Match-Up Discussion #23! Yoshi

[ChronoPenguin]

So uh if new information can bring yoshi to 65:35, from hypothetically.

Can Counterpicking then bring it to a lower level, and by that I mean overall.

Like if there were 7 stages were yoshi had an advantage (not over Marth, but like the stage gave Yoshi extra help) and then 3 stages that boosted up Marth and then everything else was neutral... could that turn it back to 60:40?

Just gone to training mode (ya boo me =P) to test out marths range, I think it's getting a bit overrated (I'm not Insulting Marths range) it's bigger than Yoshi's range, but it's not large enough that Marth can be whimsical just swish swish and wham yoshi's almost shut out.
Also because of the semi-difficulty to tipper.

I also am aware nobody (atleast not yet, or not to my knowledge) can DR as consistently as people WD in melee meaning, it's not going to be natural and any DR tactics are most likely planned in advance.
However DR should make it that yoshi will be capable of weakining Marths Range advantage.
Eggs already Help with that as a Projectile allows for Mid-range attacks.

If DR is infact faster than Marth, Marth will have trouble retreating,counter is a problem, but Fortunately Egg lay can be used on both Ground and Air, which means counter isn't always safe ^.^.


*tosses out more random whatever that comes out of my head in hopes someone can take it and use it*

 

[Emblem Lord]

Stages will effect ratios of course which is why generally for match-up discussion you just look at the two characters.

But for counterpicks and all that yes ratios will be affected.

But that's for every match-up in the game and I don't see too much of a point in listing every ratio for every match-up for every stage.

 

[Mmac]

Stages will only change the general matchup ratio if two things are present

1. Advantages on a number of Neutral Stages
2. Counterpicks which grants us an heavy Advantage on that character.

We have neither of that on Marth. the only stages we have advantages on only lessens his advantage by a minor amount. Marth isn't like MetaKnight were we have advantages on half the Neutral stages and completely destroy him in Counterpicking (But that's another story), theres no way we can change the general matchup with stages in this case.

 

[_Kadaj_]

I don't think the stages should be added

But out of curiosity what stage are you talking about?

 

[Pierce7d]

Pride is back?! YAY!

I think most of the neutral maps favor Marth over Yoshi. FD is kinda more for Yoshi. Platforms just give us egg cover and tricks. BTW, fsmash and ftilt will also hit you off Battlefield's lower platforms, and the upper platform makes Dolphin Slash almost safe on block (not quite on Yoshi)

Also, when you say DJAD, are you talking about Yoshi's super jump?

 

[Mmac]

Pride is back?! YAY!

I think most of the neutral maps favor Marth over Yoshi. FD is kinda more for Yoshi. Platforms just give us egg cover and tricks. BTW, fsmash and ftilt will also hit you off Battlefield's lower platforms, and the upper platform makes Dolphin Slash almost safe on block (not quite on Yoshi)

Also, when you say DJAD, are you talking about Yoshi's super jump?

Yay!

I don't know where to take Marth. I generally do better against him on Battlefield, but Battlefield is my preferred Neutral stage, so I can generally move around it fine. Plus I know how to exploit the platforms to my advantage.

DJAD = Double Jump Airdodge

 

[Pierce7d]

I know DJAD stands for, but it can still be punished just like other air-dodges.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pride isn't back.

It was months ago when we last played.

 

[Pierce7d]

Pride isn't back.

It was months ago when we last played.

I miss Pride. He's the only good Yoshi I've played, and I've fought him twice in tourney, and those were some of the most memorable matches ever.

 

[Zankoku]

Marth is probably one of the best characters when it comes to gimping Yoshi's recovery. His tipper'd nair, dair, and bair say "I don't care if your double jump has armor or not." Once you've got Yoshi sufficiently scared of half your aerials, you can let him try to doublejump airdodge at the stage instead and just jump back and wait for him with an fsmash or something.

 

[Pierce7d]

Yeah, Marth is a trap. I guess though, with all that we've included and managed to come up with Yoshi, we can call it 65-35 Marth. Anyone in major disagreement?

 

[bigman40]

I miss Pride. He's the only good Yoshi I've played, and I've fought him twice in tourney, and those were some of the most memorable matches ever.

I was I could travel to play some more good people T_T

I agree to the 65:35. I think it's accurate. If I find a rare Marth main here, that's good, then I might be able to fully see the matchup.

 

[Mmac]

He's been posting quite a bit in the Yoshi Boards. Says that he's going to a few tournaments soon too

Big tourn this Saturday.... first one since my come back lolol... And m2k will be at the hobo tourn!! woot there is a chance!

