Match-Up Discussion #37! Marth

[Steel]

Marth​

Ahh.. feels good making one of these again.

Anyway, the Marth ditto is actually a very complex match up and is very unexplored by the majority of the community. You should, for the most part, ignore the summary i have in the index. Staying grounded during marth dittos... That's so... april marth ditto metagame.

go

 

[feardragon64]

I was just thinking about this yesterday....

You're competing for the same distance so....spacing is....interesting. The reason I think this match-up is a bit ******** is because half the time the both of you will be in a position with almost identical options and it's almost a matter of who hits the buttons first(assuming you have proper spacing down). I guess some things you can try to do to change that situation are juggling, etc. A lot of the time this will be a match of stage control so try and hold your ground on the most advantageous part of the stage. You should know most of the dangers of this match-up(DS OoS, punishing shields, DB's to refresh moves) already, and so will the person you're against presumably.

Honestly, I still think the Marth on defense has an advantage. Marth's defense is just....better than his offense. DS OoS will work on any fairs on shields, ftilt stops pretty much all aerial approaches, if you're on the ground you'll probably be in a better position to dtilt sooner(and if for some reason you aren't but you see it coming counter out-ranges dtilt). Maybe it's a bit outdated but I still find the marth on the ground is in a more advantageous position. If both Marth's play the ground game, it's about who has more stage control and makes use of it.

 

[Supernova757]

i used to use marth. but then i switched to falco.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Juggle the other Marth! That's one of Marth's easiest way to rack up damage on most people, and it's only made easier by Marth being weak below him in the air. Space well, bla bla bla, juggle for easy damage, play safe, retreat aerials, don't full hop at all or the opponent will juggle you, don't be afraid to go for gimps, just don't get stagespiked, Up-B OoS if the opponent is foolish enough to attack your shield with anything that isn't spaced like perfectly.

This is a weird matchup. This is more based on who knows how to play against Marth than who knows how to play Marth in general.

It's pretty obvious that it's 50:50, but the Marth (during juggling) that's under the other Marth is at a ~70:30 advantage.

 

[Steel]

@fear

Marth on defense has the advantage?

No. just no. you WILL

get *****

 

[~ Gheb ~]

100/0 Marth's favour.

He'll win. Always.

 

[-Jumpman-]

If the opponent uses X aerial, just f-tilt. Or walk back a bit and use DB when possible.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

^The second thing doesn't work if they retreat their aerials.

And Marth can throw out empty short hops then punish Ftilt. Or full hop (lulz) over Ftilt and then punish the cooldown.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

100/0 Marth's favour.

He'll win. Always.

I disagree, it's 0/100 Marth's disadvantage, he'll always lose.


I usually fight this match-up like I am fighting MK, staying grounded and being defensive.

But if you're saying the opposite is better, than I would certainly like to hear why.

[There is no sarcasm in above statement; I am legitimately interested.]

 

[VietGeek]

If you stay too defensive, you'll get *****. If you're too aggressive, you'll get *****.

This is a battle of balance. A battle of not only mentality, but of playstyle. If you stay too defensive, you may give up advantages you could gone forward with. Ideally, once you get the other Marth in the air, keep him there. Be patient and see through his patterns as he tries to make it back down.

At the ledge, the one onstage has a vast number of options. You know yourself, there are no surprises. You know Marth on the ledge is severely limited. Get him there then throw him back out when he tries to make it back on stage.

Also, note that being too aggressive makes you eat a Fsmash or Dolphin Slash. It's imperative that you stay safe and don't try to challenge the other Marth too much if he's just sitting in his shield.

The match-up is regardless, still very gay. You can basically win using Dolphin Slash as one of your frequently used moves. That move can stuff almost everything. This ditto is just...a guessing game.

Play it safe. Know your limits.

 

[Hype]

Quick question aabout this match up: can you DS out of a DB if it's timed well, or does it have to be timed inhumanly perfect to not be DSed out of.

 

[feardragon64]

Meh I'm still not entirely convinced. I get what viet is saying on why pursuing advantages is important(duh) but the match will most likely be 90% the teo marths swatting and DS'ing, and 10% taking advantage of a good position. It's just not largely apparent to me why being really aggressive outside of that 10% to 20% makes sense.

 

[VietGeek]

Quick question aabout this match up: can you DS out of a DB if it's timed well, or does it have to be timed inhumanly perfect to not be DSed out of.

"DS when you see red."

 

[illinialex24]

You get a lot of tippers in this matchup. Like a lot. You kill much earlier here than on average, because you and your opponent will want identical spacing to tip.....

 

[Remzi]

If you stay too defensive, you'll get *****. If you're too aggressive, you'll get *****.

