want to hand anyone an advantage, I'm sure you understand.

 

[XACE-K]

XACE-K's and BO X7's post were just epic. We should hang out more like this!

Thanks. :D

Ike fights for his friends, Mario fights for no one.

Mario fights for his moustache.

 

[Matador]

Light's post

I need to do some testing, but if Fludd works the way I'm remembering it does (I can't even SCROLL over Ike anymore on my Brawl. That or watch replays with Ike in them.) then going low won't help. I definitely need to test it. Until then, I can settle for even since my reasoning for adv Mario was that the Fludd gimps him easily.

 

[hippiedude92]

godamit, mario boards already done with ike =[ the discussion looked like it went smoothly and fast too surprisely lol. so whats next for matchup?

 

[Mario_ 101]

Ike's recovery does not get destroyed by Mario!! It gets destroyed by everyone...

Mario can't camp Ike, fireballs are not camping material.

Ike is playing stupid if he lets you see his attacks coming.

And Boozer gets combo'd better than Ike, Ike is skinny.

ike isn't very nimble. he can't get around fireballs if they're well shot. and if he does mario can rush in and punish him.

ike's attacks are almost all EASILY seen coming.

yes boozer gets comboed more but Ike isn't an exception and no hes not that skinny

 

[A2ZOMG]

Am I literally the only Mario who has found U-smash out of shield extremely useful against Ike? =(

 

[HeroMystic]

Stuff about Spacing.

I remember you saying Metaknight was a neutral for the exact same reasoning. <_<

Ike fights for his friends, Mario fights for no one.

Unless Peach is hurt, then Mario turns into this:

 

[Kinzer]

Personally I thought he would go on this rampage... It's Solid Mario!

http://www.gizoogle.com/media/super gangsta mario.jpg

 

[Matt07]

Nice picture HeroMystic, it seems to have a 'dark' tone to it though...Mario universe is supposed to be happy .

I used information out of this thread too come up with the summary, credit goes to the original posters.

Edit: Here's the Pro's and Con's I came up with, if anyone disagree's wants anything to be changed let us know thanks .

Pro's:
+Ike's fairly slow.
+Recovery is easily thwarted via cape & Fludd.
+Very easy to juggle, even easier when he's in the air.
+B-air is really nice for approaching.
+F-tilt/U-tilt are very handly when on the ground. They come out quickly.
+D-air is a very safe approach to use.
+Fireballs help Mario with approach.
+Mario's Usmash out of shield works really good on a lot of Ike's approaches.
+Up B works against Jab Cancel's.

Con's:
-Jab combo is annoying at times. And racks up nice damage.
-He's powerful. Can KO you at ridiculously low percents if you get hit at the edge of the stage.
-His U-air/N-air have a somewhat decieving hitbox.
-If he's good at perfectshielding, his weak grabs can be annoying at times.
-Ike has good pressure at the ledgeguarding, making hit hard for Mario due to his small range.
-Difficult to approach.
-Grab release F-air combo on Mario.

Over-all Match-Up: 55:45 Mario's Favour

And thank you for the discussion Ike boards, we greatly appreciate it.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Nice picture HeroMystic, it seems to have a 'dark' tone to it though...Mario universe is supposed to be happy .

I used information out of this thread too come up with the summary, credit goes to the original posters.

Edit: Here's the Pro's and Con's I came up with, if anyone disagree's wants anything to be changed let us know thanks .

Pro's:
+Ike's fairly slow.
+Recovery is easily thwarted via cape & Fludd.
+Very easy to juggle, even easier when he's in the air.
+B-air is really nice for approaching.
+F-tilt/U-tilt are very handly when on the ground. They come out quickly.
+D-air is a very safe approach to use.
+Fireballs help Mario with approach.
+Mario's Usmash out of shield works really good on a lot of Ike's approaches.
+Up B works against Jab Cancel's.

Con's:
-Jab combo is annoying at times. And racks up nice damage.
-He's powerful. Can KO you at ridiculously low percents if you get hit at the edge of the stage.
-His U-air/N-air have a somewhat decieving hitbox.
-Quickdraw is very good onstage.
-Can use his recovery on stage to sew you up with extra damage.
-He can use his Explosion move at really awkward times.
-If he's good at perfectshielding, his weak grabs can be annoying at times.
-Difficult to approach.
-Ike's aerial range kills many of Mario's approaches.
-Ike has good pressure at the ledgeguarding, making hit hard for Mario due to his small range.

