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Not really true, Marth will never send him at an angle which Yoshi will be vulnerable to it on recovery. Also, if Yoshi has reached the ground before Marth reaches him, you can actually counter it with a Pivot Grab. In fact I think you can even counter it with a Bair.
We know he isn't a shield character, but Marth basically forces him into it. You really can't just pivot grab the whole time.**** it! I had a huge sentence but I deleted it
I'll just address some things briefly.
I think everyone is missing the concept of Yoshi's Recovery. Yoshi DJAD's to make it invincible, not because he has Armour. I also have no problem recovering even against Marth. He shouldn't hit you out of your recovery at all.
Also Yoshi isn't a Shield Character, so he can't really rely on his shield as a primary defence.
I had alot more to say, but I'm just too tired. I'm willing to go on with a 65:35.
I still don't think he that hard though, and his advantages aren't that sizeable.
Yoshi does not have a better edgeguarding game, and Marth won't need to use Dair if he shorthops because ther isn't a good chance Yoshi will get under him.
I thought his Down+B had super-armor frames on startup.
How will Yoshi's Uair lose if it's just as fast (maybe faster), and has more range than Marth's Dair? You have to apply the same thing for us, We're not planning to be directly in your range to allow you to hit us. That's the only move where we beat yours (aerials wise).
uair uses yoshi's own body as a hitbox. If you hit that hitbox with a disjointed, yoshi gets hit. That's why Marth wins every time in the scenario. Marth's sword will hit yoshi's uair and yoshi's uair will be canceled out because yoshi will have been spiked.
Yeah, Yoshi cancels out his Double Jump Armour when he attacks. Maybe he retains some armour frames if he attacks out of it, but it's only a few frames and barley noticeable (I always think that I attacked out of it after he hit me)so when does Yoshi SA frames take place in his DJ if he attacks during it?
Marth's bair is ftw. Seriously beats anything Yoshi tries on the SH level, even his bair. Also Yoshi is vulnerable from below. His dair has absolutely ****ty range, and the only real option he has is to mix up the timing of the down B. Other than that it is juggle fest!!!
However, if that Yoshi lands a grab on you his best throw is probably u-throw if he wants to get a kill, because Marth is absolutely horrible from below, and Yoshi's uair absolutely murders Marth's light weight. Nothing more to say, everything has pretty much been covered so......
That was actually a really good discussion. Very enjoyable read, 65-35, because most Marth's suck.
I guess you are right though. Maybe I'm just not playing good enough Marth's.
Marth doesn't have anything to Counter the DJAD, and being under him will probably happen more often than you thing. Majority of his moves send him upwards. Ftilt, Utilt, Dthrow, Usmash. Egg Roll, Egg Lay, DownB. Also Jabs can be combo into a Throw.
Yoshi's DownB in the Air is just a bad move in general. I only use it in an emergency escape, which everyone should use it for.
I think trying to beat out a Spike, is just completely dangerous, reckless, and plain stupid in general. Even if he can beat it out, I don't think it's worth the risk, especially since Marth's is one of the less lagier ones.
You are probably one of the "Bad" Marth Steel2nd is talking about, so I shouldn't listen to you
No, bair has more significantly more range, power, and it is always fresh, so getting hit by a tippered bair off the ledge usually means a stock at any decent percent. It is much worse if you plan on landing because it doesn't autocancel, but for ledge guarding, it is golden.
I agree with 70:30. The reasons are stated in the thread (obviously)
They run the same speed. I checked it before with a friend.
Probably that.
No. With Bair, Marth swings from low and ends high (upward). This is good for people recovering above Marth. With Fair, Marth swings from high and ends low (downward). This is good for people recovering below Marth. Also, Bair is used much less frequently than Fair, and has just as good, if not better knockback when tipped. This makes it and excellent candidate for that off stage finisher, especially since it's easy to tip, ESPECIALLY after baiting out an air-dodge.
Probably. Rare breed. Kinda like Yoshi mains in general, lol. I'm still sad that Pride quit.
Patience will always beat out an airdodge, and counter will always beat out an attack in the air. Well, actually, Yoshi does have egg lay in the air
.Of course. That and to quickly grab an edge, right?
I yell at other Marth's for not simply perfect shielding all projectiles. If I'm already in the air, I may fan one with Fair though, especially if they're being used to edge-guard.
Eh, it comes out quick, but there is HUGE lag on Marth's Dair. If a Marth misses this move offstage, hog the edge for a stock. If we miss it onstage, start charging a Smash attack.
Probably, lolYou are probably one of the "Bad" Marth Steel2nd is talking about, so I shouldn't listen to you
Eh, maybe, maybe not, but IMO, you just start a ground zoning/juggle trap, and make it hard for Yoshi to land. Uair-> Utilt and Fair->dtilt is too good, amongst other things.
Alright, we encourage further discussion. So far, Yoshi Boards have been very smart and pleasing to talk to.