This is a battle of balance. A battle of not only mentality, but of playstyle. If you stay too defensive, you may give up advantages you could gone forward with. Ideally, once you get the other Marth in the air, keep him there. Be patient and see through his patterns as he tries to make it back down.

At the ledge, the one onstage has a vast number of options. You know yourself, there are no surprises. You know Marth on the ledge is severely limited. Get him there then throw him back out when he tries to make it back on stage.

Also, note that being too aggressive makes you eat a Fsmash or Dolphin Slash. It's imperative that you stay safe and don't try to challenge the other Marth too much if he's just sitting in his shield.

The match-up is regardless, still very gay. You can basically win using Dolphin Slash as one of your frequently used moves. That move can stuff almost everything. This ditto is just...a guessing game.

Play it safe. Know your limits.

Almost all of Marth's matchups should be played this way, and it annoys me when people make it seem like you absolutely have to lean to one side.

 

[VietGeek]

Almost all of Marth's matchups should be played this way, and it annoys me when people make it seem like you absolutely have to lean to one side.

Of course, but the point is the basics of Marth are further emphasized is because...well you're fighting yourself.

Yeah I annoy people. Sorry sir. Internet johns/I could care less.

 

[Remzi]

Of course, but the point is the basics of Marth are further emphasized is because...well you're fighting yourself.

Yeah I annoy people. Sorry sir. Internet johns/I could care less.

I was agreeing with you >_>

I like that you implied a sense of balance, rather than forcibly committing to one type of playstyle.

 

[∫unk]

Between 2 good players spacing is going to be similar so you have to win in other ways.

You guys should talk about in what situations do certain things work. For example, if you see them do a rising sh f-air you know the 2nd f-air is coming so you can run in ps and punish with a bunch of different things but grab and d-tilt have the most damage potential follow ups but most opt for db for the fast reliable option (but most likely not maximizing your damage).

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

I was just thinking about this yesterday....

You're competing for the same distance so....spacing is....interesting. The reason I think this match-up is a bit ******** is because half the time the both of you will be in a position with almost identical options and it's almost a matter of who hits the buttons first(assuming you have proper spacing down). I guess some things you can try to do to change that situation are juggling, etc. A lot of the time this will be a match of stage control so try and hold your ground on the most advantageous part of the stage. You should know most of the dangers of this match-up(DS OoS, punishing shields, DB's to refresh moves) already, and so will the person you're against presumably.

You're dead on. This happens all the time when my friend and I play Marth dittos. It doesn't come down to who's spacing is better, but to whoever actually hits first. I, for one, can't stand this match up. I've always had trouble with it and it seems like every time I hit, they hit back. It's just constant back and forth Dthrow -> Fsmash and Fairs.

 

[Steel]

To the ones who think sitting back and waiting is better.. you're just going to sit there and try to ftilt or fsmash an approach? Try to camp with fairs? It doesn't work, assuming your opponent knows wtf he's doing baiting you or hitting you in between attacks is incredibly easy.

And bengals obviously you don't attack the entire match, that's not aggro that's ********.

 

[Remzi]

And bengals obviously you don't attack the entire match, that's not aggro that's ********.

I never said thats what aggro was.

 

[Freezewish]

I've always had trouble with it and it seems like every time I hit, they hit back. It's just constant back and forth Dthrow -> Fsmash and Fairs.

You are aware you can reverse dolphin slash out of the dthrow to fsmash. Besides its more efficient to fthrow fsmash with a stutter step.

 

[-Cross-]

I've heard they can upB out of d-throw>f-smash

 

[ChaosKnight]

i hear Fthrow to neutral air to follow up uair or fsmash or upsmash works 0-10%

 

[Hype]

i hear Fthrow to neutral air to follow up uair or fsmash or upsmash works 0-10%

I always see Roy R doing the Fthrow > Nair > Fsmash.

 

[∫unk]

The f-smash part fails with usual di I like u-air u-smash

 

[BarDulL]

Yeah, that combo doesn't actually work. You can smash DI out of it, and sometimes even smash DI outside of the second hit of the nair.

Now, whether or not your opponent will be prepared to smash DI out of the nair is a different story.

On other news, this is an odd match up for various reasons.

As someone said earlier, spacing in this match up is...unusual, to say the least. I'm not sure how to elaborate on what to do because there is always a positive solution for the opponent to take. It's just a matter of...mindgames, I guess. Bait, put your opponent into bad situations, make quick, aggressive actions that you know will go unpunished, and don't fall into "bad spacing."

Edit:

You are aware you can reverse dolphin slash out of the dthrow to fsmash. Besides its more efficient to fthrow fsmash with a stutter step.