Over-all Match-Up: 55:45 Mario's Favour

And thank you for the discussion Ike boards, we greatly appreciate it.

Regarding the cons, I disagree with:

1. Quickdraw is very good onstage.

Quickdraw is a God awful attack and is only good if your opponent is trying to rush you. If your opponet shields it, it's pretty much a free attack.Most Ike players would agree that it's best used to move short distances in a quick manner.

2. Can use his recovery on stage to sew you up with extra damage.

Aether is another terrible move unless you set it up right. With this being said, it's not too likely that you'll see good Ike's use this attack more than once as an actual attack during the fight unless you're always trying to approach from the air like with double jumps.

3. He can use his explosion move at really awkward times.

Again, another really situational attack that you'll rarely see good Ike players use. Mario can easily stop this attack with his fireballs anyway.

4. Difficult to approach.

Fireballs, enough said.

5. Ike's aerial range kills many of Mario's approaches.

Despite it's range, fair is fairly easy to dodge. Nair, on the other hand, isn't but it has shorter range and will usually be done by good Ike players if you're right next to them or right behind them.

Personally, I'd say the match up is 70/30 or 65/35 in Mario's favor.

 

[HeroMystic]

Allow me save you from the Ike's.

Regarding the cons, I disagree with:

1. Quickdraw is very good onstage.

Quickdraw is a God awful attack and is only good if your opponent is trying to rush you. If your opponet shields it, it's pretty much a free attack.Most Ike players would agree that it's best used to move short distances in a quick manner.

Agreed.

2. Can use his recovery on stage to sew you up with extra damage.

Aether is another terrible move unless you set it up right. With this being said, it's not too likely that you'll see good Ike's use this attack more than once as an actual attack during the fight unless you're always trying to approach from the air like with double jumps.

Not terrible, but agreed nonetheless. Aether is used for edgeguarding.

3. He can use his explosion move at really awkward times.

Again, another really situational attack that you'll rarely see good Ike players use. Mario can easily stop this attack with his fireballs anyway.

Indeed. Best used as a surprise move in the air. Mainly if Mario is trying to edgeguard from far away (which you shouldn't be seeing much)

4. Difficult to approach.

Fireballs, enough said.

5. Ike's aerial range kills many of Mario's approaches.

Despite it's range, fair is fairly easy to dodge. Nair, on the other hand, isn't but it has shorter range and will usually be done by good Ike players if you're right next to them or right behind them.

Disagree with #4. Even with fireballs, Ike is fairly hard to approach if the player is correctly spacing, and Ike's jabs (and powershield) can destroy fireball approaching from the ground.

I'll agree with #5, but fact remains that if Ike spaces correctly, Mario will have a hard time approaching anyways. You can't dodge and attack at the same time.

Personally, I'd say the match up is 70/30 or 65/35 in Mario's favor.

Erm, no way. I can go for 60/40, but even that's quite debatable. Mario's pros doesn't heavily outweigh Ike's pros that much to go over 60/40.

55/45 Mario's advantage is the most agreed upon.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't think it's all that close to even honestly, but whatever. Mario has so many more advantages over Ike than Ike has over Mario. It's not like Ike has many specific counters to Mario's advantages.

I mean Ike, his advantages on Mario basically are range and KO power. Mario has everything else in his favor against Ike. Mario has WAY better combos, he has ways to deal with the jab, he can punish most of Ike's approaches with smart use of Up-smash out of shield, and he has better edgeguarding on Ike. Topping this off is the fact Ike is forced to approach Mario to stop Mario from camping with his fireball excessively. Mario's throws not only do more damage than Ike's, Mario gets better setups and KO potential from them.

It's more than 55/45 in Mario's favor. I'd say 6/4. The only reason this isn't worse for Ike is because Mario doesn't have particularly safe KO moves on Ike due to Ike's range.

 

[Ussi]

-_- if speed meant everything, would Snake and DDD be top tier?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I never mentioned speed. Notice?

I mentioned fundamental strategies that Mario outperforms Ike in.

 

[YagamiLight]

Personally, I'd say the match up is 70/30 or 65/35 in Mario's favor.

*falls on Ragnell*

Seriously.

 

[BoTastic!]

70:30 is way too much dude.

 

[Matt07]

Updated the cons, thanks for the information.

 

[PKNintendo]

TESTED! Ike does NOT have a grab release AAA combo on Mario.

(runs)

 

[YagamiLight]

TESTED! Ike does NOT have a grab release AAA combo on Mario.

