Match-Up Discussion #8! Pit

[BacklashMarth]

Why won't this thread die down....

I'm sure you have better things to do than argue with Inui over personal insults EL. Same for you Inui.

I honestly don't care that you guys don't get along, but you guys really don't have to interact with each other if you piss each other off that much.

Just stop provoking each other.

Hey ur missing out on a grand opportunity here. We should place bets on who would win in a match (EL's Marth vs. Inui's Pit). By doing this we settle 2 debates. 1) who has the edge in a marth vs. pit matchup and 2) is inui and his tourny experience/"know how" worth a fast falling f***.

 

[feardragon64]

You don't beat really good people and neither do I. [. . .]
You aren't.

At least I'm realistic and don't act arrogant in regards to my skill when there is really no basis for it.

Hey ur missing out on a grand opportunity here. We should place bets on who would win in a match (EL's Marth vs. Inui's Pit). By doing this we settle 2 debates. 1) who has the edge in a marth vs. pit matchup and 2) is inui and his tourny experience/"know how" worth a fast falling f***.

Except EL is saying that neither of them are truly skilled players in terms of top level. So it wouldn't exactly measure the first as well. And sorta the same logic for the second.

Oh god now I'm doing it. Have you fun EL.... *gives up*

 

[Inui]

lol @ nobody actually debating any of my points

You fail, Marcel.

 

[Steel]

It's because your arrogance and general "Marth isn't that good anymore" state of mind that is clouding your judgement.

No, it's not that simple for Marth.

Pit is forcing Marth to approach. Approaching in Brawl with non-Meta Knight is usually very unsafe and risky.

Being outside of Pit's attack range and close enough so that Pit can't safely shoot arrows is extremely difficult. It's a very small amount of space.

If Marth is a tiny bit too close, he can get hit by Pit's fast ground moves or get punished by a dash attack. If he's too far away, he will get shot by an arrow.

If Marth was in that perfect area and never messed up, then he'd easily win.

Basically, if Marth doesn't give Pit space and doesn't give him any breathing room he is ****ed. You can aggro pit and be completely safe if you have spacing and Pit can't do anything about it.

This game doesn't have hitstun. What's Pit's punishment for making a mistake? He gets hit once. Marth works around the massive camping, takes risks to approach Pit, finally gets a hit...and that's it. The cycle then repeats itself. The terrible powershielding, airdodging, and hitstun mechanics of this game make camping too good because the punishment for finally getting caught is very minor.

Are you really saying once Pit is hit the match is completely reset to neutral? Far from. What's to keep Marth from using his speed to close in on Pit within a second or two and just ****** him? Unless we are talking about death-percentages, Pit isn't gonna get hit to the other side of the stage which would lead to him spamming again.

Do nothing, because if Marth is close enough to hit him, he's also close enough to get hit. It's just a battle of powershield/sidestep/airdodge --> something, just like most of the actual "fighting" in this game.

>_>

No, he isn't close enough to get hit. Not going to respond to this because as I said if marth just lets loose a relentless onslaught while still staying safe Pit is a goner.

LMAO

You just proved that Pit wins with your own argument.

Pit camps. He shoots arrows at Marth. He forces Marth to defend himself. He forces Marth to approach and mount an offensive, which means Marth takes risks because of the silly powershield/airdodge/sidestep mechanics. One mistake and he eats an attack.

Marth has to react to Pit the entire time.

If Marth gives Pit space then the Pit player should just be happy. Marth is basically saying "im going to let you move freely, k?". Pit uses this to his advantage and keeps Marth out with quick attacks and arrows. If Marth gives him no breathing room then Pit can't do anything but TRY and escape. Marth has the speed to deal with any escape tactic.

 

[Inui]

This debate is stale because we're all repeating ourselves, but it's cool that you actually replied.

Me thinking Marth isn't that good doesn't cloud my judgment. It stops me from going all Marth in tournaments and thinking he can take out a Dedede player, Snake player, Meta Knight player, and then repeat the cycle again, all in a row.

 

[Steel]

I know we are just repeating ourselves, but you wanted a reply. There isn't much to say because we just respond with the same arguments. But I think that is because you haven't said what Pit can do to deal with pressure from marth. I don't mean pressure as camping outside of Pit's range and not completely hitting him, but actually in his face giving him basically no space to do anything.

I will say that Marth is completely capable of beating those three characters, Dedede and Snake more than meta, of course.

 

[Inui]

The only thing Pit can do is the same thing the entire cast does about pressure from anything.

Offense in Brawl sucks.
-0 hitstun.
-Random airdodge/sidestep --> *stuff* is legit because of that 0 hitstun not allowing combos or pressure to truly continue.
-Powershield --> something is nearly broken, and even if Marth spaces himself perfectly against Pit's shield with an aerial, he's punishable anyways.