Yoshi's ftilt outranged Marth's dtilt?!!? Are you sure? Even so, it won't outrange Marth's ftilt (more range, just harder to follow up). You're probably right on outspeeding it, our dtilt is frame 7 and IASA frame 21 I think. However, do remember that dtilt is disjointed, and crawls if used repeatedly, and we can shield at frame 21. (Bout a third of a second after using the attack). Dsmash doesn't beat fair, so it's not really relevant, since you really shouldn't Dsmash at an approaching Marth, who's almost always going to Fair before dtilting (that could just be me though, I find it easier to get my ground spacing by landing, since I'm probably going to be dashing a lot. Walking is still ftw though.)
Once against, don't forget, Fair is disjointed. Marth's will often swing short of their opponent's, just to confirm their zoning. It is possible though that your ftilt beats our Fair. This needs testing and further discussion.
Yeah, you'll probably not hit a fully spaced Marth even with a drawback attack. If we missed but we were going to tipper, you won't reach our hurtbox. Otherwise, our disjointed hitbox wins. Plus, Fsmash is not really safe. This has worked on me before, but not in a way that would affect the match-up, just when I've been spacing bad. Not to mention, Marth has counter.
True, let's talk a bit more, though I still think this is 70-30 Marth, you may be able to persuade me 65-35 if you keep bringing up evidence like that.
Eh, I see your point, but there are several holes in this.
I'm thought Marth could Dolphin Slash out of any of Yoshi's Bair combos. However, I am glad that you are considering juggling, since Marth is weakest from below. If Yoshi's ground zoning is good (and it should be with that dash attack/ftilt/egg toss/grab) then Marth can be juggled to a degree.
At that range, retreating fairs, pivoted attacks, grabs, and Dancing Blade will sink in. We won't need to tip, but might anyway. How much range does your jab have, and how fast does it come out? These will be key factors on if you get ***** in close combat.
Marth's range advantage over Yoshi has not been eliminated, especially since we still have the disjointed sword of win.
True, but seeing as there is no player in the world that can consistantly DR all throughout the match at the moment, this is not a super factor. Yes, DR should be taken in to account. No, it should not end the argument. Rmemeber that people are still playing these characters, and even at highest level of play, DR is not consistant (or Yoshi's would be placing much higher) Just like in Melee, at pinnicle of Fox's potential, the match starts, he hits with one laser, and retreats into JCShine bubble, in which he cannot be touched by any move in the game, and proceeds to run the clock out. This would automatically make him god tier and have a 99-1 match up on every character. However, this is completely impossible to do by a human player. At this day and age, DR is not consistent enough with any player to declare that Yoshi has a spacing advantage over Marth and his Fair and Dtilt.
Why would we ignore you? You have good points and valid inquiries. Simply see my above paragraph.
Oh, the irony of this statement.
i kinda agree with mmac but if u see da down tilt coming it can canceld by our down tilt and ours had more range, and i think da same speed and if yoshi spaces da fair he should be able to find a way to punish da move a grab works well when they just touch the ground. but marth still ***** yoshi not 6.5 to 3..5 but more like 60 to 40
You know, I thought so too, But when Yoshi is standing up, He stands like this: /
Yeah, I'm aware now. It's probably because, like you said, gets frequently less use. especially to Fair
Actually Pride came back. Also, you guys like generally outnumber us like the thousands. Then again, the "Majority" of us actually know how to use Yoshi, but you probably have the same number of people who know how to use Marth.Probably. Rare breed. Kinda like Yoshi mains in general, lol. I'm still sad that Pride quit.
Generally true, but a DJAD isn't like any regular airdodge... Also I don't think counter will hit an Uair strike unless closePatience will always beat out an airdodge, and counter will always beat out an attack in the air. Well, actually, Yoshi does have egg lay in the air
Yep. I think I applied it with "Escaping"
I know that the afterlag is horrendous, But it's still risky as hell trying to beat it out with an attack. When Yoshi attacks, he cancels out the DJA, which could actually save him if the attack connects. The Ending lag is terrible also, so even if Yoshi just simply Airdodges past it, he can simply come back and punish it easily.
Like explained on the top, it probably has to do with the way Yoshi stands. I know The Dtilt is disjointed and can Stabwalk, but it can still stop it effectively. Dsmash I was just talking about Dtilt, but it probably has to do good against both to be effective.
I'm well aware that it's disjointed, but it still seems like it works.
You are forgetting that Marth lunges himself forward when doing an attack. While Marth does outrange it, he is extending his hurtbox into the Range of the Fsmash . I tested this with Ftilt, Dtilt, and Fair at maximum spacing, and they all got hit by the Fsmash (Although Dtilt is probably already in range anyways). I know it's unsafe, but it can still help this matchup a bit.
Yes, Yoshi can crawl, but I never brought it up because I never really implemented it into my game, nor did I think it was a huge factor in this matchup