(runs)

Yep, this was updated in the topic just a short while ago. What he DOES seem to have, however, is a free Fair from an air release that goes offstage. That's considerably worse.

 

[PKNintendo]

Yep, this was updated in the topic just a short while ago. What he DOES seem to have, however, is a free Fair from an air release that goes offstage. That's considerably worse.

Ouch for Mario.

 

[HeroMystic]

It shouldn't be relied on or heavily factored in (very little in fact) on the matchup. Ike has plenty of ledge-air-release follow-ups that he can do on multiple characters but can't be done unless the option is open. In most cases, the fighting will be done at the middle of the stage.

So it's not really an "Ouch", just a "Nice to know".

 

[Matador]

PKNintendo...why are you still here?

I come in because I dislike the board, simple enough.

O yea...I forgot.

 

[Hoser]

Regarding the cons, I disagree with:

2. Can use his recovery on stage to sew you up with extra damage.

Aether is another terrible move unless you set it up right. With this being said, it's not too likely that you'll see good Ike's use this attack more than once as an actual attack during the fight unless you're always trying to approach from the air like with double jumps.

At low %ages, Ike can combo U-Throw into Aether, raking up a good amount of damage quite fast. This move has plenty of good uses, and you will see good Ikes use this attack more then a few times during the fight.

 

[Ussi]

At low %ages, Ike can combo U-Throw into Aether, raking up a good amount of damage quite fast. This move has plenty of good uses, and you will see good Ikes use this attack more then a few times during the fight.

there is something called DI... better off chasing with a uair to hit the air dodge, but aether WILL stop aerial approaches. But air dodging thru aether leaves Ike open for a fsmash. It stops approaches easily but is easily punished.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

(Ikes stopped using QD to recover)

Holy **** other boards actually know what Ike's do now. I wish I had joined in this sooner

 

[Ray/Boshi]

The quickdraw on stage is very nice for Ike. The main usage that I've seen is if I get smashed way to the other side of the stage, he'l quickdraw, to get to the edge very quickly, then attempt to get offensive while i'm returning. Also use it out of the blue on me while in doing a offensive SH approach.

The UpB is nice in some instances. DI can mess it up at times.. It's not something an Ike would rely any of his whole game on but it's there.

If he hits you with a fresh tilt, you may be KOed. Which can come out unexpectedly very often lol.

 

[Matt07]

Hey, Ray/Boshi is back . You finally put your Mario cap back on, glad to know .

 

[A2ZOMG]

If he hits you with a fresh tilt, you may be KOed. Which can come out unexpectedly very often lol.

Well, his tilts are all really slow. Except for his U-tilt, which comes out slightly faster than your F-smash IIRC.

Just beware, he can angle his F-tilt against aerial approaches though.

Otherwise, he has a really hard time landing tilts unless he does something like read an air dodge right when you recover (oh, and keep in mind, when Mario Up-Bs to the ledge, the next time he lands on stage, he incurs a significant landing lag animation that can only be worked around by replacing it with the landing lag animation of an aerial attack, and that can be punished easily by F-tilt.) He can sometimes U-tilt out of shield, but it's not nearly as reliable as Jab.

 

[Ray/Boshi]

Yeah, just not playing it as often. Still vioce my opinion on a few topics.

Been getting into other things. I tend to use Jigglypuff & Wario more then Mario lately though. Also been considering Falco. (I hate playing gay at times, but he's the man for the job) If Falco doesnt win alot of tournaments it's because nobody's using him gay enough in my opinion. lol.

Edit @ A2ZOMG
True. In a nutshell the main thing that affects me vs Ike is he chooses to get creative with using jabs to annoy, & slightly charging his smashes. Usually messes me up with my evade timing. Angled F-tilts sound like a ******* though. Never encountered that before.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Angled F-tilt is only annoying if you give him space to use it and telegraph an approach, but it's not that bad. It's just something you need to be aware of because it CAN intercept aerial approaches.

 

[PKNintendo]

PKNintendo...why are you still here?



O yea...I forgot.

Yes, it's fun seeing the reaction's. Call it, ALPHA TROLLING

K, PKN is out. (playing Fable 2, I managed to get a bonus from my burger king job score!)

Life is tough at age 44.

 

[Ray/Boshi]

I wouldnt put it past you.

 

[Matador]

This is basically finished.

I vote Shiek next. DanGR's chart has it as even when we didn't even discuss it yet.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm cool with Shiek. I have some decent experience against her.