MATCH UPS....throw anything you got.....

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

Up- b

 

[Matt07]

If it wasn't on my lap, I'd either mash up B like crazy, smash my c-stick, and analog stick, and spam the pause button to screw him up .

 

[Dory]

On the off chance that a D3 screws it up and does the infinite a little slower than he should, what should I be doing on my controller to capitalize on this?

OMG!! great question. well i got my inspiration for this from mikeHAZE (fighting climbers)....
i YELL!!!!! and DI diagnolly/up b and push as many buttons as i can...
the yelling part will most likely get the job done (dont be all up in the persons face though xD)
but yeah it works xD
not all the time but better than nothing...

 

[Dory]

spam the pause button to screw him up .

cant do that

 

[Matt07]

cant do that

I know, but it'd be pretty funny to see his reactions, and worth the disqualification .

 

[Dory]

I know, but it'd be pretty funny to see his reactions, and worth the disqualification .

i suppose xD

i prefer my yelling thing. cant (well i havent) get DQ for that =)
just distarcts and makes em laugh

 

[HeroMystic]

On the off chance that a D3 screws it up and does the infinite a little slower than he should, what should I be doing on my controller to capitalize on this?

Up-B or Spotdodge. I kinda don't rely on Up-B for DDD since he can grab you out of it..

 

[Ray/Boshi]

Best method is to not attack a grounded D3 head on.

Another is if he's camping out on one end of the stage, do not be a dummy and attack him. He'll dance you all the way to the other end.

Last and most important. Improvise & play wisely. You dont necassarily have to go in for a connected hit everytime you approach the dude. He only has a few decent KO options anyway. It's not hard at all to see what move to look out for. Without his CG an huge grab range, he's a mid tier character.

I don't attend many tourneys or nothing. Mainly play online. Regardless though, I play the match slow as hell when against Dedede. If he spams waddles, he's mainly using them as dead meat anyway, helps him against projectile spam while giving him a slight idea on how to manuever his way in. I usually just hit them with garbage moves, Dtilt, fireball, ect, ect, just for the hell of it.

Reflex made a wonderful comment on D3's CG awhile back. If you know you about to be grabbed, start mashing ahead of time. You may just break free after he does his grab jab on you.

Cape, Dsmash, Jabs, and fludd. Are your best friends in this battle.

Edit: D3 boards are saying 75/25, or 85/15 for D3. Like wow.

 

[HeroMystic]

They're not too far off. It's 70:30 DeDeDe at best for us.

 

[SkylerOcon]

That's doubtful. I'd say 65/35, or maybe even 60/40. Dedede does horrible against Mario the moment you get off the ground and don't get grabbed.

 

[PKNintendo]

You guys have GOT TO SEE THIS.

XD
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9D3m9ToLHWk
5:20

Nintendo let that on the europeen Nintendo channel.

 

[Matt07]

Yea I heard, and saw that video. That's my first time I saw the infinite .

 

[Matador]

Not surprised. Nintendo didn't make that anyways, Sirlin did.

Edit: Debating ratios is so dumb for a matchup like this. Better to just let them say w/e for the ratio and focus on how to beat him.

 

[hippiedude92]

Okay this matchup has pissed me off in through hell. I'm leaning on 70-30 in D3's favor W/ the infinite and W/O the infinite maybe 55-45 in D3s? (There are those who can't do the infinite, but there are those who can do the infinite perfect but ya know, the infinite does make a difference in the matchup. I remember writing a full extensive post with luigi vs D3, it's just about the same with luig but except Mario has safer defensive options in his arsenal. But let's clear things up on the infinite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UyrHXK36A

Let me do some explaining here:

I play against some of the best Luigi players in the midwest in Sandwhich and TheMann. What I have noticed when I play against Luigi that his game involves a lot of constant pressure and comboing. Also, Luigi's key feature is his FAST aerials and his relatively low lag. However, Luigi does not really approach on the ground, he approaches in the air because of his aerials. His ground game is not super good, but his down B can get him in and out quickly for some quick pokes.

All of this together gives Dedede MANY opportunities for shield grabs. As a Luigi player, you need to be EXTREMELY careful as to not get shield grabbed, because this will start the infinite. However, you also have to watch out because if you're just floating around in front of him, you will likely be in up tilt range. That's what should be going on in a King Dedede main's head. The luigi player really only has two options and that is throw fireballs from midrange or approach with quick aerials. Both of which can quickly change into King Dedede's favor.