I know Marth is capable of it, but 90% of every match you ever play in tourny will be against a Meta Knight, Snake, or Dedede at this point, which puts Marth at a big disadvantage overall.

 

[Steel]

I'm not talking about combos though. I'm talking about laying on constant pressure that Pit can't deal with because of his given tools in these kinds of situations.

The only think that was worth mentioning in your post and COULD stuff marth is powershield, but I doubt you will be powershielding that consistently.

 

[Inui]

Powershielding is incredibly easy to do consistently.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Snake + juggle game = ****. Marth = good juggler. Snake + Marth = suprize buttsecks for snake. Enuff said. I mean c'mon, I wish ppl would recognize that Marth has a chance against snake if u play smart. Sure u could say that i dont play the best snakes in the nation and u may be correct. But I have a decent marth and i have played against a decent snake of equal level and its an easier match once u get snake into the air (juggle is campy a** to 110% by baiting airdodges for crying out loud). Even HRnut has a video of a high level snake vs. marth match where he didnt get *****.

P.S. I know this is about Pit but i sorta dont care anymore and thought i would just throw that out there about the snake match up.

 

[Inui]

Snake wins the match. Granted, he wins by less than Dedede does, and far less than Meta Knight does, but all three of the best/most commonly used characters counter Marth to some degree, so he's always fighting a very uphill battle to place high in tournaments.

 

[teh_spamerer]

Running the clock is a viable strategy in Brawl.

Not in every matchup

Marth's b-air or d-air not being auto-cancelled = mega lag.

Ok...? Why would Marth dair on the stage in the first place? That makes no sense at all. And Marth's bair = super easy to throw it as soon as you jump. ALL of Pit's aeriels have mega lag if he doesn't throw them out the moment he jumps. Marth having aeriels that he doesn't have to throw out the MOMENT he jumps = advantage for Marth.

Marth's smashes = mega lag.

Who is going to randomly throw them out?

His u-tilt even has more recovery time than Pit's f-smash.

Why are all of your points so useless? Hey, did you know Bowser's Flame Breath has more range then Meta's tornado? IT'S OBVIOUSLY BETTER LOLOLOL!

Pit's fsmash has mediocre range and you can shieldgrab him in between the two hits. People can DI out by accident after the first hit and then it gets diminished and doesn't kill. Marth can up b out of shield and hit Pit.

In terms of recovery time, Pit ***** Marth. Pit is more able to do *stuff* and just camp and throw stuff out.

Um, what does Pit have on shield that is safe if he can just "throw stuff out"? Fsmash isn't safe except against characters that grab slow or people playing dumb.

He's heavier, less gimpable

True, he's heavier but it's only a slight difference tbh. Pit dies ~2% higher from Snake's uptilt.

Less gimpable is debatable. Sheik can chase him off the stage and hit him with her bair's large hitbox if he uses up b. Meta can run off the stage and hit him. If Marth sees someone go off the stage to hit him with [anything] he can up B, possibly stagespike, but definetely hit his opponent and take the ledge. Granted he will still get gimped sometimes and his landing lag is bad but Pit is easier to keep on the ledge/off the stage then Marth is.

has less recovery time

Moves Marth can safely use on shield if spaced properly
Fair
Bair
Nair
Dtilt
Sword Dance
Upair?(I'm not sure but it looks safe if it's spaced)
Shieldbreaker if it'll break the shield

Pit does not have that many safe moves on shield.

Marth has the option of purposely misspacing a fastfalled fair or a nair and then doing up B the moment he lands to punish someone from shieldgrabbing. If your opponent catches on and doesn't shieldgrab, all the better. Now you can purposely misspace moves on shield and then SH back and properly space.

mistakes get punished less severely and less often in general.

Yes, if Marth uses his smashes stupidly he will get punished for them. But he still has more moves that are safe on shield

If they trade hits, Marth takes more damage. Marth would have to hit Pit more than he hit him in order to win(obviously, lol), but if they go blow for blow, Pit wins out because he's heavier.

No, Pit doesn't win because he's heavier. His kill moves are harder to land in this matchup. Fsmash is unsafe on shield and gets punished with up b or grab between the two hits.

% Pit kills Marth with listed move from center of FD in training mode with CPU set to "Stop"
bair sweetspot - 99%
fsmash - 121%
glide attack - 127%
center hit front hit of dsmash - 133%
dash attack - 137%
upsmash - 138%
dair center hit - 142%
ftilt - 153%
fair - 168%
upair - 170%
fully spaced front hit of dsmash - 186%
center hit back hit of dsmash - 188%
upthrow - 200%
dtilt - 204%
uptilt strong hit - 211%
fully spaced back hit of dsmash - 230%
uptilt weak hits - 232%

% Marth kills Pit with listed move from center of FD in training mode with CPU set to "Stop"
supertipper fully charged shieldbreaker - 42%
center hit fully charged shieldbreaker - 68%
tipper fsmash - 75%
tipper dsmash - 105%
tipper nair(last hit only) - 111%
tipper uptilt - 115%
tipper nair(all hits) - 118%
tipper upsmash - 121%
center hit dsmash - 124%
tipper bair - 128%
center hit uptilt - 134%
center hit fsmash - 134%
dolphin slash - 137%
tipper upair - 143%
tipper fair - 147%
tipper ftilt - 160%
center hit bair - 173%
upthrow - 188%
dash attack - ~200%(too lazy to find exact %)
center hit nair(all hits) - 210%
center hit fair - 220%

Let's compare: The easiest of those moves for Pit to land are his bair and his fsmash, both in terms of ease in landing them and in terms of strength. The only real way he can hit with any of those moves is if Marth either sidesteps/airdodges and then gets hit by them or if he get shieldstabbed.

Now I could be wrong but I'm fairly certain Marth's SH back fair beats Pit's bair and possibly his fsmash. Even if it doesn't, shielding the hit and then punishing Pit with something out of shield works because if he fastfalls the bair there is landing lag and if he doesn't he's stuck in the air after the bair hits Marth's shield.

If Pit fsmashes Marth's shield he eats a dolphin slash out of shield if they're going "blow for blow." If Pit is at low % and can punish Marth if he does that, then Marth can shieldgrab between the hits and throw him. Marth has pretty good options on Pit from his fthrow. Pit is forced to do "something" if he doesn't want to get hit from an immediate attack.

Those two moves that are only decent aside, Pit has pretty awful killing moves. Glide attack should never hit Marth. For his dsmash to kill it has to hit with the front center part of the hitbox. That REALLY sucks and it is not hard to punish if it's shielded. Marth's dsmash is equally easy to punish and is stronger than Pit's, especially if he hits with a tipper. Marth's upsmash is stronger than Pit's and is easier to hit with. Tipper nair is safe on shield and kills at respectable %s. Uptilt is pretty strong and is good if your opponent is on platforms. Tipper bair is safe on shield and it's also good when Pit is on the ledge to punish his jump/sidestep/getup with. If Marth breaks Pit's shield, Pit dies at absurdly low %s.

I could continue to do a move for move comparison as to why Marth is much better at killing but I feel the #s speak for themselves with the rest of the moves.

Jump back b-air and d-tilt are safe. Other stuff isn't.

SHFF fair is safe on shield. SHFF nair is safe on shield. Sword dance spaced is safe on shield and your opponent has to guess when you're going to stop. Shieldbreaker is safe if it will break shield. That is enough moves on shield to be safe.

Marth wins in the air indeed, but if Pit isn't in the air as well, Marth has to take risks.

Not really. Hitting Pit's shield with one fair and then dtilting until Pit does [something] is not risky at all. If Pit fsmashes to punish Marth making a spacing mistake he diminishes one of his two good kill moves and has to land a bair to kill.

Pit has arrows but even you say

Powershielding is incredibly easy to do consistently.

If it's so easy to do consistently at the start of a match Marth is going to dash across the stage powershielding arrows repeatedly. Then once Pit runs out of space to shoot arrows, what is he going to do? Let's say the last arrow Pit shot was powershielded, if Pit rolls away he's at the ledge, and that Marth is standing at Snake's uptilt distance from Pit. What is Pit going to do? He can't hit with any attacks from that range. It's too close for Pit to shoot any arrows. Marth is going to be expecting dash attack and he's going to counter if that's what Pit does. Not to mention dash attack doesn't have enough knockback until higher percents to be safe on hit. If Pit rolls behind him Marth is going to pivot sword dance and hit him towards the ledge. If Pit jumps on the ledge, he can't do anything deadly from there. If Pit jumps above Marth he is putting himself in a bad spot. If he rolls away Marth is going to dash sword dance.

That leaves standing still, dash shielding, or rushing Marth with an aeriel. If he just sits there standing still and Marth talks a tiny step forward and then dtilts, what is Pit going to do? If he shields he can't punish and will eventually have to do something if he doesn't he gets hit. You can't shield in the initial dash so he's probably going to get hit by something if he tries that at this range. Marth can stuff Pit's aeriels with SH back fair. What options does Pit have at this range that Marth can't easily deal with? None except pray Marth messes up. That's it. This is why Pit loses the match.

Not that Marth really NEEDS anything else in the match but he refreshes moves better then Pit does. Arrow spam is annoying but most of them will not hit. Sword dance on the other hand is good for punishing and refreshes all of his moves.