QFT. Dthrow to Fsmash doesn't always work because your opponent can Up+B before the fsmash lands (and the up+b will hit you). However, you don't -HAVE- to fsmash. You could raise your shield to block your opponent's up+b, then punish the lag. If it were me, I would do a fast falled fair >dtilt>dancing blade for optimal damage (I think that works, I forget.)

...So yeah.

Edit2: Tired johns.

 

[Shaya]

Marth really counters Marth hard. And I say that in a serious manner.

Fthrow to (tipper) fsmash is extremely devestating to Marth, pretty much more so than any other character in the game.

If done towards the edge of a stage (notoriously done on battlefield in marth dittos), the combo can really easily lead to a low percent death (in the same holy gay way dthrow to dair is with Falcos). With the Marth off the stage and at a reasonable distance off said edge, it's very easy for Marth to land an extra fair and edgehog. Or purely just edgehog and if the Marth DI'd well, will be forced to recover ontop of the stage and then its an easy upsmash, or lol fsmash/similar off the edge again (with it being less detrimental of course).

Marth's jab counters Marth's fair extremely well. Marth's best aggressive option fails against himself.

A grounded Marth in semi defensive quarters will out do one that is prone to the air. Ground vs ground as a result is extremely gay.

However in my general strategising, I space myself within them as much as possible. At best i let myself get hit by dancing blade. I go hardcore for the grabs.

Marth owns Marth from his throws. It's just unbelievable. Marth can't do a thing against upthrow, fthrow to fair works practically everytime.

I am quite a vocal supporter of shieldbreaker, and as most Marth's don't use the move at all, I find it one of my best bets to outspace an aggressive or defensive Marth. Shieldbreaker, grab game and jabs shutdown Marth. **** I hate Marth.

 

[Xisin]

Marth really counters Marth hard. And I say that in a serious manner.

I am quite a vocal supporter of shieldbreaker, and as most Marth's don't use the move at all, I find it one of my best bets to outspace an aggressive or defensive Marth. Shieldbreaker, grab game and jabs shutdown Marth. **** I hate Marth.

For sure.

yeah probably the most annoying thing about marth vs marth (to me) is just making it back on the stage sometimes, since you can ledge trap marth sop easilytand send him back out with tilts throws or other various manners... throws for the most part, and its just as easy to put your ditto in the same situation. Its so incredibly dumb how much bardull edge hogs me when i play against him. so yeah take advantage of how "average" marths recovery is and how easy it is to hog it if you can read your opponent well enough.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Didn't M2K say a loooooong time ago that Marth dittos were unfun and all about spacing in Brawl?

Too bad you're not discussing Ganon dittos, which are THE ****.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth really can't do much to Marth. The match is one huge mindgame. At any given time as long as the one being hit has good DI he can stop any follow up attacks with a DS or a well timed fair.

It's dumb.

The match becomes pure yomi layering since you have to predict exactly when one will try to counter attack so you can punish them.

And your edgeguarding needs to be perfect, because if it isn't then YOU will be the one getting gimped.

Yeah, it's EASIER and less of a hassle to play defensive and hang back, but the aggressor can bait you if they are good enough and since your mobility is the same, it can be really hard to wait out a smart opponent.

The match is dumb and is the very embodiment of everything that I hate about Brawl.

 

[Steel]

*watches emblem lord go back to SF2 with that big smile on his face

 

[VietGeek]

*watches emblem lord go back to TvC with that big smile on his face

 

[Remzi]

EL said he thought that game looked bad, for some reason.

I'm praying it comes to the US. But Brawl and SF4 should be fine for me

 

[Emblem Lord]

Replace bad with 1000 orgasmic sexual encounters at once and yes you are correct.

 

[Remzi]

Replace bad with 1000 orgasmic sexual encounters at once and yes you are correct.

I take it you've changed your mind? I asked you about it in the Chat w/ EL thread and you said it didn't look very good IIRC.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Cuz it's a vs game and they have a rep for being broken as ****.

But this one looks extremely balanced with all the nice universal options so I think it will end up being a solid competitive fighter.

 

[_Kadaj_]

that game is ****

 

[Freezewish]

EL said he thought that game looked bad, for some reason.

I'm praying it comes to the US. But Brawl and SF4 should be fine for me

Sorry Bengals but i doubt it comes to the US since alot of the Tatsunoko series havent even been released outside of Japan. =/

I would get that game just to kick *** with Viewtiful Joe

 

[Darxmarth23]

I find myself using counter a lot more in these dittoes. Especially in the defensive game. But it never gets me anywhere.