Key information on the infinite:

Ankoku and I originally did a lot of research on this infinite and he came to the conclusion that the "stale moves list" only has 9 moves in it maximum. Here's how that applies to King Dedede:

With Mario, Luigi, and Samus for some reason after 5 consecutive down throws, the move stales and King Dedede is not able to regrab them. With Samus and Mario, however, they can be regular chain grabbed afterwards, which usually leads to an easy zero to 70% combo in addition to an edge guarding attempt. Luigi players are lucky in the sense that Luigi slides all over the place and prevents King Dedede from chain grabbing him regularly so he can't follow up. This is where the stale moves list comes in...

If I do 5 consecutive throws, you break out between the 5th and the 6th throw. However, a grab attack (Dedede's head butt) also counts as a move in the stale move list. Look at these possible stale move lists:

1. down throw - down throw - down throw - down throw - down throw

You will break out automatically after the 5th throw

2. down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw

Here's 9 moves in the stale move list alternating a punch and a down throw. Since the next move would be a punch the next stale move list would read:

punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch - down throw - punch

Since there are NEVER more than 5 down throws in the stale move list if you add in a punch between each throw, the move will never stale and it is an infinite.

As far as being able to get out at early percents goes, in smash you are naturally more and more unable to break out of throws the higher your percent is at. So, at 0% you can break out RIGHT after a punch where by 50% a punch is nearly guaranteed if the King Dedede player buffers in the punch after the grab. Which means they can infinite you starting at around 50%. That's why the infinite is so good and so hard to break out of.

I hope that helps and please let me know if you have any more questions.

And for God's sake...don't pull a Boss and avoid the infinite all match...but get killed by a Gordo. I died a little inside when I heard that.

This mad me lol so hard. It's easy to pull a Boss ;D

 

[PKNintendo]

Not surprised. Nintendo didn't make that anyways, Sirlin did.

Edit: Debating ratios is so dumb for a matchup like this. Better to just let them say w/e for the ratio and focus on how to beat him.

That. And do you super grab break? It helps alot.

 

[cHooKay]

Yeah uhh pretty much a pointless match up as soon as you get grabbed, which why I agree with monk that it is pretty strange to this date that this infinite still isn't banned.

I don't want to repeat what was already stated, but pretty much all mario has vs ddd's cg is proper fireball spamming, staying in the air, FH dairs, and edgecamping to counter this infinite....

The majority of matches against this fat a** I've lost because of a single grab. Until someone figures a way to exploit marios frames within this grab animation we're screwed. I still have hope, since the marth vinci code was cracked for the mother boys...

 

[Takeshi245]

You guys have GOT TO SEE THIS.

XD
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9D3m9ToLHWk
5:20

Nintendo let that on the europeen Nintendo channel.

Oh. Wow. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more Dedede mains after watching that video.

Anyways, Mario vs. Dedede is 7-3 in his favor. He outranges you and outprioritzes you in the air and on the ground. In a way, he's like Marth but with more range, power, a projectile that can be very deadly (Gordo anyone?) and has an infinite on you. The good things Mario has against Dedede is that he can juggle him well with uairs and u-tilts because of his weight and his fireballs can make approaching less difficult. That bair of his is nasty, though. You can gimp Dedede but it's not easy against a Dedede player that knows how to recover well. You need to be very defensive and make sure to punish Dedede as much as you can. That's all I have to say.

 

[JST]

Dedede does horrible against Mario the moment you get off the ground and don't get grabbed.

WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG

D3 has aerial superiority in the form of bair and retreating fair. Along with all the other options he has at his disposal due to his mulltijumps. And inhale.

Fireballs help a LOT, though. Spam them at EVERY suitable opportunity. D3 has trouble dealing with projectiles, although some will be content to just PS every single fireball you throw at them if they're ahead in stock/percentage. It's not like D3 is dealing with Falco.

It's not hard at all to see what move to look out for. Without his CG an huge grab range, he's a mid tier character.

Wut.

That grab range is WAAAAY too big of an affecting factor in this match-up to rule out. Even if it is predictable, even if it is repetitive and easy to read, it's good enough that it'll work nearly every time - a LOT of Mario's attacks are shieldgrabbable. You simply CANNOT afford to mispace or miss or slip-up or make ANY kind of mistake, because D3 will punish that by racking up an alarming amount of damage at low percentages, and infiniting you at higher percentages (In which case, your stock is as good as gone because by then his bair is fresh and since it outranges and outprioritizes nearly everything you have it'll be really hard to NOT get hit). Even without grabbing you (Which will happen unless you are an absolute god at smash beyond the likes of M2K), all of D3's attacks either hit HARD, completely outrange Mario, or both. On top of that Waddle Dees can and will interfere with some of Mario's fireball setups. Not to mention they're annoying and every single thing that D3 can throw out can attack you.

