Match-Up Discussion #8! Pit

[feardragon64]

I'll let someone else analyze all your points since I do find flaws with some of them(I'm typing on iphone)

But even if I we were to say that it all is true, would you accept the fact that it's difficult to DO all of those consistently in a match and it's a matter of being skillful enough to know when to do what on the fly?

Unfortunatly, that would be a rather optimistic view of marth and there are some exagerations in what you've said. But again, iPhone and my battery is going to die soon anyways.

 

[Turbo Ether]

I'll let someone else analyze all your points since I do find flaws with some of them(I'm typing on iphone)

But even if I we were to say that it all is true, would you accept the fact that it's difficult to DO all of those consistently in a match and it's a matter of being skillful enough to know when to do what on the fly?

Unfortunatly, that would be a rather optimistic view of marth and there are some exagerations in what you've said. But again, iPhone and my battery is going to die soon anyways.

Yes, they are exaggerations, that's exactly the point.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Um yea, the key thing that keeps marth from winning touneys is zoning. Its easier said then done. Characters have options to make this difficult for marth (marth is pure close range combat FYI). If marth stays in the zone, its an uphill battle for the opponent. Snake and MK have moves that allow them to stay a little further away and still have options to whip out on the fly (Snake has nades, C4, and mines, MK is just d*** fast).

 

[feardragon64]

Yes, they are exaggerations, that's exactly the point.

I mean you're exaggerating OUR words.

Again, can't write long posts as I want to, so I'll give you an example:

We did not say marth is ungimpable. We merely said that PIT does not have the utilities to have an advantage in gimping him. The odds are against PIT in gimping marth because he does not have the tools to counter this.

Also, the scenario where we were talking about pit gimping marth was where pit uses down-b to reflect marth's dolphin slash by dropping off the stage. I don't think it's an exaggeration on our part to say that pit eventually has to come out of his down-b and recover from the distance fallen, and Marth can stall long enough for it to become an issue for Pit(or at least to the point where Pit is too far below for Marth to worry about dolphin slashing to the edge)

 

[BacklashMarth]

I agree with dragon. I think that if pit wants to risk reflecting a dolphin slash, marth shouldnt have a problem with it. Doesnt the shield have to touch marth when pit pulls it out in order to reverse up B? If so then marth can use DB when pit gets close ( marth may or may not get turned around but he still gets a vertical boost) then dolphin slash in either direction accordingly. Pit will probably be stage spiked or he may be incredibly low below the stage giving marth time to set up a ledgetrap or a spike.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Gimp was the wrong word, I should've said edgeguard.

Um yea, the key thing that keeps marth from winning touneys is zoning. Its easier said then done. Characters have options to make this difficult for marth.

Thank you for grasping a major point of my exercise.

 

[feardragon64]

Firstly, yay laptop for actual responses.

Match Ups are determined by two top level players of equal skill, we are taking in all of both characters options and seeing what would happen on paper

^This in case you were refering to the "easier said than done"

Thank you for grasping a major point of my exercise.

Again, I've already said that we didn't say Marth was ungimpable or that characters couldn't make it more difficult for marth. As far as I can see, the only real point in time where gimping marth was really discussed was the proposition that Pit could reflect Marth with his down-b to prevent his recovery, and to this it was only responded that this could not only be preventable(this being a gimp), but it could actually turn in favor of marth who could stage spike Pit or end up below Marth(who would be on a ledge)as if HE was the one recovering.

As I've said before, you're exaggerating the points that were made by us. Just because we said Pit would be unadvantaged by trying to gimp in the way described before with down b off the stage, doesn't mean we support the idea that Marth CANNOT be gimped by Pit(nobody has made an opinion on that really, though I do think Pit is severly limited in options for gimping Marth). In other words, just because we say something is true for one situation, doesn't mean we think it should be applied for every situation.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Actual response from me too, since i'm now on a PC instead of the Wii Browser.

Again, I've already said that we didn't say Marth was ungimpable or that characters couldn't make it more difficult for marth. As far as I can see, the only real point in time where gimping marth was really discussed was the proposition that Pit could reflect Marth with his down-b to prevent his recovery, and to this it was only responded that this could not only be preventable(this being a gimp), but it could actually turn in favor of marth who could stage spike Pit or end up below Marth(who would be on a ledge)as if HE was the one recovering.

As I've said before, you're exaggerating the points that were made by us. Just because we said Pit would be unadvantaged by trying to gimp in the way described before with down b off the stage, doesn't mean we support the idea that Marth CANNOT be gimped by Pit(nobody has made an opinion on that really, though I do think Pit is severly limited in options for gimping Marth). In other words, just because we say something is true for one situation, doesn't mean we think it should be applied for every situation.

You keep going on and on about Marth/Pit gimping, which I never spoke on. I already corrected myself, when I said I meant "edge guarding" and not gimping. The statement you just quoted has nothing to do with what you just posted. Look at the context of my quote in regards to what I quoted. And my list of exaggerations were based on multiple threads and posts in general, not the Marth vs Pit matchup specifically, in which I haven't commented at all. This was quite clear when I said...

The way people describe Marth's options and properties in these matchup threads

 

[feardragon64]

Eh, then it's a difference of opinion that can be talked about outside of this board. I thought it was specific to pit so I was addressing it here.

Also, for the edge guarding vs. gimping, just replace everywhere I said gimp with edge guard. I'm too lazy to edit my post, not to mention I started posting it before you edited yours.

As for the "quoting you had nothing to do with what you said", it was more just a way to refer that I was talking to you(obvious I know but still). That and referring to my previous argument about the Pit/Marth gimp/edge guard/whatever. I was trying to say that you hadn't really answered what I had said there. But now that you've made it clear you believe it's not just about Pit, it changes my answer.

It also changes the location of it as I've said. Let's stay on topic. I still disagree with your viewpoint of the marth boards viewing Marth as some sort of god tier(take a look at posts in the IC discussion even), but I'll let it drop. If this isn't about Pit, it doesn't belong here.

 

[Inui]

Um, there are other characters whom marth has to approach who have spammy stunny projectiles *cough* falco *cough*. In this match, marth can abuse counter because no one should be scared to get grabbed by pit (not like he has an infinite chain grab). Unless the pit is short or full hopping his sparrows, marth has multiple options to get around them. Also, it may just be me but pits arrows seem really laggy to me (i literally see pit pull back the bow in slow motion). I aim for a midway point where pit feels safe to spam arrows but i can reach him with a SHairdodge or SHdouble fair (fair the arrow, fair pit).My best friend mains pit and i have not problem approaching him and punishing. The glide attack is always met with a counter or u-smash.

-Falco's lightweight, and a fast faller, so once you get in on him, you can mess him up more than you can mess Pit up. Pit can reflect your attacks and punish you with a 19 damage, high damage, 4 frame move, or grab you and toss you away while doing 12 damage. Falco can...jab you.
-I'm scared of being grabbed by Pit. His throws do a lot of damage and when he throws you away from him he gets to camp you more.
-Smart Pit players won't use arrows at a range they are punishable. They'd just...run away more, which Marth has trouble handling.

That being said, i do think this match CAN be close. However, im leaning towards marth because i have yet to see a pit **** marth in the last 6 months and i dont see pit as a threat anymore when i face him.

I want to play you.

Of course, however DS OoS is only to be used when your opponent is in a vulnerable position and cannot shield.

And why would Pit ever be in such a situation when he doesn't have to approach Marth to damage him? Attacking shields in general is stupid in this game.