When Pit is on the ledge he has a tough time getting onto the stage against Marth because his aeriels have poor range. Marth does not have this same problem against Pit.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Idk if this helps anything, but I played NEO's Marth for a realllly long time, and he really took it to my Snake. Like, he didn't **** me, cuz on the stage I did well but really all of Snake's weaknesses he capitalized on really well.

Basically, I think Marth is better than you are giving him credit for Lucas.

 

[feardragon64]

teh_spammer, why are you so inaptly named?

I hate to spam, but wow....that was just an awesome analysis. Anyways, thanks for it. I also appreciate the %'s.

 

[JesiahTEG]

SMASHBOARDS MARTH VS PIT DEBATE GRAND FINALS

JesiahTEG + Teh_Spamerer + feardragon64 vs Sadaharu Inui

Teh_Spamerer=The Metaknight of debating
feardragon64= Marth boards frequenter. Knowledge is power!
JesiahTEG=Uhh...Well...I'll sit back and throw stuff randomly cuz I'm Snake?

Sadaharu Inui-

 

[Teczer0]

JesiahTEG + Teh_Spamerer + feardragon64 vs Sadaharu Inui
Smashboards Marth vs Pit Debate

Grand Finals

LOL

How can that be grand finals?

Thats like m2k + azen vs 2 lvl 1 foxes. (MELEEEEEEEEEE)

 

[Steel]

Idk if this helps anything, but I played NEO's Marth for a realllly long time, and he really took it to my Snake. Like, he didn't **** me, cuz on the stage I did well but really all of Snake's weaknesses he capitalized on really well.

Basically, I think Marth is better than you are giving him credit for Lucas.

This.

And I think this is why you have to rely on other characters to get you through tournaments inui, how does that make you a top marth player? I'm seriously trying to figure that out. Perhaps you aren't giving him enough credit because you can't figure out how to beat top tier characters with him?

You make it sound like those 3 have a huge advantage on marth, for the record it's even with both Snake and Dedede, and a slight disadvantage vs MK.

 

[grandmaster192]

Marth vs DDD is not even, steel, but you're right about the other two.

 

[Steel]

Marth vs DDD is not even, steel, but you're right about the other two.

So... the entire marth board was wrong when we discussed the match up and because you and inui say it isn't even we should take it as truth?

 

[grandmaster192]

So... the entire marth board was wrong when we discussed the match up and because you and inui say it isn't even we should take it as truth?

Every good DDD I play agrees that it's a hard match up for Marth and DDD has the advantage.

Marth boards also have a bad way of determining match ups to be honest.

 

[Remzi]

I also agree that Marth vs D3 is slightly in D3's favor. Like 6:4.

 

[grandmaster192]

Yep, 6:4 is wht I think as well.

 

[feardragon64]

This isn't a pit vs marth discussion anymore....it's like 4 threads combined into one.

1) Pit vs. Marth Discussion

2) Marth boards vs. Inui

3) Marth vs. high tier characters

4) Mindless dribble

....

Why isn't this dead yet?

 

[JesiahTEG]

Because Marth will never die, no matter how much you want him to.

 

[Steel]

Every good DDD I play agrees that it's a hard match up for Marth and DDD has the advantage.

Marth boards also have a bad way of determining match ups to be honest.

lol, care to offer any proof of it? The d3 boards also agree it's an even match up. Perhaps after playing your marth they thought it was more of an advantage for dedede? Meh, just a guess.

Oh, and please tell us all the best way of discussing a match up. I'm all ears.

We can always rediscuss a match up because there is a different thread for each character. If you can manage to give us solid proof that the match is indeed in dedede's favor, go for it. If not, please get your ignorant **** out of here.

 

[Admiral Pit]

I came here because I saw "Pit" shown here, so this Marth vs Pit matchup.

I dont got much time to say my opinion on it (School time), but remember that you Marths got more range than us Pits do, if you dont count the arrows, therefore it is hard for a Pit to approach a Marth without arrows. Our F-air may be Pit's Melee range, but it is nothing compared to Marth's range.

Be warned that a Pit would use arrows to stop you from recovering, eating up your mid-air jump, and can use the Mirror Shield strategically to stop your up-B recovery.
As a Pit, I do fear Marth's Range, tipper, speed, spike, and possible combos.
Both of our chars do got good Edgeguarding capabilities, so keep that in mind.

I might try to contribute more later on.

 

[grandmaster192]

@Steel:

Oh, so I'm ignorant because I have a different opinion about a match up? DDD is top-tier, of course people are going to think he has advatanges. Most agree that DDD is, in fact, one of Marth's harder match ups. It's not by any means ignorant to believe it's in DDD's favor.

About Marth's match up threads: The way the Marth boards comes to it's conclusions is it just compares who's the better character a lot of the times, and not really the actual match up itself. We have a bad tendacy to ignore other characters options and what they can do to take advantage against some of Marth's weaknesses. Here's how things usually go:

"Marth is faster, more range, better recovery. He can up b out of shield and punish with dancing blade. 6/4 advantage for Marth."

We don't go into depth with Marth's weaknesses, how other characters can take advantage of them, options other characters have against Marth both defensively and offensively, how well they can gimp Marth, ect... The only time we EVER do this is with MK and that's it. In order to get an accurate result, we need to look further into the two characters actually fighting eatch other rather than just talking about who has what on paper or in theory.

And I'm not blaming anyone, as you guy's do a great gob in offering info for Marth players. Hell, I would even say it's part my fault. There's no reason at all why I couldn't steped up, and I apoligize for not doing so.

 

[Steel]

I called you ignorant because a general consensus of your posts are just stupid and don't really contribute anything.

So what if Dedede is top tier? Falco and GW are too and Marth has the advantage over them.

And I'm not sure what match up threads you are looking at, we go a lot more in depth than that. I'll just copy paste a post from EL in the D3 discussion thread.

------
Marth's Advantages

- Faster in attack speed and running speed
- Greater aerial mobility
- Able to pressure Dedede really well
- Has a CG into DB at lower percents
- Has some nasty edgeguarding strats on Dedede
- Can punish all of Dedede's ground moves on block other then F-smash
- Nair can be used as a safe spammable kill move since Dedede is tall and fat


Dedede's advantages

- Can live very long thanks to his great weight
- Has a projectile
- Has a CG on Marth that works at any percent and can always be ended with f-tilt
- Great recovery and has nasty edgeguarding tricks on Marth
- Can easily punish sloppy play with CG and u-tilt which will kill at low percents
- F-tilt can shut down ground approaches and outranges all of Marth's ground moves.
- Has great grab range.


This match is Marth's offense vs Dedede's defense. Dedede's main tools on stage will be his projectile, his grab, shield grabs, and his f-tilt. Marth's main tools will be fair, nair, DB, and d-tilt. The reason why most Marth's struggle in this match is because they feel like Dedede shuts down a ground approach with f-tilts and his projectiles and then when they get in they have to deal with Dedede's shield grab which leads to a CG.

So let's get some facts straight. You can SH over f-tilt and still manage to fair Dedede if you were SHing at the moment he started the f-tilt. You can also fair his projectiles except the spikey Gordos. So SH fair takes care of his two main defensive options. Still there is that pesky shield grab to contend with. Not to worry though. Alot of Marth's options outrange Dedede's grab. In fact, even Marth's jab outranges Dedede's grab. So this means that all of Marth's pressure tools are safe from shield grab when they are blocked. Just space at the tip and you will be ok. To space your fairs be sure to DI back so you will hit his shield and then go back and land safely out of grab range.

Of course we are only human and mistakes, will happen. You will get grabbed here and there and CGed when you do get grabbed. But with practice you won't get grabbed very much at all when fighting Dedede. If Dedede does get the CG off it won't be too much damage. Around the mid 20's unless it's FD in which case it could reach the high 30's or low 40's if Dedede started the CG far on one side. But this usually isn't the case. So you will usually be looking at 20 something damage.

Marth has a CG combo on Dedede at 0. It's just f-throw to f-throw to DB for around 20 something damage. Nothing crazy but it's good to know. Speaking f-throw. It's good for setting up Marth's spacing on Dedede since he is so fat and he will most likely just DI away so you can easily predict what he will do.

Also be aware that although Marth must take an offensive role in this match, he defensive game is still great. If Marth blocks an f-tilt or a projectile when he is close, he can punish with ease. I don't think he can punish a fully spaced f-tilt on block, but he can still use the time to close in and set-up his zoning. So dash into shield is still a viable option since if you block an f-tilt or a projectile you get an easy punish just remember to space well as always.

Allow me to step back and go over the proper spacing in this match. Basically you want to be close enough that Dedede can't use f-tilt or his projectile, but still far enough that you outrange his grab. This is Marth's optimal spacing in this match. Essentially at this range Dedede has no effective tools. His projectile and f-tilt would lose head to head against Marth's attacks because they come out slower. In this situation Dedede is EXTREMELY limited. He can try to dash grab or f-tilt, but that's risky. His best option is to roll away. And if you know he will try that you need only wait and then reset your zoning as he rolls. If he was foolish enough to roll behind you then it's an easy punish with DB.