(BTW if you do get a hit in, make it count because comboing in general does a huge number on D3)

Mario isn't good at pressuring D3's shield. Nope. Even with fireballs. Please don't say 'just land behind him' because pivot grab OoS is almost immediate in this game.


In terms of killing. Like it or not, Mario will have trouble killing D3, even if he saves those smashes. On the other hand, Mario is one of the more capable characters at gimping D3, so that balances out nicely. Actually, that's wrong - Mario is PERFECT at gimping D3. Or at least pressuring and edgeguarding his recovery.

I personally think a good ratio for this matchup is 7:3 D3's favor. But you guys should focus more on what you options you guys have against D3. It's also sad to say, but your options against D3 aren't exactly amazing, especially when you face a competent, tourney-level D3. And when the D3 figures you out, it just becomes worse.

Writing this up, I feel like I'm missing a whole lot about Mario's game. But w/e, I'm just stating the match-up from my perspective.

 

[Blackbelt]

D3 is the reason Mario needs a secondary.

Nuff said.

 

[Ray/Boshi]

You need to reread my post before you go quoting certain segments of it.

Anyway. KO wise. Dedede only has a few moves. Mainly Bair an Utilt. Fair's a best at times also. "Without" his CG, D3 a garbage character though.

Far as winning the matchup. I've no idea. D3's huge. It doesnt look so bright for Mario. Unless you go counter picking a stage on him. Play very campy I guess.

 

[HeroMystic]

Even without the chaingrab, his grabs are the best grabs in the game. He has a massive grab range which does massive amount of damage, (Back-throw does 16% >_<) and B-air is ****ing ridiculous. It's too good for a character like him.

His other moves aren't as good though, although F-air is a good spacing move. Without the chaingrab he'd easily be near the bottom of high tier I believe, but mainly this match-up would be a lot easier for Mario. Nonetheless, it's only ideal in a perfect world for Mario.

All this talk about chaingrabs make me wish Mario kept his chaingrabs from Melee.

 

[Matt07]

Mario's chaingrab in Melee was sweet (although I never used it for some reason.) I'm just curious do you guys think they'll ever ban infinites in tournaments?

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

nope...doesn't affect enough characters

 

[The Master of Mario]

D3

U-air and Grabs are pretty effective on D3

D-throw->Utilt or U-smash **** at low percents.
If you think D3 will DI up F-throw->Dash Attack or SH Cape+N-air.
Wall of Pain B-air can be used against projectiles and approaches.
D-air works great against D3 in the air, but not on the ground It isn't even a combo cause it doesn't stun enough.
D3 has very high landing lag and slow laggy aerials excluding his B-air.(worse than Snake)
You can spam Full Jump fireballs to weaken his shield low enough to Dash Attack.
If you can time your fireballs to hit D3 right before you grab you can gain frame advantage.
D3's standing grab can eat a D-smash so F-smash is probably your best smash on the ground.
D3's Dash grab is easier to stop than his standing grab D-smash works well against it.
D3 cannot grab you if you're above his waist in the air and his grab lag is pretty high.
D3 can't infinite off the edges.
If D3 starts hogging the edge FLUDD can push him off it and he'll have to use his slower aerials.
Edguarding is easier his Up-Special is Multiple Cape or Fludd to Cape bate.
Fireball to F-air can work
Fludd->D-smash or Up angled F-smash works.
Blind U-air hitting D3 behind Mario and B-air edgegaurd well because most of his aerials lag too much to help his recovery. D3's multiple jumps leave him vulnerable because his U-air and D-air lags too much for use low on the screen. This makes it easier to B-air him into the Final Destination or Battlefield edges from above for stage kills. Fireballs can cause him to mess up his jumps and just lag. D3 is a fast faller so he has to use his jumps to move horizontally.


Edgegaurding and Spacing is important against D3

 

[Genos]

D3 cannot grab you if your in the air

>_>

Come on.

 

[Judge Judy]

I don't know if anyone has thought of this or not but what about using B-recoiled capes? It might be a good way to directly atk DDD's shield without getting grabbed. I've been trying Up Bs too but it's way too risky if you miss.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'll go ahead and answer all of this stuff.