Why would Pit be approaching in this match anyway? Even then, if someone was to approach Marth he can keep them out and basically camp them with his sword, depending on the character.

lol, you agree. Pit shouldn't approach much.

Marth camping with his sword doesn't actually damage you. Pit's camping can damage you and it forces you into a defensive position no matter what, be it shielding, rolling, sidestepping, or airdodging. Then Pit gets to punish that.

Yes, Marth has no safe kill moves except for maybe tipper nair.. if you can even call that a kill move. But I'm sure you know Marth won't be just shoving out kill moves once Pit gets at a high %, he'll be smart about it.

Yes, he will be smart about.

Explain how an intelligent Pit player that camps you will ever be in a situation where Marth can safely use one of his kill moves. Theoretically, Pit would almost never approach Marth.

Match Ups are determined by two top level players of equal skill, we are taking in all of both characters options and seeing what would happen on paper.

The problem is that 0 top level Pits exist to really know what he's capable of. I know my Pit is very good and definitely one of the best ones out there, but I'm not Mew2King or Azen, so...

Marth can do the same with other attacks. He also shouldn't be getting hit by a Pit fsmash unless he makes a big mistake in spacing.

Even perfect spacing can be punished. Even Marth's tippers can be reflected by Pit's d-b, which means Pit gets a free hit. If Marth overspaces, he gets hit. If he gets too close, he gets hit. It's not looking good for him.

Being forced to approach in this abysmal game = instant disadvantage.

Easily punished by up b OoS.

Not if it's spaced behind Marth.

Umm, ok? Marth can control platforms just as well if not better.

Pit's u-air = guaranteed shieldstab.

Marth's platform control is indeed good, though.

Well yeah, but what happens once Marth gets too close for Pit to spam arrows?

Marth was obviously forced into taking a defensive option in order to get close.

Pit can call the airdodge or roll and punish such a thing very easily. These are Marth's worst options when it comes to getting near Pit. Even if the Pit doesn't expect it, it's easy to react to.

If Marth powershields an arrow, and the Pit is smart enough to stop shooting once Marth close enough to punish him, what does Marth do? Stand there? Approaching is unsafe.

And why not mention dtilt? Marth's 1st or second safest move on block?

D-tilt is his best option, but the follow-ups for that are not guaranteed and it doesn't kill or do real damage.

I was also referring to moves that are either extremely fast or rather large, which d-tilt is neither. It's indeed a solid option, but poking Pit once =/= a big deal at all.

Up b OoS either way.

This was referring to the characters in general and not the match-up, but I'll give you that.

By your logic, Marth can do the same exact thing and completely shut down Pit with his counter.

No.

-Pit has arrows. He forces Marth to approach and go on the offensive, which means no shieldcamping for him.
-Shields shrink quickly and you can poke through them a lot. Marth can't just stay in his shield and wait, but Pit can just run away and shoot arrows forever.

Being forced to attack means Marth doesn't have the same defensive and campy options that Pit does.

It's not even that, it's Marth's pure zoning alone that makes Pit almost helpless unless he runs away, and with Marth's speed he should be able to keep the distance close.

A 4 frame, high damage, good knockback move with underrated range disagrees with this.

Have you really looked at the size of Pit's f-smash and how good that move is? Even Mew2King cries about it when I play him with Pit.

With crap range.

Oh no @ missing with one of Pit's smashes when the opponent is too far away to get hit. They have almost no recovery time, so it's a pain to punish them anyways. Marth's have a lot of recovery time.

Like I said, if that is what is going to happen why can't Marth just use counter and do the same thing? His down b won't have a huge impact in this match, if at all.

Marth's forced to approach.

Pit stays away and shoots arrows while standing there looking prettier than Marth. Marth gets agitated because he thinks he's cuter than Pit, but Pit just taunts him more by staying away from him and shooting his little fairy bow. Marth has to take some sort of defensive option to get near Pit, and then he must attack Pit or force Pit to run away. The latter obviously is a terrible idea. Marth must attack, and attacking in this game sucks. Pit's not scared of a spaced d-tilt or f-tilt on shield.

Because it's impossible to avoid and see this coming amirite? >_>

I don't know the exact range on this move when perfectly spaced, but if it isn't as good as Meta's glide attack it should be able to get hit by up b out of shield.

It has what appears to be 1-2 frames more of recovery time and start-up time, but it still has a lot of size and priority.

Just randomly doing it is obviously a terrible idea.

If Marth is approaching Pit, which he's forced to, Pit can short hop glide attack, which will crush any of Marth's aerials.

You make it sound like getting past these arrows is near impossible. SHAD, simply jumping around, perfect shield approach, rolling, etc.

Pit can't compete up close with Marth's zoning simply BECAUSE of his lack of range.

Forward b is a simply smash DI, though if you keep it going Marth can up b and hit Pit back out.

It's perfectly possible. That doesn't change the fact that it puts Marth in the worser situations.

Characters that have to approach can't handle Marth's zoning that well besides Meta Knight. Pit can handle it because he forces Marth to take defensive options and then mount an offensive. Pit's jab is deceptively big and extremely fast and safe. There's a good option right there once Marth gets close. Because this game sucks, Marth can just poke Pit...and then he gets knocked away or runs away because combos don't exist, and that's it. Marth must then repeat the same cycle of being put on defense and taking risks.

Only a stupid Pit would continue using the move after it should be stopped.

Absolutely, how else can Pit win this match? Marth's speed however can make it so Pit can't get too far away and once he can reset his zoning Pit is once again in a tight spot with not much to do.

Pit doesn't beat anyone without camping. It's the nature of the character and the game.

What exactly does Marth do to Pit that is so terrible for him? F-b him once and then pressure him? While Marth is pressuring Pit, he has to be absolutely perfect or he eats a strong 4 frame move.

Oh come on, you play Marth.. right?

And you're being way too general here.. "<insert random super fast move>". Marth has no way to out prioritize/outrange/avoid this so Pit can just run away again?

Yup.

I'm referring to Pit's moveset, which includes many fast and hard to punish moves.

65:35 Marth.

LMAO

Marth isn't good enough to counter a character in the same tier as him that badly. In fact, Marth isn't good enough to counter anything that badly unless they are C tier or below.

By this way of thinking why doesn't Falco destroy Marth? That match is already 60:40 Marth and Falco boards agree.

-Falco kills at higher damage than Pit does.
-Falco dies at lower damage than Pit does.
-Marth actually sorta has "combos" and edgeguard set-ups on Falco, while the same can't be said about his match-up with Pit.
-Falco's biggest positive, his chaingrabbing, is neutralized by Marth.

What does this mean? The amount of work Marth has to do against Pit far exceeds the amount of work he has to do against Falco.

I disagree with the 60/40 ruling. I've played D1's Falco in tourny many times, and he's probably the second best Falco. Falco can handle Marth and camp the mess out of him. Fighting super campy characters/players = a pain in the ass with Marth.

I understand what Pit is capable of by understanding the mechanics of gameplay - the physics engine, Pit's moves, hitboxes, and while not very accurate, a rough idea of how quick or slow his moves are (not as good as frame data I suppose). The number of people maining Pit has NOTHING to do with these things. Pit is a preconstructed character, you can't say he will get better when someone else uses him. We can already see what he is capable of.

Do you know how stupid this sounds?

This would mean that a tier list could be formed on the day a game is released and be accurate.

Sorry, things don't work that way. The human element needs to be taken into account, in which case Pit's true potential as a tournament character is virtually unknown. No top players are using him.