Another little trick that Marth has up his sleeve in order to deal with Dedede's offense is to simply duck under his projectile. At a certain distance that starts from about 3 character lengths away from Dedede and ends at about 4 or 5 character lengths away from Dedede, Marth can duck under Dedede's projectiles and then close in while Dedede is still in his recovery animation. This distance also includes the latter half of the range of Dedede's f-tilt and a little bit more then that. So Marth can sit just outside of Dedede's f-tilt range and then he is SEVERELY limited. There is pretty much nothing he can do to attack Marth in this situation. Dedede has no approach game. If he tries to dash grab Marth can SH back to fair and swat him out. All he do is walk/roll/SH to reset his spacing which gives Marth enough time to reset his own spacing as well. And of course if Dedede attempts to f-tilt then Marth will be just outside of range and then Marth can punish.

Getting a kill on Dedede can be tough. He can live well up to 180% or higher if your kill moves aren't fresh or if you can't land a death blow. Marth's tipper d-smash can kill in the 130's while U-smash will kill in the 150's. Tipper F-smash can kill around the low 100's. But getting a kill in this match is actually easier then in other matches because thanks to Dedede's height, Marth's greatest weakness disappears. The fact that he doesn't have a safe, fast spammable kill move no longer applies here. Nair can be abused to the fullest in this match and can kill in the 130's. The key to sweetspotting the nair is to DI back after the first hit of the nair connects. Even if Nair doesn't kill it will set-up for edgeguarding.

Dedede can kill Marth alot sooner then Marth can kill him. Dedede's u-tilt can kill Marth at 100%. But honestly Dedede really can't set-up for this move vs Marth. Marth has to either do make an error and overshoot Dedede when he approachs or Dedede has to take a risk like rolling towards Marth and trying to u-tilt when Marth approaches with SH aerials. So he would have to try to predict what Marth is going to do. With good spacing and smart play Dedede won't really have any opportunities to hit with this move since Marth outranges it and will be playing the spacing game.

As far as edgeguarding goes both characters do mean things to each other. Dedede has his amazing Bair along with his multiple jumps. Marth's recovery being mediocre means that one wrong move when he is off the stage and that's it. Keep your wits about you when recovering. If Dedede tries to Bair alot don't challenge him since his Bair outranges your aerials. Instead try to airdodge past him or jump past. If your low and he tries to ledge drop bair then use your up b to plow through him. If he wants to ledge stall then use your forward B to stall then up b. Dedede also has his swallowcides so please be weary of Dedede at higher percents when he is on the ledge or off the stage.

Marth has his fair share of things he can do to Dedede when he is trying to recover. Since Dedede is so big and slow, it's not difficult to just run off and harass Dedede with fairs. Marth can also force Dedede to use an up b while hanging on the ledge. Then Marth can run under Dedede and counter. If Dedede eats it then he takes 15%. If he cancels Marth will get out his counter before Dedede recovers and then Marth can punish. If Dedede likes to try to be tricky with his up b and go for ledge grabs then you can go for the edgehug and he will die if he went for it. If he landed on the stage then you can get up and attack him or set up your zoning. You can also set Dedede up for spikes by hanging on the ledge. Dedede may try to use his jumps to go above you, in which case Marth can do ledge hopped bair or dair. Basically when edgeguarding Dedede you can almost always force him to either take damage or lose a stock.

Marth's traps work well on Dedede. Ledge trap is effective since Dedede has a mediocre ledge attack. D-tilt trap also works well since Dedede has slow movement and is limited in how he can deal with. All he can really do is roll. Juggle trap is ok, but since Dedede has multiple jumps it's not as effective as it is vs other characters. Marth has his f-throw trap when he can't do his f-throw combo. Dedede is heavy so he can't DI that far back and he probably won't jump away although he can, but that would put him in a disadvantageous position.


As far as stages go Dedede has a plethora of good counter pick options. He has Corneria, Delfino Plaza, Green Greens and Castle Siege. I suggest banning Green Greens. Easy infinites and low ceilings are just terrible. Corneria is just as bad though. Castle Siege and Delfino aren't that bad and I have beat a good Dedede in tourney on Castle Siege. You just can't play stupid when there are parts with walk-offs. Good stages for Marth are Battlefield, and any stage that has weird terrain or angle terrain like Brinstar or even Yoshis' island. The uneven ground screws up Dedede's CG timing and you won't have to worry about the CG as much. Lylat Cruise does this as well.


