bludhoundz said:
I think that Marth has two areas where Pit cannot arrow him: 1. When he is close enough to hit Pit but is out of Pit's range (this is the small one). 2. When he is close enough to Pit that a spotdodged or rollddoged arrow will give him enough time to close the gap and nail Pit.
#2 gives Marth a decent amount of space. He can't hit Pit but arrows are no longer completely safe at this range.
Pit stops firing arrows at #2.
What then?
Honestly I think in perfect play, Snake or MK will still be better than Marth. Marth, however, would be very good in perfect play. You're right here.
Maybe, but a 1 frame move that counters anything is pretty beastly if you can react to 1 frame.
Honestly I think in perfect play, Snake or MK will still be better than Marth. Marth, however, would be very good in perfect play. You're right here.
Running the clock is a viable strategy in Brawl.
This could be argued either way. If it's a guessing game, whoever is the better player wins this situation. It doesn't give either Marth or Pit an advantage. Also Pit's moves do not all have less recovery time after (unless you're referring to grounded moves), as Marth's aerials are all quite quick.
Marth's b-air or d-air not being auto-cancelled = mega lag.
Marth's smashes = mega lag.
His u-tilt even has more recovery time than Pit's f-smash.
In terms of recovery time, Pit ***** Marth. Pit is more able to do *stuff* and just camp and throw stuff out. He's heavier, less gimpable, and has less recovery time, which means mistakes get punished less severely and less often in general.
True but Marth is also quick. That makes the amount of range he has control over somewhat significant in play.
Ganondorf was actually quick in Melee due to wavelanding and wavedashing.
His problem was that he got death combo'd, camped, and chaingrabbed a lot.
But, still, range and speed aren't everything. Marth's range isn't even
that good.
I don't see how you can just say he's going to be the loser in these exchanges. He has the quick aerials and good b mixups to come out on top here. I am not saying he will necessarily do so every time, but it's not really fair to simply state that he is going to lose.
If they trade hits, Marth takes more damage. Marth would have to hit Pit more than he hit him in order to win(obviously, lol), but if they go blow for blow, Pit wins out because he's heavier.
D3 has a crazy punishment game though. His chaingrab allows him to build up a ridiculous amount of damage, and he can finish it off with an Ftilt or Fthrow which adds even more.
That doesn't change the fact that in order for that stuff to happen he walks/dashes at you or camps --> reacts --> grabs.
Dash attack can't always punish proper zoning though. Against ftilt or fair, maybe, but bair or dtilt I think might be out of range..
Jump back b-air and d-tilt are safe. Other stuff isn't.
This limits Marth's safe zoning options.
You're right about what Pit is doing. He might not be zoning the entire match, but equivalently he's certainly not going to just stand in place all match.
Yeah, he has to move. If he could just stand there the whole time, Marth couldn't win.
Yeah. I think that it really is on Marth to move this game into the air (the ground is less favorable), where Pit doesn't have such a reliable answer to some of his moves (shield). I think when it comes to somewhat close aerial combat Marth will come out on top but Pit definitely has some tools to make it hard for Marth or punish him if he messes up.
Marth wins in the air indeed, but if Pit isn't in the air as well, Marth has to take risks.
Ether said:
I'm pretty sure Marth can't roll past an arrow and guarantee a hit against the Pit before he recovers from shooting the arrow.
Unless Marth is close enough to the point where shooting arrows is stupid, this is correct.
Emblem Lord said:
Inui: I can see what you are saying in your posts, but overall I think Marth wins out slightly. As I said you overrate camping. And dude...wtf...you have SEEN me played in matches.
When have I ever...EVER...been unable to effectively deal with camping? When did I ever get flustered or lose my cool because I was camped?
This is me you are talking too man. I don't care if someone camps me because I know I will find a way around it and that camping alone isn't going to win a match.
This is the same EL that got camped for minutes at a time by Atomsk and he did not waver.
EL is a pretty cool guy. He ***** campers and isn't afraid of nothing.
Who cares about losing your cool? You don't, which I guess is good, but it's not like you're applying all of this knowledge you have to win tournaments or even place high anymore.
The last tournaments I saw you at, you lost to Atomsk and then a random Snake, and then you lost to a random Meta Knight and then Velocity.
I don't understand how you managed to coach me into beating dmbrandon and teh_spamerer, two amazing Meta Knights, but then you lose to a random Meta Knight yourself.
Please come to something and **** campers. Make teh_spamerer, Keitaro, Orion, and the other gay campers in this state lose to another Marth. I'd like to see it.
Anyway, pretty much the entire Marth boards gives Marth the edge in this match. But we both know how you are Lucas. You go by your own eyes and nothing else. Either that or you suck on the teet of better players and take thier opinion as law.
I don't care if the entire Marth board thinks Marth wins. If it's so clearly obvious and easy to prove, and everyone thinks Marth wins, then why don't you actually debate me on it and prove Marth wins? Surely you can outperform the other debaters, right? You're in the SBR, so aren't you supposed to be elite at this stuff?
So when we play next, I promise to crush you. Marth vs Pit.
Good luck.
BTW, unlike you and most other people I do not need to go to a bunch tournies to understand a fighting game or become knowledgeable about the metagame. This is called natural talent. My talent is the ability to perceive fighting game mechanics with very little effort. I suppose it's a part of a larger talent having to do with a high level comprenhension and analytical ability.
Either way, I know you lack this ability.
You poor soul. To have to subject yourself to brawl tournaments to understand why this game is so bad.
I truly pity you.
Then why don't you win?
Anyway Inui, you say you don't want to play theory, but that's all you are doing really with your arguments. BTW, a SH fair from Marth will cancel an arrow and can still hit Pit's hand. Just throwing that out there.
Why would Pit shoot an arrow when Marth is that close?
). Pit tags me a few times with his sparrows just to slow down my superman walk into optimum Marth range. My point: camping with a projectile isnt always better than camping w/o one. In short, pits camping game fails because it doesnt keep marth out very effectively. If u have to camp its because ur character has some fatal weakness up close (which pit does vs. marth in this occasion). If marth can abuse pits weakness of close range combat (or out ranging combat) than pit can abuse marths weakness of not having a gimmicky reflector or spammy projectile.