How are you going to land a bair? Marth outranges Pit's bair with his fair and bair, by a significant amount. Fsmash? You're only going to land that as a punishment, because yet again you won't be able to get close enough in for Fsmash to hit Marth. Honestly, Pit has a couple stronger killing moves, but in this matchup, they are less safe than Marth's. Also Marth has gimps in this matchup, and can kill with a tipper fair or bair quite easily.

You land the b-air after Marth does <insert laggy smash attack or aerial near Pit that misses> or after Marth does <insert defensive option he's forced to take while approaching> if the Pit player guesses right.

How are Pit's faster smashes with less recovery time somehow less safe?

Pit's gimps > Marth's.

-D-b Marth's u-b, which is instant death.
-Punish Marth's airdodge with a b-air, which is guaranteed even if Marth airdodges a b-air successfully.
-Fire arrows at him while he's recovering to force airdodges and do damage, which will force him to go lower.
-If Marth is under the ledge, a timed edgehog will either kill him or force him to land on the stage, and every time he lands on the stage he either gets thrown back off or f-smashed.

How do arrows apply shield pressure when they can just be perfect shielded or dodged?

Then how is anything considered shield pressure?

You can't attack Marth's shield with Pit. It's asking to be DS'd in the face.

Arrows and grabbing.

If Marth is throwing out a smash when Pit is not in lag frames from a previous attack, you are playing a Marth who has made a very poor choice. Marth uses his smashes as PUNISHMENT moves after the opponent has thrown out a laggy attack. Okay, say you down b a dtilt. Marth is turned around. Wow. Big deal, Marth can turn around before Pit can do anything, thanks to his dtilts IASA frames. Punish that.

What lag frames will Pit have to get punished by Marth's 10 frame+ smashes?

Oh no @ getting poked by d-tilt.

If any of Marth's other moves get d-b'd by Pit, he gets hit by f-smash or b-air or is thrown away.

I'm not sure about the logistics of this, but if you're on the stage and you use your down b, and I am sweetspotting the edge with my up b, I don't see how I'm going to be gimped. If you drop off the stage to use down b against me, then you're asking for me to wait until you release down b, at which point I will Dolphin Slash, stage spiking you.

Time to play...THEORY SMASH BROS.!

-Pit can drop down with the d-b, but release it right away and edgehog Marth, which kills him or forces him to land on the stage and eat an attack.
-Pit can do the above by feinting the d-b.
-Pit can tech the stage spike.

Face it: Once Marth is in a situation where he's recovering, he's in big trouble.

dtilt is spammable. ftilt cannot be punished if spaced properly. Shieldbreaker as a mixup - but yes it does have considerable lag time. You better hope you chose to spotdodge instead of shield though.

D-tilt isn't going to do anything to Pit.

F-tilt is punishable by dash attack.

Shielding shieldbreaker is actually safe if your shield isn't already diminished, and it does no damage to a properly done powershield.

Pit can't use his smashes if he can't get close enough to Marth to use them. The low cooldown time means next to nothing. He can only uses smashes as punishment, you can't just throw them out all the time or you're just going to get *****.

People make mistakes.

Marth makes a mistake, and he gets hit by a 19 damage move with good knockback and then he's forced to approach Pit again.

Pit makes a mistake, and he gets f-b'd or knocked away by something else, which often just puts him where he wants to be anyways: away from someone.

Because of Brawl's terrible design, Marth can't do anything to Pit even when he gets near him. He can hit him once. That's it. Then the gay cycle of camping continues.

Agreed. Marth will be approaching Pit. Once he finishes approaching and remains outside of Pit's range, Pit will be hard pressed to land a hit on him, unless he goes further away from Marth (to use arrows), or GET INSIDE OF MARTH's range, which is going to be difficult to do if Marth isn't throwing out laggy attacks.

Well, there you go. Marth is forced to approach. That's already a problem and makes calling the match in Marth's favour pretty ridiculous. It's not like Pit is terrible like Link, so approaching is actually bad in this match since they both **** each other's approaches.

Why is Pit hard pressed to land a hit on Marth when Marth is near him? Powershielding is incredibly gay and hit-stun literally does not exist. Marth can be punished after successfully hitting Pit. That's how gay the game is. Pit can randomly sidestep something Marth does and then f-smash him.

Marth is one of the best characters at running up and past projectiles. Simply run, and then use a combination of powershields, spotdodges and SH air dodges to avoid the spam until you're in range. Okay, your moves are fast. But what if I stop running away once I'm in dtilt range? You won't hit me. Yes, Pit's moves have decent range. You may say I am underestimating the range, but the fact remains that Marth does outrange him and with a good spacing game, they will whiff the air in front of Marth. Fb is just going to get shield -> dolphin slashed.

If outranging someone determined who won a match-up, then Sheik would beat Fox in Melee and lose to Marth. We all know this is clearly false and the match-ups actually are the other way around. Why is this? Fox doesn't even really have superior speed and he gets gimped. The advantage comes from the nasty stuff Fox can do to her with waveshines and *gasp* Fox forcing her to approach due to lasers. Marth loses to Sheik due to silly combos and *gasp* being forced to approach due to needles. There's much more to matches than range, and that's something Marth players need to realize. Marth isn't that good. He's middle of A tier material and most certainly not S tier. He's good, but not as good as people think.

I don't see how Marth is in a bad situation. If he is good he will only have to deal with a few seconds of arrow spam before he closes the gap and arrows are no longer viable. Once in this position, Marth is at an advantage, and Pit will have trouble getting in or getting away.

Not being attacked > having projectiles spammed at you.

Pit's in the better situation.

Okay, so I'll get close to you, and you'll roll, dodge or jump, when I haven't activate a move. You're asking to be punished. Okay, you're using a quick move.. wait, I'm standing out of range.. sorry. Marth is not going to be throwing out laggy moves when he's rushing you down. His Fsmash and Dsmash are used for PUNISHING, for the last time. He will not approach you with these. His long ranged moves like dtilt and ftilt don't have enough cooldown to be punished, especially since they outrange Pit.

Why would Pit be the one rolling or dodging? He had nothing to worry about. Marth is the one that had to block or dodge something.

D-tilt is safe but it does nothing. If Pit powershields it, he can actually f-b Marth and just stop the f-b as soon as it can be stopped and he's safe. Oh no.

F-tilt gets punished by dash attack.

Yet MK, the character that is always forced to approach, is the best character in the game. I don't see your logic here

Meta Knight is the best character because he's allowed to approach. He's the only character with such a luxury.

Why?

He has tons of mega-priority moves that beat virtually anything else, his range is solid, and his moves are both fast and lacking in recovery time.

Marth, as well as every other member of the cast, lacks this good luck.

The way people describe Marth's options and properties in these matchup threads, you would think Marth was easily the 2nd best character in the game.

Examples excluding MK:
1. Can't really touch Marth's shield without getting UpB'd or punished in some other way.

2. Impossible to outspace because of Fair camping and because of the speed, range and IASA frames of Dtilt.

3. Impossible to punish, because his range and speed allows him to safely space everything perfectly and his laggy moves are only used for punishing.

4. Projectiles are ineffective, because Marth just dodges(both kinds), shields(both kinds), cancels and jumps over them, and then zones you at close range.

5. Can't gimp him because of sideB stalling, neutralB, and the invincibility frames and stage spiking of upB.

6. Can't attempt any aerial approaches, because Marth is always waiting there with frame advantage, ready to stuff you with fair.

7. MK is his only disadvantaged matchup. Everything else is even or in his favor. According to the matchup index his matchups against high and top are even quite a bit better than Snake's, who is currently #2 on the tier list.