Also, I'll agree on 35:65

 

[_Kadaj_]

65:35 sounds good

 

[Ryusuta]

I'm cool with 6.5:3.5 Marth.

 

[Pierce7d]

Well Yoshi mains. I must say that it's been quite a pleasure having you in the Marth boards. This truly was a good discussion that I enjoyed checking and posting in. Expect me to drop by the Yoshi boards here and there.

 

[_Kadaj_]

I enjoyed the disscusion

 

[Deleted member]

Nvm ignore this.

 

[King Yo Lu De]

I guess I have to start this early.

I say this matchup is 60:40. Once you know this matchup, it's really not that hard at all.

First of all, the only advantages Marth has is Range, and a bit more power. Thats it. They both have equal amount of Speed in their attacks. One thing I found on Marth is that every move he has has enough after lag in his attacks to capitalize on. This is going to be a matchup where Yoshi has to play safe, and pick his attacks carefully. Yoshi also wants to avoid using any moves that leave him too open.

While Yoshi doesn't have anything on Marth to abuse from grabs, Pivot Grabs are still important in this matchup, as it's a good approach stopper. Running Grabs are good also for over-defencive Marths, but use with care. Yoshi also has an projectile which can be good to stopping aerial approaches, or forcing Marth to be more aggressive.

In Recovery and Edgeguarding, I actually say that Yoshi has the upper hand. As speedy and rangey his Aerials are, he has no form of Projectile to buff out Yoshi's recovery, making it very hard for him to intercept. Yoshi should be careful too due to Marth's UpB, but he still has a fallback with his Egg's. Yoshi's Dair can actually cancel out his UpB (At least, most of the time for me) so if you go too low, it will actually kill you. His UpB is actually pretty easy to edgehog, but can stagespike if not careful

Overall, Marth's Speed and Range alone is enough to give him an advantage, but he really doesn't have anything else that stands out to gain an solid upper hand on Yoshi. As long as Yoshi's defencive game is good and you don't play too aggressively, it shouldn't be that hard

60:40 Marth

I 100% support this!! Great Thread !!!

 

[Doomblaze]

Can we just lock these or something until we feel we need to discuss them again? This is happening way too often (Yes. twice is way too often)

Please use common sense and dont post 8 months after the last persons post

 

[feardragon64]

Locking it would prevent possible intelligent posts about the topic.

It's annoying but honestly, just ignore them. Every time you post in a stupid topic or reply to a stupid bump, you're bumping it even more. Just leave it alone and it'll die on it's own. This is just a message to people who complain about stupid bump's afterwards. The best thing you can do is to leave it alone.

 

[_Kadaj_]

reference for later

 

[Nike.]

LOL at Kadaj with the bump

I cannot stand this matchup. He completely covers our ledge options, Marth can never kill him, Sacred spot dodge -> dsmash/jab completely beats dancing blade, and pivot grab/ariel neutral-b have broken range.

 

[V]

My friend has an incredibly fast and beast yoshi. I'd bet money if he got into the tourney scene he'd be regarded as one of the best yoshi mains. Yes getting kills are tough so getting reads is paramount unless you wanna let him live til 150 at least. Nair is the best kill move in this match imo. Juggling is probably the best form of damage racking. Honestly the grab isn't very hard to avoid as its very telegraphed. Our best moves imo are fair, nair, bair, jab, dtilt, ftilt, utilt, and uair against yoshi. If he ever shields it should be a free dancing blade; he has the slowest shield drop in the game and a very slow roll. Platform pressure is key. If you land a tipped fsmash or shield break for a kill that should hold momentum for the whole match.

 

[-NL-Miyavi]

I'm bored.....
****ing yoshi, i hate this MU >__>
I can upload a match if people like to or something. This is my view on the MU and how yoshi's play against me.

There are 2 ways this mu can go. Gay or more gay

Yoshi's Strengths

Yoshi's tools are good and underestimated. First of all his eges can be a pain in the ***.
Most of the time when yoshi is on the legde he will throw them like shoes at Bush. The only thing that you can do is time Dtilt or powershield and wait for him to get back on stage to punish him with a fair OoS.
Airial apporouch is also a pain in the ***. He will throw eges and wait for the airdodge and punish your landing with a grab/pivot grab and chew on you and grab release you and do it agian. Dont try to apporouch him when you know he'll throw eges. Try to get close and SH Fair him.

Yoshi's Jab comes starts @ frame 2 and hits on 3-5. His spotdodge jab is broken and annoying so watch out for it. He will follow up with dash attack or grab on low %. Just full hop away form him to give your self a safe landing, if he try to grab you when you full hop just dolphin slash the hell out of him. On high % he'll try to kill you with upsmash so counter it and DONT jump backward yoshi upsmash has a range you dont like. A usual thing yoshi will follow up with @ low % or on your on your shield is dtilt -> dash attack/upsmash

Yoshi's nair is a gimp/killing/combo ending move so watch out for it. Its fast and effective. It kill around 130% or something and near the legde around 100% or so.

His double jump is a pain in the ***. His jump has a Super Armor on frame 1-69 (wtf?). So dont get mad if he jump through youre fair >_>.

His Egg Lay (neutral B) in combination with his double jump also gives him also the super armor frames and its a fast move. If yoshi misses his egg lay by spot dodge he'll jab you untill you drop your shield. Watch out when yoshi lands form the air with his back facing you, he may reverse it. When you expected that nair him or airdodge it.

Now the most important part of the mu. The grabs >_<
Yoshis grab range is annoying, especially his pivot grab. His pivot grab range is big and spotdodge/airdodge wont help all the time. At the end of your spotdodge it will still grab you. Eggs and grabs are yoshis main tools to get damage or to try to combo you. Hopping over his grabs and fairing his big nose is the best option.
If pivot grab doesnt work he'll do it agian, if that also doenst work he'll run away and do a "surprise" bair (its the only GOOD option he has). Powershield it or SH fair it.

Bair is yoshi's (i would say) best spacing move. Most of the time he'll do a rising bair to Upair on mid %.

When yoshi trys to get back on stage he has 3 option.
1. Dspecial to the legde, he'll inimmediately grab the legde. If you know he'll do that try to hog the legde and he'll fly down.
2. Airdodge (duuuhhhh) Just wait and punish it with upair or nair.
3. Dair

His dair can be annoying when it hits you. Its a multiple drill of his feet stepping on your head. If he buffers his landing right you might stil be in the hitlag and he'll ftilt/uptilt/upsmash you. On mid % he'll uptilt you and try to get a mix up like pivot grab or rising upair.

His fair spikes and can be bufferd with jab. If you shield it you can upsmash it OoS to punish it.

Yoshi's Killing moves:
Up air
Nair (on high %)
Fair (spike)
Fsmash
Upsmash

Yoshi's Weakness

Where to begin... Ah, i know, his roll. Yoshi roll is easy to read since yoshi has no OoS option (except grab >_>). Yoshi strength is his shield that covers his whole body, the bad part is the shield drop is slow. Call it a double egde sword. Most yoshi's will spotdodge so punish it with fsmash/fair/dtilt
Yoshi is also a easy target to juggle. Since dair is his only landing with giving you some hits he will do it 70% of the time. Just time the upair and you dont even know yoshi's dair exists. He can FF (fast fall) and use upair but it isnt a safe move for yoshi so dont count on that one.
His second jump is a big jump but easy to punish with upair. Yoshi only has bair and nair for in the air, but marths swords out range everything yoshi has. Shield beaker in this MU and Dancing blade is a must since yoshi cant do a thing agianst it.
When you know he'll go for a dash attack or hypen upsmash, shield -> DB/UpSmash his big nose. Dtilt is also a great tool to outrange him on the ground. Try using Dtilt when he trys to land or throws eggs form close by.

For the people who knows how to do running Fsmash it a great tool against yoshi since he cant do a thing about it.
When yoshi comes back from the legde just shield his legde attack and punish it with dolhpin slash. When yoshi is on high % and gets back on the stage by get-up attack you can tipped fsmash him easily. His roll back on stage is slow and punished easily by upsmash
If yoshi want to get on stage by low recovery he'll spotdodge for sure. Run with him the same way he is going and fair/nair him or hypen upsmash.
Try running of stage and jumping back on stage with nair when he comes back on stage it very usefull and knocks him back off stage most of the time.

If yoshi trys to space bair punish it by DB (dancing blade) or fair and try to mix it up a little. If your going for SH fair -> Up air its gonna be a 50/50 chance he will do nair.

When powershielding and grabbing go for the f-throw -> fair and try to mix it up a little bit. D- throw and pivot grab are great against incoming attacks.

Generally
60:40 in marth advantage.

Yoshi is easy to intercept, with fairs, annoying char to agianst >_>

Its a easy match up when you get the hang of it but hard to do because most of the time yoshi will be campy. Dont play to aggressive or else you'll get a nair in youre face and you'll get easily frustrated.
Also marth has a grab to fsmash at 0% and out range everything yoshi has. Watch out for the eggs it can reck up the damage pretty well.
When yoshi is recovering from low try for a footstool. Marths speed and range gives him the most advantage in the MU.


Damnz i was reallllyyy bored O_o'' Btw dont pay attention to my grammar. I suck in grammar >_>