U-air and Grabs are pretty effective on D3
This is true... but don't go out of your way to do it

D-throw->Utilt or U-smash **** at low percents.
Don't bother U-Smashing. Stick with U-tilt. It's faster and does better locking.

If you think D3 will DI up F-throw->Dash Attack or SH Cape+N-air.
Do not dash attack, and do not F-throw him towards the stage. You're just hurting your chances. U-air should have more priority of the SH-Cape+N-air.

Wall of Pain B-air can be used against projectiles and approaches.
Stick with caping his projectiles and using B-air against his projectiles will only let you get killed by a Gordo.

D-air works great against D3 in the air, but not on the ground.
A FH D-air on a grounded DeDeDe will allow you eat D3's shield but more importantly move past him if he's camping at the edge. Which he will be.

D3 has very high landing lag and slow laggy aerials excluding his B-air.(worse than Snake)
True. You just have to not get hit...

You can spam Full Jump fireballs to weaken his shield low enough to Dash Attack.
Fireballs sure, but Dash attack is VERY risky with D3 and is recommended to not be used. A FH D-air is a better method.

If you can time your fireballs to hit D3 right before you grab you can gain frame advantage.
You shouldn't be grabbing him as an approach method. Use it for punishing.

D3's standing grab can eat a D-smash so F-smash is probably your best smash on the ground.
You shouldn't be contesting his grab range in the first place... >_>

D3's Dash grab is easier to stop than his standing grab D-smash works well against it.
Spam spotdodge if you want any chance of getting out of it at all.

D3 cannot grab you if you're above his waist in the air and his grab lag is pretty high.
Actually... that's the perfect place for D3 to grab you...

D3 can't infinite off the edges.
Hence Monk's edge strategy that I explained thoroughly in good detail

If D3 starts hogging the edge FLUDD can push him off it and he'll have to use his slower aerials.
Correct

Edguarding is easier his Up-Special is Multiple Cape or Fludd to Cape bate.
Mhmm.

Fireball to F-air can work
Harder to pull off though

Fludd->D-smash or Up angled F-smash works.
In what situation?

Blind U-air hitting D3 behind Mario and B-air edgegaurd well because most of his aerials lag too much to help his recovery. D3's multiple jumps leave him vulnerable because his U-air and D-air lags too much for use low on the screen. This makes it easier to B-air him into the Final Destination or Battlefield edges from above for stage kills. Fireballs can cause him to mess up his jumps and just lag.
Easier to cape then to B-air spike, but everything else is true. By the way, don't choose Battlefield as a counterpick.

Edgegaurding and Spacing is important against D3
Yes.

I don't know if anyone has thought of this or not but what about using B-recoiled capes? It might be a good way to directly atk DDD's shield without getting grabbed. I've been trying Up Bs too but it's way too risky if you miss.

Shield-poking D3 with the cape is theoretically a nice idea but DDD can just automatically turn around due to pivot grabbing and just grab you anyways. I suppose it's a good mindgame tactic though.

 

[Judge Judy]

Shield-poking D3 with the cape is theoretically a nice idea but DDD can just automatically turn around due to pivot grabbing and just grab you anyways. I suppose it's a good mindgame tactic though.

Yah, I see what you're saying but using B-recoil should place you out of DDD's grab range if you space it right.

 

[hippiedude92]

D3's ko options is really much. It's mostly of that utilt that wrecks Mario everywhere. Marios blind spot below against a giant hitbox utilt is just plain gaaaay. All of D3's aerials have landing lag, It's pretty easy to powershield against his Bair actually lol. D3's will love to mix up their grab game so don't fall for that kind of bs like Dthrow to fsmash ,Dthrow to dash attack or anything else.

Getting past D3's range isn't much of a problem but the grab range is a problem.

 

[SkylerOcon]

WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG

D3 has aerial superiority in the form of bair and retreating fair. Along with all the other options he has at his disposal due to his mulltijumps. And inhale.

Fireballs help a LOT, though. Spam them at EVERY suitable opportunity. D3 has trouble dealing with projectiles, although some will be content to just PS every single fireball you throw at them if they're ahead in stock/percentage. It's not like D3 is dealing with Falco.

Not, WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG, actually. While the retreating fair and bair are good, D3 is so easily juggled that Mario can get in quite a few Dthrow -> Uair -> Uair -> Dthrow -> Uair -> Uair. Not to mention that if were to start that off with a utilt lock, you'd have 70% before you even touched us. Mario's aerials beat out D3s because he's so easily juggled.