In terms of combat Marth has a clear advantage. He has all the tools to really limit what Dedede can do and when played well Dedede really can't punish Marth effectively. But Dedede is a tank and refuses to die. With great recovery and great weight he can take alot of punishment and wait for a chance to dish out great damage with a CG or get a kill with his u-tilt. He can also camp well thanks to his f-tilt and projectile, which can generate alot of chip damage over time. His edgeguarding is great as well thanks to multiple jumps and his bair. Still, it can't be denied that Marth has a ton of options vs Dedede and he dictates the flow of the match. Dedede's survivability certainly helps, but Marth's options are enough to put it slightly in his favor IMO. I say this match is about 55/45 in Marth's favor., but that may change in the future. It may even be 6/4.


Here are some random tidbits of info that you will find interesting.

- You can attack waddle dees and waddle doos to refresh your moves. Try using repeated forward b hits so they don't fly far when hit.

- If Dedede used any of his aerial jumps above a platform he won't be able to fall through it unless he is higher then the peak height of his normal full jump. If he tries he will just get a hard landing on the platform. He can still fall through normally with a SH, or a regular full jump.

- Waddle Dees do 5%. Waddle Doo's do 7%. Gordo's do 22%.

- A Gordo can kill around 75%.

- Dedede's f-tilt does about 6% and put's Dedede at frame disadvantage on hit when used at close range. So if he hits you with it when you are close you can still punish him before he recovers from his attack animation.
------

How is that not in depth? We go through all the characters options and what both can do to stop them. Heck Emblem Lord doesn't even think it's even, at least at the point in time when he wrote this. But both boards can agree that it's 5:5.

If you have anything to say about the match up we are willing to listen and see what you have to say, or else we wouldn't be bothering with this Pit discussion when inui bumped it.

 

[grandmaster192]

@Steel

That was a very good write up, but you still don't have to around insulting me for no reason. I've never disrespected you once.

But even after reading all of that, i still think it's 6:4 DDD.

Marth has moves that can attack DDD's shield safely, I agree, but what about DDD's amazing dodge? Marth's hit boxes are so quick. Once they start, they're also over. Yet, he still has to deal with the lag and the fact that his hurt box is usually exposed. EL is absulotely right when says Marth can safely attack his shield. However, he's not nearly as safe against DDD's spot dodge. SHF, even perfectly spaced, is not a safe approach against DDD because of his dodge. It can and will be punished. Marth is usually safe on block against most characters, but good dodging can give him problems do to the nature of his hitboxes.

In this case, DDD's dodge is so quick and it's lagless, so he can do things like dodge then ftilt to punish landing lag. This will even work against against nair because his dodge will dodge both hits in one dodge. So Marth DOES NOT have a safe kill move against DDD.

Advantages that EL listed:

- Can live very long thanks to his great weight
- Has a projectile
- Has a CG on Marth that works at any percent and can always be ended with f-tilt
- Great recovery and has nasty edgeguarding tricks on Marth
- Can easily punish sloppy play with CG and u-tilt which will kill at low percents
- F-tilt can shut down ground approaches and outranges all of Marth's ground moves.
- Has great grab range.

Now, add that, unlike against most other characters, Marth doesn't have anything that's guaranteed to be safe against against DDD. Also, Marth's biggest weaknesses -- no safe kill moves and medocre recovery -- are exposed in this match up more than they are against ANY other character in this game, since DDD can live to high % and has a lot of ledge gaurding options against Marth.

As I've said before: I believe this to be 6:4 DDD. Marth's options are so limited in this match up and his weaknesses are easily taken advantage of.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Saying that the Marth boards doesn't go in depth is just ridiculous.

Since the game came out the Marth boards has had had fairly accurate match-ups and good match-up discussion.

And how we analyze match-ups is the best way. You look at options and see how effective each character's tools are on each other.

What other more effective method exist?

Anyway, the match-up is very debateable, but don't pull garbage out of your ***.

Marth can attack Dedede safely. He has Nair, d-tilt and fair.

So...what are you talking about? If you think it's 6/4 that's fine. But to say that the Marth boards doesn't go in-depth or some other such nonsense is just silly.

If it's your opinion then man the hell up and say so. Don't say the Marth boards doesn't know what it's doing because time and again people have come from other character boards and said that our analysis' are spot on and very through and detailed.

 

[grandmaster192]

Saying that the Marth boards doesn't go in depth is just ridiculous.

Since the game came out the Marth boards has had had fairly accurate match-ups and good match-up discussion.

And how we analyze match-ups is the best way. You look at options and see how effective each character's tools are on each other.

What other more effective method exist?

Anyway, the match-up is very debateable, but don't pull garbage out of your ***.

Marth can attack Dedede safely. He has Nair, d-tilt and fair.

So...what are you talking about? If you think it's 6/4 that's fine. But to say that the Marth boards doesn't go in-depth or some other such nonsense is just silly.

If it's your opinion then man the hell up and say so. Don't say the Marth boards doesn't know what it's doing because time and again people have come from other character boards and said that our analysis' are spot on and very through and detailed.

All of the moves you mentioned as safe can be punished out of his dodge. Thus, none of them are safe. You're really just relying on mind games in this match up, because nothing safe is gauranteed against DDD with Marth. The moves you mentioned are safe against his shield, I'm not even argueing that. What I'm trying to explain is how effective his dodge is against Marth, and how much it limits his options.

And you guys are really mis understanding what I said about not going in-depth with match ups >.<.

 

[bludhoundz]

Spot dodge is NOT safe against Marth.

DB punishes it very effectively.

D3 can use it if Marth approaches with a fair or nair, but if you're dtilting him, spotdodge is an awful idea. Also you can fair twice in one SH -- while normally unsafe, if your opponent spotdodges, it can hit them on the way back out. Also if he spotdodges fair or nair, you can FF it so you land before he can punish.

D3 isn't like ROB or MK where he can throw out a 4-6 frame Dsmash after spotdodging -- he's got nothing quick enough to throw out when you're pressuring him at the right range, so the spotdodge doesn't really get him anywhere even if he does successfully dodge your attack.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Well spaced fair, nair or d-tilt is safe when Dedede spot dodges. They cover the options of shielding and dodging and rolling. This is what makes them good moves.

They only way you get grabbed after a fair or nair is spot dodged is if you don't DI back as you do the aerial so Marth pulls back.

And I think you are just pulling crap out of your *** when you say in-depth. I don't think you know what you are tlaking about, but because you want to validate your opinion (which is unneccessary as it's an opinion) you say things like how the Marth boards doesn't go in depth.

Do a d-tilt, if he spot dodged you can roll away before he can grab you or use DB. If he dodged the aerial you are still ok. Will you always be ok? No. People make mistakes with spacing and timing, but when you play well and have control over your character, these mistakes will be minimized.

 

[grandmaster192]

@Blud

What are some of Marth's options while dtilting DDD? Seriously, I'll take any help I can get vs DDD.

Dancing blade against DDD's spot dodge isn't the best idea from my experience. He has NO lag after his dodge. if you DB against it, he can come out of his dodge with a shield grab. You don't want that to happen.

You CAN NOt afford to double fair into DDD. I'm not doing that. He doesn't have stupid quick attacks, but he has his ftilt. If I'm wrong about this stuff, I NEED TO KNOW.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Everyone lags and has vulnerability frames after a spot dodge.

EVERYONE. DDD has less then other character's yes, but they are still there.

DDD's f-tilt? The move that puts him at frame disadvantage on hit when in close range?

No Dedede wil do this when someone is close. They would opt to roll away or attempt to grab which would lose outright if Marth is attacking anyway.

If you FORCED a dodge with a d-tilt then Dedede is at your mercy. The moment before his I-frames end do an attack like another d-tilt or DB.

 

[da K.I.D.]

someone needs to change the title back to D3

 

[grandmaster192]

EL I'm assuming you have experience vs M2K's DDD, am I right? How well do you do against him or other DDD's?

I'm going to try the dtilt traps you bring up though, I hope that will help because DDD is giving me more problems than MK is. >.<

So it's pretty much a sure DB when he dodges a dtilt?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I have never played his D3 in tourney.

I have played another D3 in tourney named Atomsk who places high in NJ. We have only played each other 3 times in tourney. First two times I won. The second time he won. Our matches were close.

And, yes I fished out his rolls and dodges with SHFF fairs and d-tilts so I could punish. A basic, but effective strategy. Especially since once you close in Dedede can only really attempt a grab, so if you outpsace that he is forced to roll or dash grab.

 

[Inui]

lol @ Marth only losing "slightly" to Meta Knight and going even with Dedede and Snake

And I think this is why you have to rely on other characters to get you through tournaments inui, how does that make you a top marth player? I'm seriously trying to figure that out. Perhaps you aren't giving him enough credit because you can't figure out how to beat top tier characters with him?

I've beaten plenty of users of those characters with Marth.

Steel2nd, please come to a tournament and beat Yes!'s Snake with Marth, Atomsk's Dedede with Marth, and then teh_spamerer's Meta Knight with Marth to show me it's so even.

@Kashif: I see Marcel sent you here and then you brought Jesse, LOL. You win.

 

[grandmaster192]

Inui, Marth can do some nasty things to Snake that really can piss a Snake player off. But then again, snake is snake. I think it's even. Marth has plenty of options vs snake, more than enough to compete with him.

I do think vs MK Marth is at a 6:4 against MK and 6/4 vs DDD. those are his only bad match ups IMO. He pretty much even goes even with a lot of other with slight advantages against lesser characters. He should have a rock solid match up chart, but nothing too **** like MK's. That's how I see things.