These are the impressions I get from this board, so why isn't Marth winning more tournaments? I'm not trying to be a ****, I just think this is controversial.

Marth is overrated.

The best Marth in the world gets 9th or 13th at big tournaments now. That's how limited Marth is.

Marth is only amazing in "Theory Smash Bros." where he u-b's everything and never messes up his spacing.

Oh, wait, even in these scenerios you can DI down and tech the u-b in place and then easily punish Marth.

Wow, even in theory he's not that special.

We merely said that PIT does not have the utilities to have an advantage in gimping him. The odds are against PIT in gimping marth because he does not have the tools to counter this.

Pit's recovery is amazing and he's heavier. He's much better at living in this match-up.

Marth's recovery is one of the easiest to edgehog in the game.

Also, the scenario where we were talking about pit gimping marth was where pit uses down-b to reflect marth's dolphin slash by dropping off the stage. I don't think it's an exaggeration on our part to say that pit eventually has to come out of his down-b and recover from the distance fallen, and Marth can stall long enough for it to become an issue for Pit(or at least to the point where Pit is too far below for Marth to worry about dolphin slashing to the edge)

A simple edgehog will also suffice.

 

[BacklashMarth]

I would play you online inui if i thought it would prove much (im pretty sure im not at ur skill level). My marth needs some serious polish and wifi would just make the **** (or semi ****) that much more worse. And if marth never messed up his spacing, he would easily **** many characters (save some top tier characters). Its just so d*** hard to keep good spacing as i said before in this thread or another. But in all seriousness pits arrows are a nice camping tool and all but marth will approach ASAP making them nothing more than a delay with chip damage tacked on. Sure u can gimp with arrows but this match isnt purely a gimping match. Pretty much the matchup goes like this: Marth gets past arrrow spam and into optimal range = win for marth, Pit plays an INCREDIBLE camping/gimping game and severely punishes marths mistakes = win for pit.

 

[Inui]

We can play in person. I travel for tournaments a lot.

Almost everyone seems to think Marth wins this match slightly.

Mew2King says it's "annoying" for Marth but he states that Marth is a bit better as a character overall.
Atomsk agrees with me that Pit wins slightly.
teh_spamerer thinks Marth wins slightly.

All three of them are highly knowledgable and skilled players, so lol.

Even if I'm wrong, debating is fun and I can learn a lot from it. If I'm proven wrong, it can only help me get better.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

you said this:

The problem is that 0 top level Pits exist to really know what he's capable of. I know my Pit is very good and definitely one of the best ones out there, but I'm not Mew2King or Azen, so...

however, there is one pit that is top level his name is Danny aka Cdoc...check him out.

 

[BacklashMarth]

We can play in person. I travel for tournaments a lot.

Almost everyone seems to think Marth wins this match slightly.

Mew2King says it's "annoying" for Marth but he states that Marth is a bit better as a character overall.
Atomsk agrees with me that Pit wins slightly.
teh_spamerer thinks Marth wins slightly.

All three of them are highly knowledgable and skilled players, so lol.

Even if I'm wrong, debating is fun and I can learn a lot from it. If I'm proven wrong, it can only help me get better.

Well you are gonna have to do a majority of the mobility seeing how 1) i am in college right now and 2) i have a severe lack of drivers liscence or vehicle. Whenever you're in Sacramento, let me know and i will see what i can do. I havent seen or heard about any tournaments around her lately tho.

 

[bludhoundz]

The way people describe Marth's options and properties in these matchup threads, you would think Marth was easily the 2nd best character in the game.

Examples excluding MK:
1. Can't really touch Marth's shield without getting UpB'd or punished in some other way.

2. Impossible to outspace because of Fair camping and because of the speed, range and IASA frames of Dtilt.

3. Impossible to punish, because his range and speed allows him to safely space everything perfectly and his laggy moves are only used for punishing.

4. Projectiles are ineffective, because Marth just dodges(both kinds), shields(both kinds), cancels and jumps over them, and then zones you at close range.

5. Can't gimp him because of sideB stalling, neutralB, and the invincibility frames and stage spiking of upB.

6. Can't attempt any aerial approaches, because Marth is always waiting there with frame advantage, ready to stuff you with fair.

7. MK is his only disadvantaged matchup. Everything else is even or in his favor. According to the matchup index his matchups against high and top are even quite a bit better than Snake's, who is currently #2 on the tier list.

These are the impressions I get from this board, so why isn't Marth winning more tournaments? I'm not trying to be a ****, I just think this is controversial.

The problem with the analysis made in these threads is that it is theoretical. It is based off of the highest level of play between ideal players who make a minimal number of mistakes.

This is the best way I can think of to analyze characters, because it doesn't take the skill of the players into account (they are set at as high a level as possible), and it assumes that the character's full potential is being used.

That is the reason that these points seem exaggerated - of course in a real match between two non excellent players who are Marth and Pit the advantage for Marth might be less drastic and maybe even non existent. But at high level play this is not the case.

Also Marth would not be #2. He doesn't have any "bad" matchups other than MK, but not a lot of his matchups are that advantageous. Some characters like D3, Falco and G&W simply have destructive matchups where the opponent has very low chance of winning. Marth doesn't have any of these, he really only has a slight advantage on a lot of characters, and a bunch of even matchups (and the disv on MK, perhaps one or two other characters too, haven't really decided to analyze all the matchups and think of my own opinion).

You can basically test if these theoretical analyses are true by taking the example of MK. He is a super buffed Marth -- no projectile, but has a disjointed hitbox with great range and priority, and he's fast with a bunch of quick moves. Marth doesn't have the insane recovery or any of MK's super spammable moves, which is why he's not nearly as good, and he's also not as small. Now tell me if MK is good at rushdown, good at dodging projectiles, zoning and punishing. He is, right? Well Marth basically has similar properties, just not as beastly. I'm not trying to argue against originality or characters or anything, it's not like ganon / cpt falcon with the same moveset, weight, size and all that stuff, just a similar usage to the character in a lot of situations (onstage mostly, offstage MK > Marth by a lot more). If you consider it, Marth, in the hands of a high level player, won't really have the disadvantage against too many characters.

If you actually utilize zoning the way these analysis posts suggest, he would be a very difficult character to play against in many matchups. The reason he seems over represented in this thread, yet again, is because not that many people have taken it to this level on the tournament scale with Marth (though there are definitely some good players).

You can argue that a player who isn't pro level with Marth won't have such a good matchup against Pit, and whoever else. You would be right. But this is a character comparison, not a skill level of opponents comparison. You have to assume near perfection so that the character is being used to full potential.

Edit: Inui, mock my arguments if you want, but I didn't stoop to that level against you. I really don't see the point in insulting me. I do not think Marth ***** Pit. I think he has an advantage. I read your post, and I agree with some of the things you said, but you seem to think that some of my arguments are ridiculous. You posted bair as a safe kill move for Pit. Then you claimed it should be used for punishment. Seriously, a punishment move isn't a safe move. It's safe to use as a punishment, but that makes the timing of your usage safe, not the move itself. Please do not say that just because I'm speaking theoretically I don't know what I'm talking about. I am sure you would beat me in a match, simply because I have less experience than you. However that doesn't mean that I haven't played the game and I don't know how matchups work.

 

[Steel]

Inui I realize what you are trying to say here. I know Pit has to play gay and simply camp to win this match.

But you say Pit can just use one of this quick moves and poke Marth back out once he is inside the arrows? If Pit had the range advantage, I could see this. However, he simply doesn't.

You know what we mean when we say Pit falls prey to Marth's zoning, right? It puts Pit on the defensive constantly and he doesn't have much to do about it. Once we land a hit Pit can't get away that easy, Marth has follow ups and can constantly lay on pressure against characters that don't have the tools to deal with it (eg dtilt > dancing blade).

I've played Pits, and this is always what happens. He simply can't compete with Marth with the tools he is given once up close. You say his fast jab attack will keep Marth out, well if Marth isn't right next to him he will just a attack the air and Marth can punish. And come on, forward b? That move is terrible.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Inui, you have some solid posts and for once you are actually thinking. Problem is that you overate camping in this game. Camping forces a reaction, but the camper also has to have the tools to contain/control the actions the opponent takes. Pit himself lacks the tools to do this. His moves just don't have the range.

And being zoned IS Pit's biggest weakness. Hell, you can see this in matches.

It's really the main thing that hurts him in this match.

For the record, Marth could up b after the first hit of Pit's f-smash, so it's not really that safe, but it's still very fast and overall a good move.

Marth just controls better in this match and once he gets in he has better options. Pit's f-smash is serious though, I will give it that.

Also, Pit can't runaway for ever. He will run out of stage and his ledge camping isn't that threatening.

The question is...what can Pit RELIABLY do when Marth zones him that doesn't pit him in danger?

The answer, of course, is nothing really. The safest thing to do is roll. And that gets predictable.

Turbo Ether: Why the sudden interest in the Marth boards? Don't you play Wolf? Just curious.

Also, I really don't know how the hell Pit will reflect a d-tilt with any sort of precision and consistency, but if he does Marth is in no danger. He can just roll away/shield/spot dodge.

Pit simply lacks the tools at close range to effectively control Marth. He can roll, which Marth doesn't even need to call. He can just wait for it and close in again. His pokes aren't good enough since they are either lacking in range or speed.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Yea, the last thing pit wants marth to do is zone in on him. Unfortuanately thats exactly what camping forces him to do (even tho he's gonna try and get in ur face anyway).

P.S. Does pit have to touch marth while he is pulling out his shield to turn marth around?

 

[Turbo Ether]

Trubo Ether: Why the sudden interest in the Marth boards? Don't you play Wolf? Just curious.

The game play discussion on this board is rather interesting and I try to learn about top and high tier characters. I also play a few characters.

If outranging someone determined who won a match-up, then Sheik would beat Fox in Melee and lose to Marth. We all know this is clearly false and the match-ups actually are the other way around. Why is this? Fox doesn't even really have superior speed and he gets gimped. The advantage comes from the nasty stuff Fox can do to her with waveshines and *gasp* Fox forcing her to approach due to lasers. Marth loses to Sheik due to silly combos and *gasp* being forced to approach due to needles. There's much more to matches than range, and that's something Marth players need to realize.

nvm

 

[Emblem Lord]

Also Inui you mentioned something that needs to be addressed.

You said range isn't everything.

Then you talked about Melee. In Melee characters like Fox and Sheik had other tools to make up for the fact that Marth outranged them. Sheik's dash attack allowed her to easily penetrate Marth's range and set-up combos. It wasn't just her needles and yes she also had safe pokes with fully spaced f-tilt and also her d-tilt IIRC.

Fox just had raw speed. And remember that in Melee you had much greater manueverability through the use of dash dancing and wavedashing. This allowed characters to go in and out of an opponent's zone very quickly and with ease which was perfect for baiting attacks and punishing.

Melee gave you more tools to deal with zoning. In Brawl you need either speed, range, or a really good projectile to deal with a character's range. Pit has the projectile, but Marth is fast and can close in quickly so Pit cannot effectively shut down Marth's approach or keep him out. So then we must look at who does better at close range.

Marth has more range, greater aerial speed for increased mobility, and faster/safer pokes. Pit has f-smash.

Sorry Inui but when it comes to debating me...

"YOU'RE NOT READY YET"!!!!!! *yells in Pit's pre-pubescent voice.

lolz.

But no...in the end this will only spread knowledge among our community. I await your rebuttal.

Not that you can disprove me.

BAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Turbo Ether: Dat's coo.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Also Inui you mentioned something that needs to be addressed.

You said range isn't everything.

Then you talked about Melee. In Melee characters like Fox and Sheik had other tools to make up for the fact that Marth outranged them. Sheik's dash attack allowed her to easily penetrate Marth's range and set-up combos. It wasn't just her needles and yes she also had safe pokes with fully spaced f-tilt and also her d-tilt IIRC.

Fox just had raw speed. And remember that in Melee you had much greater manueverability through the use of dash dancing and wavedashing. This allowed characters to go in and out of an opponent's zone very quickly and with ease which was perfect for baiting attacks and punishing.

Melee gave you more tools to deal with zoning. In Brawl you need either speed, range, or a really good projectile to deal with a character's range. Pit has the projectile, but Marth is fast and can close in quickly so Pit cannot effectively shut down Marth's approach or keep him out. So then we must look at who does better at close range.

Marth has more range, greater aerial speed for increased mobility, and faster/safer pokes. Pit has f-smash.

Sorry Inui but when it comes to debating me...

"YOU'RE NOT READY YET"!!!!!! *yells in Pit's pre-pubescent voice.

lolz.

But no...in the end this will only spread knowledge among our community. I await your rebuttal.

Not that you can disprove me.

BAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Turbo Ether: Dat's coo.

Can't deny this logic at all.

The fact that on paper, Marth has a lot of potential but hasn't been a big winner makes him an interesting/controversial character.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

The fact that Marth is not consistently winning tournaments is because of MK. Marth is a great character, it's just that MK is dominating the tournament scene and will be until 1. he is banned (not likely) or 2. a game breaking technique is found to beat him super easily (probably more unlikely).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Most potential Marth's end up going to MK since he is a better character with a lower learning curve and the same basic play style.

Also Marth's bad match-ups are against the two characters winning the most tournies.

That said Marth still places well. He does what is expected of a high tier character. He places high, but he doesn't win.

Turbo Ether: Of what potential do you speak? There is nothing left in Marth's metagame and the same can be said of 90% of the cast.

 

[Turbo Ether]

By potential I just meant the number of offensive and defensive options he seemingly has to work with in the hands of a top player. He seems to "scale well with skill". He has more depth than a character like Snake, who has a few tournament-winning-moves, and lot's of crappy ones. I might have to start playing this guy.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'll ask the same thing I always ask.

Why not just play MK?

Less weaknesses, more strengths, same gameplay pretty much and you would do better in tournies.

 

[darkspatan117]

Hey El I remarked Something in Pit Sidestep he seem to move foward a little maybe this could help him a little with his range

 

[Inui]

you said this:

The problem is that 0 top level Pits exist to really know what he's capable of. I know my Pit is very good and definitely one of the best ones out there, but I'm not Mew2King or Azen, so...

however, there is one pit that is top level his name is Danny aka Cdoc...check him out.

LMAO

That guy is all right.

He's nowhere near top level.

Top level = Mew2King/Azen/DSF/etc. That's not Cdoc, d00d. If he was at that level, he'd take 1st place in FL all the time, but he doesn't. AfroThundah and Seibrik are the beasts down there.

The problem with the analysis made in these threads is that it is theoretical. It is based off of the highest level of play between ideal players who make a minimal number of mistakes.

I'm assuming realistic playing, meaning Marth can't u-b everything and he'll mess up his zoning.

Pit's going to be camping forever. Camping is safe. You don't mess up camping.

He doesn't have any "bad" matchups other than MK, but not a lot of his matchups are that advantageous.

Characters I think Marth loses to badly:
-Meta Knight
-Dedede
-Snake

Characters I think Marth loses to slightly:
-R.O.B.
-Toon Link
-Pit

Characters I think are very annoying to deal with:
-Kirby
-Lucario
-Pikachu
-Wolf
-Falco

Inui, mock my arguments if you want, but I didn't stoop to that level against you. I really don't see the point in insulting me. I do not think Marth ***** Pit. I think he has an advantage. I read your post, and I agree with some of the things you said, but you seem to think that some of my arguments are ridiculous. You posted bair as a safe kill move for Pit. Then you claimed it should be used for punishment. Seriously, a punishment move isn't a safe move. It's safe to use as a punishment, but that makes the timing of your usage safe, not the move itself. Please do not say that just because I'm speaking theoretically I don't know what I'm talking about. I am sure you would beat me in a match, simply because I have less experience than you. However that doesn't mean that I haven't played the game and I don't know how matchups work.

I said your argument was stupid, not you. Don't be so sensitive.

B-air is safe with Pit because it has very little recovery time and is an aerial, making it inherently safe because it auto-cancels and can be done while moving.

Well you are gonna have to do a majority of the mobility seeing how 1) i am in college right now and 2) i have a severe lack of drivers liscence or vehicle. Whenever you're in Sacramento, let me know and i will see what i can do. I havent seen or heard about any tournaments around her lately tho.

I am a college student with no car and I attend a tournament every weekend.

But you say Pit can just use one of this quick moves and poke Marth back out once he is inside the arrows? If Pit had the range advantage, I could see this. However, he simply doesn't.

The area where Marth can punish an arrow and zone Pit properly is extremely small. On small bit of imperfection in Marth's zoning allows Pit to either shoot more arrows or punish Marth.

Did you know that if Marth double shorthops his f-airs, he'll get dash attacked? His n-air can also be punished this way because it doesn't hit low enough.

You know what we mean when we say Pit falls prey to Marth's zoning, right? It puts Pit on the defensive constantly and he doesn't have much to do about it. Once we land a hit Pit can't get away that easy, Marth has follow ups and can constantly lay on pressure against characters that don't have the tools to deal with it (eg dtilt > dancing blade).

lol

Hitstun doesn't exist. I wish it did, but it doesn't. Pit just DI's away, airdodges, and he's free. Marth can't combo him or pressure him forever. It takes a single 3 frame opening for Pit to jab Marth. Nobody can play that perfectly, so Marth is going to get hit if he stays in Pit's face forever due to no hitstun and dumb airdodge and shield mechanics.

I've played Pits, and this is always what happens. He simply can't compete with Marth with the tools he is given once up close. You say his fast jab attack will keep Marth out, well if Marth isn't right next to him he will just a attack the air and Marth can punish. And come on, forward b? That move is terrible.

I hope you're not talking about Rogue Pit and Kupo.........

Problem is that you overate camping in this game. Camping forces a reaction, but the camper also has to have the tools to contain/control the actions the opponent takes. Pit himself lacks the tools to do this. His moves just don't have the range.

When is the last time you entered a tournament, Marcel? It's been a while, hasn't it?

This game has degraded into a giant campfest. Patience and camping is what wins.

Pit has the tools to punish Marth's approaches. It takes an extremely small error for Marth to be punished. Pit just has to not shoot arrows when Marth is close enough to punish.

And being zoned IS Pit's biggest weakness. Hell, you can see this in matches.

It's really the main thing that hurts him in this match.

lol

Marth's zoning isn't broken. Pit can punish Marth's aerial camping with a dash attack really consistently. It takes a very small opening for Pit to hit him.

What is Pit going to mess up for such an opening to occur? He's merely running away and firing arrows at Marth, forcing Marth to take the risks while he stays safe.

Marth just controls better in this match and once he gets in he has better options. Pit's f-smash is serious though, I will give it that.

Jab is also amazing because it's faster.

Marth will always have windows of 4 frames to get punished. Powershield -> f-smash. Sidestep -> f-smash. Airdodge down -> f-smash. Powershield -> grab. All can punish Marth if he's not completely perfect. Marth barely outranges Pit. Marth's range isn't enough to just always keep him safe.

Also, Pit can't runaway for ever. He will run out of stage and his ledge camping isn't that threatening.

lmao he can fly under stages or just jump far too high for Marth to get near him way over the stage. Pit is amazing at running away like a little bitch.

The question is...what can Pit RELIABLY do when Marth zones him that doesn't put him in danger?

Dash away or roll back, because if Marth is at a viable range to zone him, he also can't hit Pit either.

Or dash attack any of Marth's small mistakes he can make.

Marth is taking the risks. Pit isn't.

You said range isn't everything.

Then you talked about Melee. In Melee characters like Fox and Sheik had other tools to make up for the fact that Marth outranged them. Sheik's dash attack allowed her to easily penetrate Marth's range and set-up combos. It wasn't just her needles and yes she also had safe pokes with fully spaced f-tilt and also her d-tilt IIRC.

Fox just had raw speed. And remember that in Melee you had much greater manueverability through the use of dash dancing and wavedashing. This allowed characters to go in and out of an opponent's zone very quickly and with ease which was perfect for baiting attacks and punishing.

It's not.

Sheik also had stuff like l-cancel to jab/grab/sidestep to safely attack Marth, and once Sheik finally got in on Marth, she could combo him and edgeguard him.

Fox's raw speed isn't enough. Sheik is also incredibly fast. The lasers forcing Sheik to approach were a huge weakness. Being waveshined across the stage into a d-smash and then edgeguarded is also certain death for Sheik.

Combos? Reliable edgeguarding? Such things do not exist in Brawl enough to make them matter. Once Marth gets in on Pit, he can poke him...and then do nothing else because the game doesn't allow Marth to punish the hardcore camping as much as he should be able to given the work it takes to get near Pit.

Melee gave you more tools to deal with zoning. In Brawl you need either speed, range, or a really good projectile to deal with a character's range. Pit has the projectile, but Marth is fast and can close in quickly so Pit cannot effectively shut down Marth's approach or keep him out. So then we must look at who does better at close range.

Marth has more range, greater aerial speed for increased mobility, and faster/safer pokes. Pit has f-smash.

Are you saying that Pit is slow and has bad range? Sorry, but having slightly less range than Marth =/= bad range and Pit has a plethora of very fast moves much like characters like Marth and Meta Knight. In fact, Pit's overall speed on the ground far exceeds Marth's in terms of start-up time and recovery time on moves.

Sorry Inui but when it comes to debating me...

"YOU'RE NOT READY YET"!!!!!! *yells in Pit's pre-pubescent voice.

lolz.

You're bragging when these two small posts with little substance is all you wrote? I'm considered a top debater in the English speaking world at Fire Emblem debating. You are far from impressing me right now.

I'll ask the same thing I always ask.

Why not just play MK?

Less weaknesses, more strengths, same gameplay pretty much and you would do better in tournies.

Marth's hot and I'm a top Fire Emblem debater/player, lol.

The fact that Marth is not consistently winning tournaments is because of MK. Marth is a great character, it's just that MK is dominating the tournament scene and will be until 1. he is banned (not likely) or 2. a game breaking technique is found to beat him super easily (probably more unlikely).

Meta Knight? I was beating plenty of amazing Meta Knights with Marth when I played that match actively. I now use Snake for it, but I defeated dmbrandon and teh_spamerer both in sets and matches consistently enough to prove that Meta Knight is not the reason Marth loses. NEO has beaten Forte. Emblem Lord has done very well against dmbrandon and teh_spamerer.

One character is not the reason.

Marth loses to Meta Knight, Snake, and Dedede. Those are the mains of about 80% of tournament players.

Look at NJ's rankings, for instance.

1. Mew2King: Meta Knight/Dedede
2. teh_spamerer: Meta Knight
3. dmbrandon: Meta Knight
4. Inui: Marth/Snake
5. Atomsk: Dedede/Diddy
6. Yes!: Snake/Fox
7. BlackWaltz: Olimar
8. Emblem Lord: Marth
9. Lord Knight: Dedede
10. Keitaro: Falco/Snake
11. Bajisci: R.O.B.
12. Ether: Snake/Wolf
13. Blue: Sonic
14. Eazy: Toon Link/Falco
15. PRiDE: Yoshi

Emblem Lord and I have to constantly compete with Meta Knights, Dededes, and Snakes in order to place well. There's also a R.O.B., which is annoying to fight, and I often go Dedede or Pit against him.

Unless new stuff is thought of/discovered when it comes to fighting those characters, Marth won't ever get 1st. The last Marths to ever get 1st at anything big were me and Roy_R, and both tournaments were a while ago.

 

[BacklashMarth]

In the grand scheme of things, sure tourney results are nice and all. But at the end of the day who gives a f***? So i dont place well in tourneys (they rarely hold any where i live, THAT is why i dont go to tournaments that often). A person can be perfectly logical, reasonable, and competent w/o placing 3rd or up in a competition. Its not like if u dont play brawl at a tourny then u arent playing brawl at all. You may or may not agree with me but i just wanted to throw that out there since tournaments were being used to validate ppls arguements.

Oh and about the camping winning tournaments, unless u mean defensive camping where u sit and do nothing (which isnt camping at all IMO) it dosesnt make sense for MK to be placing so high then with not a single Pit to be found. U dont want to HAVE to camp someone because many projectiles wont kill (and you camp ppl when ur up close game sucks usually or u want to keep them out of their optimal range). I dont think there is a character in Brawl who cant handle camping fairly well in one shape or another.

 

[Inui]

I didn't say anything about your skill. I said your argument was wrong.

If you think standing still isn't camping and that every character can handle camping (LOL GANONDORF), then you're probably not playing Brawl, or you're playing with people nowhere near top level.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Pits dont camp by standing still -_-. When someone stands still and waits, thats more of a defensive strategy or just playing that anticipation game. Characters w/o projectilles have a hard time camping because camping much more viable when u can still do damage from where u stand. Name at least 3 ppl who cant handle camping and i will revoke my last statement about ppl having a way to deal with camping (shoot, find 2 and try to make it a charaacter who doesnt inhabit and compose epic fail tier). If someones gonna use gannondorf in a tournament and expect to win the whole thing............i question many things.

 

[Inui]

So, you think Meta Knight has a hard time camping?

This conversation is over if that's so, lol.

 

[BacklashMarth]

When MK camps and Marth approaches, he can **** them terribly. When pit camps and is approached by marth, not so much. MK can camp but he doesnt have to do so as much against marth like Pit does.

 

[Inui]

Pit's entire game is camping. That doesn't make him bad when the best positive in this game is being a good camper and staying safe. It just makes him boring.

Meta Knight does have to camp Marth. He's one of three characters that actually has the capacity to stop Meta Knight's aggression. Only Snake and Dedede can do this as well...and they do it much better.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Pit's entire game is camping. That doesn't make him bad when the best positive in this game is being a good camper and staying safe. It just makes him boring.

Meta Knight does have to camp, Marth. He's one of three characters that actually has the capacity to stop Meta Knight's aggression. Only Snake and Dedede can do this as well...and they do it much better.

I couldnt agree more about pits whole game. However, Marth and MK actually both camp each other. Marth tends to approach MK as much as MK tends to approach marth in a typical matchup (tourney level may differ). I can see where u are coming from btw. I guess we both just disagree on how big of a factor pits sparrows are in this matchup.

 

[Inui]

Meta Knight's approaches are safer and he is less destroyed when he is punished, so he wins.

 

[Shaya]

Well a bad DI punish against Metaknight (like let's say you do Up B the second they start their tornado) can kill MK (if fresh) at 97% from the middle of Lylat Cruise

 

[BacklashMarth]

ROFL, i miss that Iron Chef dude. XD

 

[bludhoundz]

I'm assuming realistic playing, meaning Marth can't u-b everything and he'll mess up his zoning.

Pit's going to be camping forever. Camping is safe. You don't mess up camping.

Okay. Camping is safe. You don't mess up camping. Guess what Marth's zoning is? Camping outside of enemy range. By your own argument, if I stand outside of Pit's attack range, I am winning and I can't mess up.

Marth can simply stand outside of Pit's attack range, without having to do anything. Pit has 0 safe offensive responses. Zero. He can try to run away, in which case Marth can chase him but remain out of range (hmm.. lots of offensive options for Pit here...). He can try to approach but will probably eat an attack since he is outranged. He can try to maneuver around Marth aerially or through rolldodges (you know these are both a horrible idea and you will get punished). When it comes down to it, once Marth has finished rushing Pit down, Pit's options are severely limited, and Marth is in control. You have yet to prove this point wrong of mine, you're just insisting that you can punish Marth in this situation. Well in order to punish him, he has to make a mistake. If he doesn't make a mistake, then what will you do? Seriously, tell me what options Pit has here. Do not tell me what Pit can do after Marth throws out a laggy Fsmash or Dsmash, or what if Marth activates Dolphin Slash for no apparent reason.

What options does Pit have when Marth is standing the perfect distance away from him?

Do not tell me what responses you have to my moves in this situation. If I do nothing, what can you do? If you have no good options, it's obvious Pit has to wait for Marth to do something. Having to react to your opponent is bad. It is best to force your opponent to react to you. Thus, I've proved that Marth has an advantage in this situation, unless you can answer my above question with a tangible offensive tactic.

BTW am I supposed to not be insulted if you call my argument dumb?

 

[Inui]

Okay. Camping is safe. You don't mess up camping. Guess what Marth's zoning is? Camping outside of enemy range. By your own argument, if I stand outside of Pit's attack range, I am winning and I can't mess up.

Marth can simply stand outside of Pit's attack range, without having to do anything. Pit has 0 safe offensive responses. Zero. He can try to run away, in which case Marth can chase him but remain out of range (hmm.. lots of offensive options for Pit here...). He can try to approach but will probably eat an attack since he is outranged. He can try to maneuver around Marth aerially or through rolldodges (you know these are both a horrible idea and you will get punished). When it comes down to it, once Marth has finished rushing Pit down, Pit's options are severely limited, and Marth is in control. You have yet to prove this point wrong of mine, you're just insisting that you can punish Marth in this situation. Well in order to punish him, he has to make a mistake. If he doesn't make a mistake, then what will you do? Seriously, tell me what options Pit has here. Do not tell me what Pit can do after Marth throws out a laggy Fsmash or Dsmash, or what if Marth activates Dolphin Slash for no apparent reason.

No, it's not that simple for Marth.

Pit is forcing Marth to approach. Approaching in Brawl with non-Meta Knight is usually very unsafe and risky.

Being outside of Pit's attack range and close enough so that Pit can't safely shoot arrows is extremely difficult. It's a very small amount of space.

If Marth is a tiny bit too close, he can get hit by Pit's fast ground moves or get punished by a dash attack. If he's too far away, he will get shot by an arrow.

If Marth was in that perfect area and never messed up, then he'd easily win.

Unless Pit is near the edge, he can just dash away and be safe again anyways. Who cares if Marth is pressuring and zoning Pit if he's not actually hitting Pit?

This game doesn't have hitstun. What's Pit's punishment for making a mistake? He gets hit once. Marth works around the massive camping, takes risks to approach Pit, finally gets a hit...and that's it. The cycle then repeats itself. The terrible powershielding, airdodging, and hitstun mechanics of this game make camping too good because the punishment for finally getting caught is very minor.

What options does Pit have when Marth is standing the perfect distance away from him?

Do nothing, because if Marth is close enough to hit him, he's also close enough to get hit. It's just a battle of powershield/sidestep/airdodge --> something, just like most of the actual "fighting" in this game.

Having to react to your opponent is bad. It is best to force your opponent to react to you.

LMAO

You just proved that Pit wins with your own argument.

Pit camps. He shoots arrows at Marth. He forces Marth to defend himself. He forces Marth to approach and mount an offensive, which means Marth takes risks because of the silly powershield/airdodge/sidestep mechanics. One mistake and he eats an attack.

Marth has to react to Pit the entire time.

I disagree that having to react is bad because it's actually the best way to play this game.

Think of Dedede.

90% of Dedede's game is walk/dash at you --> react to something --> powershield/sidetep --> grab. The other 10% of his game is zoning you with waddle dees and f-tilt. This simplistic, reactionary character is S tier.

BTW am I supposed to not be insulted if you call my argument dumb?

Yes, don't be insulted.

 

[bludhoundz]

No, it's not that simple for Marth.

Pit is forcing Marth to approach. Approaching in Brawl with non-Meta Knight is usually very unsafe and risky.

Being outside of Pit's attack range and close enough so that Pit can't safely shoot arrows is extremely difficult. It's a very small amount of space.

If Marth is a tiny bit too close, he can get hit by Pit's fast ground moves or get punished by a dash attack. If he's too far away, he will get shot by an arrow.

If Marth was in that perfect area and never messed up, then he'd easily win.

I don't really see how this approach is so risky. Okay, I'll take 1 or 2 arrows maximum on my way headed over to you (really, if you're halfway decent at approaching with Marth you won't get hit much). You exaggerate the space the Marth has. He has a lot more than you say -- once he is within a certain distance, Pit shooting an arrow is just dumb. He can roll toward Pit, dodging the arrow, and before the arrow is offscreen and Pit can perform another animation, Marth can pull out a smash attack without fear of it being blocked. Once he has reached the point where Pit can't spam arrows, he can just walk up to optimal range (tipper range, outside of Pit's reach). Of course he would easily win if he never messed up (in an ideal situation where we are comparing these two as CHARACTERS, not as tools for human players, I'd say this proves that Marth is better in this matchup). I don't think this will happen, because people mess up. However you said that camping is easy and you don't mess it up. This is simply camping outside of Pit's range.

Unless Pit is near the edge, he can just dash away and be safe again anyways. Who cares if Marth is pressuring and zoning Pit if he's not actually hitting Pit?

Running away is only going to buy you a little time until Marth catches up.

This game doesn't have hitstun. What's Pit's punishment for making a mistake? He gets hit once. Marth works around the massive camping, takes risks to approach Pit, finally gets a hit...and that's it. The cycle then repeats itself. The terrible powershielding, airdodging, and hitstun mechanics of this game make camping too good because the punishment for finally getting caught is very minor.

Each hit Marth throws out does more damage than each arrow he gets hit by from Pit. Not to mention Dancing Blade is an incredible punisher with multiple hits. Not to mention once Pit isn't grounded, Marth has an even easier time with him.

Do nothing, because if Marth is close enough to hit him, he's also close enough to get hit. It's just a battle of powershield/sidestep/airdodge --> something, just like most of the actual "fighting" in this game.

This is simply not true. You are completely ignoring the issue of range, where Marth has Pit beat. Also if you watch high level play, you'll rarely see a battle of powershield/sidestep/airdodge. I don't know where you got the idea that that is really prevalent.

Also you are basically giving me the answer that I was asking for, that Pit is going to wait for Marth to do something. Well if I dtilt you, you can shield, spotdodge, rolldodge, or down b. Shielding is an okay option. Spotdodging is foolish. Rolling is foolish. Down b is probably the best, and I'm not sure about the frame data (is it faster or as fast as shielding?).

Pit has 0 offensive options here. Marth is in control, as he can attack and doesn't have to be afraid of being hit, unless he throws out a laggy move. dtilt can poke away at Pit all day (hmm.. kind of a similar analogy to Pit spamming arrows, except dtilt is faster, unpunishable and deals more damage -- also leads into DB or grabs when it connects).

LMAO

You just proved that Pit wins with your own argument.

Pit camps. He shoots arrows at Marth. He forces Marth to defend himself. He forces Marth to approach and mount an offensive, which means Marth takes risks because of the silly powershield/airdodge/sidestep mechanics. One mistake and he eats an attack.

Marth has to react to Pit the entire time.

Okay, this is partially true. At the start of the match, Marth is forced to approach. Yes, he is forced to react to Pit. Pit has the advantage here. Marth might eat a couple arrows. Once he closes the gap, Pit has to react to him. And he has to continue reacting to him.

I disagree that having to react is bad because it's actually the best way to play this game.

Think of Dedede.

90% of Dedede's game is walk/dash at you --> react to something --> powershield/sidetep --> grab. The other 10% of his game is zoning you with waddle dees and f-tilt. This simplistic, reactionary character is S tier.

There's more to D3 than this (seriously, I'm sure you've watched some Seibrik or M2k), but okay, I'll entertain this.

From a simply calculatory point of view, it makes less sense to be the one reacting than the one acting. If you can throw out a safe move, your opponent has a short amount of time to react to it, and you will often be done with your move before their reaction is done (spotdodge, shieldstun). Nobody wants to react to MK, for example, because he's simply too fast. This applies to all characters really, except they don't all have the same speed as him, so it's easier to react but still more punishable than being the one performing an action, as long as you stay at the right range.

Pit has nothing even comparable to D3's chaingrab. If Marth is zoning properly, he's not going to get shieldgrabbed, and he's not going to get punished. Okay, fine, he will make zoning mistakes. But if you assume Marth makes zoning mistakes, you have to assume Pit will make zoning mistakes as well. Both characters will get punished, and both have good punishment games. Pit doesn't have a punishment game on the level of D3 though, making the reaction idea a lot less applicable for this matchup.

But if Marth is zoning at the proper range, Pit doesn't have any offensive options, other than rush in, which as we've agreed, isn't going to happen as Marth is going to be approaching Pit.

dtilt is going to be Marth's best tool, from what I can see. You don't really see it as threatening, which is fine. But Marth can implement some mindgames using his dtilt. Crouching is going to make it look like Marth is about to dtilt. He can also switch up from 2 in a row to dtilt -> grab, dtilt -> shieldbreaker, dtilt -> DB, or even just a crouch to SH fair (I'm aware this variation is punishable, but if it baits the spotdodge it'll work). In this situation, Marth has a bunch of mixup options, while Pit can't get at Marth due to the spacing game.

Yes, don't be insulted.

Okay. I'm trying to keep this argument respectful is all. I have no hard feelings toward you, I just do not agree with your viewpoint of this matchup.

Honestly I would like to play you some time. I do not have too much experience with this matchup, and more matchup experience is more likely to change my mind than an argument where we can just go back and forth all day.