 

[Matador]

Post

Basically the matchup in a nutshell. Your main focus is the grab, just like naners vs Diddy, just like Nana vs ICs. D3's grabs are much harder to play around since he has much more besides that, but you have to tools to deal with what D3 throws at you.

 

[hippiedude92]

Mario has the upper advantage from 0%. He can get like 60% on him quick just as D3 infinites him lol. Oh and inhaling is really garbage. Just control middle of the stage, stay away from the edges and spam fireballs intelligently.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's ideal to have a good edge game if you want to consistently beat good DDD's. They're ****ing everywhere.

You want to stay at the edge or steal DDD's edge. Get him into a U-tilt lock and abuse the D-throw > U-tilt. However, it's in your best interest to throw him off and cape him. It's just not going to get any easier for Mario if you keep him on the stage because it's so freaken hard to KO even with a fresh F-smash.

You have to abuse the fact that as good as DDD's recovery is, it's the perfect recovery to get gimped by Mario. Bad start-up, easily telegraphed (Four multi-jumps. After that he has to use it), and no hitbox while he's rising upward. The landing lag is very punishable which can easily get him back off the stage.

Once you have a stock over him, you won't have to worry about the inhale. Only an idiot would DDDcide if he has a stock lower.

The few bad parts of this tactic is that to make this fully effective, you need to camp both ledges. Playing the camp game against DDD won't work as he simply has the better projectiles. Therefore, you're still risking the chance of being grabbed.

B-throw needs to stay fresh, but juggling him should keep that con to a minimum.

It's not a foolproof tactic, but it's definitely the ideal tactic to use. Believe me. I was able to kill off 2 of DDD's stock once I applied this tactic after I got thrown down to 1 stock. If you master this tactic this can easily shift this 70:30 match-up into something easier like 60:40.

EDIT: Small question. Wasn't this considered a decent match-up for Mario before the infinite came up?

 

[Ray/Boshi]

Lucily for Mario. At low % all Dedede focuses on is grabbing you.

 

[cutter]

Lucily for Mario. At low % all Dedede focuses on is grabbing you.

Wouldn't D3 focus on just grabbing Mario at mid/high percentages so he can infinite Mario and wipe out an entire stock? Obviously at low percents Mario can escape grab pummels.

Also, D3's "lack of kill moves" is irrelevant in this matchup:
1) D3 has two fantastic kill moves in Utilt and Bair that any character would just die to have. They will almost all of the time be fresh because he will be grabbing you, tossing Waddle Dees, etc.
2) Once he infinites you, any throw of his will kill.

 

[MorphedChaos]

If you somehow get hit with D3's Fsmash... All I can say is GG, that'll KO you before he can infinite you. And if YOUR off the stage, D3 can WoP your poor recovery.

 

[gantrain05]

If you somehow get hit with D3's Fsmash... All I can say is GG, that'll KO you before he can infinite you. And if YOUR off the stage, D3 can WoP your poor recovery.

....i'd have to say just don't pick mario when your up against a DDD >.> honestly he doesn't have much over the fat penguin, you can't even safely Utilt lock him, because if DDD knows the matchup i believe they can just Nair and it will hit mario, i tried to Utilt lock a DDD at my last tourney and he just mashed the A button and i ended up being the one in the bad position, also, mario has absolutely no approaches to DDD that are safe at all, he's going to eventually get grabbed and infinited, and if he doesn't approach he wont ever win so....its just a really bad match for the fat plumber.

 

[HeroMystic]

DDD shouldn't be able to get out of the U-tilt lock.

However, if he's mashing the button for N-air. Take advantage of that. Shield it then grab him and then D-throw him to repeat.

It's over when you get grabbed, but it's not impossible to win. Honestly, I refuse to believe that just because he has a bull**** grab it's an autoloss.

I'll try to upload some videos of the edge tactic. Seems like no one except Monk and I knows about it.

 

[hippiedude92]

Why the living fuuuuuuckk would a WoP be so threatening people?!!? All you have to ****ing do is maintain your second jump, DI away, throw a fireball at him or cape, then recover. WoP has never proved a problem for me ever... Inhale is only a threat only if hes a stock ahead... And if he is a stock down, he won't DDDcide, but he'll most likely spit you under the stage so you won't be able to recover...


you ppl need to start thinking like boss, and dont think infinite is a complete loss!!

 

[Dory]

It really isn't impossible. I've beaten several D3s in tournaments. Just remember to keep your spacing, use fireballs, and what I do is short hop then basically any aerial but landing behind his so he can't shield grab. I honestly would rather play D3 than G&W ]: