Match-Up Discussion #23! Yoshi

[Mmac]

I guess I mistyped what I meant. lol

Yoshi will play defensive, Marth will play defensive. Marth's Defense > Yoshi's Defense.

Marth can switch to slight offense anytime as well. Yoshi is shut down by Marths Defense.

Yoshi has hardly any options. Yoshi is gonna have to camp. Meaning a Patience will be key for Marth.

I still don't see how Marth can hold a defence together if Yoshi doesn't fall for it. Plus Yoshi can easily fake you out into an offence.

Fair does not have lag when auto cancelled, which it should be. I say 65-35. If Marth plays smart, he should have no problem in this fight, meaning correct spacing and not too many mistakes. I seem to recall that all of Yoshi's best kill moves are laggy, meaning if Marth can stay defensive at higher damage percents, he can live for a long time. Marth can kill Yoshi easier than vice versa, because of his aerial killer and gimping possibilities. Regarding gimping, Yoshi CANNOT get hit to far to one side while off stage because he will die, and because Marth is a good gimper normally, this should not be too big of a problem, so Marth if he plays smart like he should all the time, should win this fairly easily.

It doesn't, but I meant as an aerial standpoint. Plus if Yoshi is on the ground, he can easily Pivot Grab it if not spaced right. Only his Fsmash is Laggy, and maybe his Usmash too, but it's still pretty quick, so it seems like you are just basing it off of false statistics. You also don't seem to know anything about Yoshi's recovery at all. Marth will have a very difficult time gimping Yoshi because of his DJAD and has no efficient way of countering it.

 

[bigman40]

Retreating egg is good, because you want to GTFO of marth's range as soon as you can. But as I'm visualizing it, a dash to dancing blade will screw Yoshi over since he will be SH'ng backwards and throwing an egg in air. Marth crouches low to the ground as he dashes, i'm pretty sure DB will be able to punish a retreating egg attempt.

Not the move he was talking about. When he mentioned a retreating Egg toss, he meant using the ETS (egg toss slide). Yoshi will slide backwards out of range and throw the egg in your face at the same time.

 

[Pierce7d]

I still don't see how Marth can hold a defence together if Yoshi doesn't fall for it. Plus Yoshi can easily fake you out into an offence.

Please elaborate how you will penetrate a fair, dtilt, and jab wall, with random Dancing Blade cannons firing at you everytime you're open. Trust me, we really won't smash, or leave ourselves open unless you're completely open, like your shield is broken open.

It doesn't, but I meant as an aerial standpoint. Plus if Yoshi is on the ground, he can easily Pivot Grab it if not spaced right. Only his Fsmash is Laggy, and maybe his Usmash too, but it's still pretty quick, so it seems like you are just basing it off of false statistics. You also don't seem to know anything about Yoshi's recovery at all. Marth will have a very difficult time gimping Yoshi because of his DJAD and has no efficient way of countering it.

This is true. Yoshi will rarely fail to recover, having egg toss before and after the jump. Eggs really hinder edgeguarding, and they gather a LOT of horizontal distance.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I still don't see how Marth can hold a defence together if Yoshi doesn't fall for it. Plus Yoshi can easily fake you out into an offence.



It doesn't, but I meant as an aerial standpoint. Plus if Yoshi is on the ground, he can easily Pivot Grab it if not spaced right. Only his Fsmash is Laggy, and maybe his Usmash too, but it's still pretty quick, so it seems like you are just basing it off of false statistics. You also don't seem to know anything about Yoshi's recovery at all. Marth will have a very difficult time gimping Yoshi because of his DJAD and has no efficient way of countering it.

For the gimping, i know about DJAD, and one word for you: edgehog. This can fail though if an egg is thrown, which is a good tactic and essential if Yoshi wants to stay alive. And by "if not spaced right" you mean Marth right? I can agree with you there, but that's why I said Marth must play smart, and by that I mean spacing, sorry if I wasn't clear there. I said I wasn't sure abut kill moves, so you are right there I guess.

 

[Steel]

Solid please.. stay out of this one lmao

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

OK... Ya sometimes I dig myself into holes and fail at getting out of them on SWF when i'm talking about a character that I don't know *cough*Yoshi*cough* with someone who knows more than me about said character. *cough*Mmac*cough* So I will lurk on this thread and not post anymore. Good bye.

 

[Mmac]

If Marth is standing outside his own and Yoshi's range by a character length or two.. I highly doubt you would be able to pivot grab a dash to dancing blade from Marth. Sometimes people can't even react fast enough to shield. Though this isn't meant to be used as an approach that often.

It seems like a good approach. Quick, Multihits, Decent Range, and Shield Poking on the last part of the attack, and barley punishable. I guess I'm missing something.

If we are zoning you with fairs and such an egg is very unsafe because Marth would be so close. That's like Falco trying to do a SHDL while being zoned by Marth. It doesn't work.

I guess It depends on the Distance really. Probably my distance is probably unfesiable. Maybe I should have said an Aerial based Marth

Retreating egg is good, because you want to GTFO of marth's range as soon as you can. But as I'm visualizing it, a dash to dancing blade will screw Yoshi over since he will be SH'ng backwards and throwing an egg in air. Marth crouches low to the ground as he dashes, i'm pretty sure DB will be able to punish a retreating egg attempt.

He can Slide Backwards with the Egg's, so he doesn't need to Shorthop Backwards

I'm honestly leaning towards 70:30 right now, but Yoshi boards must agree too.

I don't think it's 70:30 because Game & Watch (Who is our current hardest matchup, but I think Lucario is even harder) has us listed the same, and theres no way that Marth is at the same caliber. Stupid reason yeah, but I can't really ignore that

And you guys go too fast! I can't keep up!

 

[Mmac]

Please elaborate how you will penetrate a fair, dtilt, and jab wall, with random Dancing Blade cannons firing at you everytime you're open. Trust me, we really won't smash, or leave ourselves open unless you're completely open, like your shield is broken open.

I guess Marth is harder than I think, but I usually rely on forcing Marth being aggressive than staying defencive, so I don't usually run into those problems (Or reducing that problem by putting Marth into an irregular position). guess those Marth's don't have any patience >_>

I know Marth's aren't smash happy, so please stop treating me like that

Edit: Crap, I was hoping someone would have posted >_>

 

[Steel]

I don't understand that.

It's a completely different match up and Marth outranges GW. This IS a very bad match up for Yoshi. No yoshis have set to prove us otherwise. Marth has the range and proper tools to shine in this match and Yoshi just doesn't.


And dancing blade how i described it can be used to approach yeah, but if the opponent does manage to shield it WILL be punished.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Dancing blade should never be an approach.

 

[Pierce7d]

Marth really rarely need to edgehog Yoshi, as he should be making it back onto stage or edge pretty consistently. In rare instances, Marth will hit Yoshi in such a peculiar way after Yoshi has used his double jump, that Yoshi would only be able to reach the edge with egg toss, but that really has nothing to do with match-up discussion, and considering Yoshi's awesome second jump,

What are Yoshi's options for turning around while recovering? Just reverse egg throw and reverse egg lay? Reverse Yoshi Bomb doesn't really seem attributive to your cause.

 

[bigman40]

Alrighty! I just finished that crap so I can debate a little.

Before I start making random assumptions and/or underrating the Ftilt, can someone explain to me how it's a complete shutdown? Just to get clarification. Also, explain why dancing blade is a good approach.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I guess Marth is harder than I think, but I usually rely on forcing Marth being aggressive than staying defencive

Marth can do both at the same time. That's what Zoning is all about.

Before I start making random assumptions and/or underrating the Ftilt, can someone explain to me how it's a complete shutdown? Just to get clarification. Also, explain why dancing blade is a good approach.

F-tilt has great horizontal and vertical range, while also having low lag considering how far it hits. When properlly spaced it is pretty much unpunishable.

Dancing blade is not a good approach. It's a great mixup in combination with other approaches (fair, d-tilt, grabs, ect.)

 

[Pierce7d]

It seems like a good approach. Quick, Multihits, Decent Range, and Shield Poking on the last part of the attack, and barley punishable. I guess I'm missing something.

Eh, it's alright if your shield is already weak, but if shielded or dodged appropriately, this move is not really safe. It has just enough cooldown lag to be punishable. Still, since so many people spam spot dodge expecting a grab, it's a good mix-up tool.

I guess It depends on the Distance really. Probably my distance is probably unfesiable. Maybe I should have said an Aerial based Marth

Definitely. Marth can punish close range eggs, especially with perfect shield. This is your ace, as it forces Marth to approach, but in mid range, you can't safely throw eggs, and you can't safely close the remaining distance. Marth can use poke at Yoshi with tilts, shieldbreaker, and aerials (primarily fair) and Yoshi can't do much about this.

He can Slide Backwards with the Egg's, so he doesn't need to Shorthop Backwards

Right. This is good. It helps your spacing.

I don't think it's 70:30 because Game & Watch (Who is our current hardest matchup, but I think Lucario is even harder) has us listed the same, and theres no way that Marth is at the same caliber. Stupid reason yeah, but I can't really ignore that

I want to believe G&W is better than 70:30 on you, but many people are afraid to assign ratings like this against certain characters.

And you guys go too fast! I can't keep up!

Bring in your Yoshi friends to help out.

Dancing blade should never be an approach.

Wrong. It should be used as a mix-up, after condition your opponent to spot dodge. It can also be used if your opponent's shield is low.

Marth can do both at the same time. That's what Zoning is all about.

Precisely.

F-tilt has great horizontal and vertical range, while also having low lag considering how far it hits. When properlly spaced it is pretty much unpunishable.

Right on the money again. Also, f-tilt is primarily use to stop SH approaches. For grounded approaches, we tend to prefer dtilt, as it's even safer (slightly less range, but IASA frame 21 or so)

Dancing blade is not a good approach.

See above.

 

[ZHMT]

Alrighty! I just finished that crap so I can debate a little.

Before I start making random assumptions and/or underrating the Ftilt, can someone explain to me how it's a complete shutdown? Just to get clarification. Also, explain why dancing blade is a good approach.

Ftilt beats any aerial or short hop approach that Yoshi will throw at Marth. Yoshi cannot win if he does not attack, the ftilt is a great tool here. It also hits ground approaches as well, any attack towards Marths face is beaten by the Ftilt, with exception to the grab and Egg Toss.

First hit dancing blade is nice as a mixup while approaching, not a good approach in general. It keeps Yoshi guessing and forces Yoshi to go over defensive where his shield may become shattered, if played right of course.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Of course Yoshi will try to avoid shielding if possible anyway, since his shield options are rather limited. But I'm not sure if Pivot grabbing will be applicable here.

 

[Mmac]

I don't understand that.

It's a completely different match up and Marth outranges GW. This IS a very bad match up for Yoshi. No yoshis have set to prove us otherwise. Marth has the range and proper tools to shine in this match and Yoshi just doesn't.

True, probably is a stupid reason.

I dunno, it's just a difficult matchup to explain really. On paper it seems like Marth has a clear and solid advantage (And I actually thought that way). When I fight Marth's though, it doesn't seem that hard at all. Marth has punishable afterlag in the majority of his attacks and his attacks are usually short lasting, Something that I can exploit on.

I admit that Marth has an advantage and Yoshi does have problems against him, I just don't think the advantage is that sizeable.

Ftilt beats any aerial or short hop approach that Yoshi will throw at Marth. Yoshi cannot win if he does not attack, the ftilt is a great tool here. It also hits ground approaches as well, any attack towards Marths face is beaten by the Ftilt, with exception to the grab and Egg Toss.

I find that just simply Airdodgeing the Ftilt is the best way you can counter it. You can usually get in with a quick Jab or Tilt on landing

^^Of course Yoshi will try to avoid shielding if possible anyway, since his shield options are rather limited. But I'm not sure if Pivot grabbing will be applicable here.

Pivot Grabbing is still pretty useful, but not as useful compared to the other matchup's due to Marth's range.

 

[Zankoku]

Marth's attacks not lasting for very long simply means that the Marth player should be precise and can't just spam stuff thinking it'll work. : P

 

[ZHMT]

I find that just simply Airdodgeing the Ftilt is the best way you can counter it. You can usually get in with a quick Jab or Tilt on landing

If Marth spaced right, that is just gonna get you grabbed or Dolphin slashed.

 

[Pierce7d]

When I fight Marth's though, it doesn't seem that hard at all.

Fight better Marths.

Marth has punishable afterlag in the majority of his attacks

. . . are you sure you're not getting confused with Ike?

and his attacks are usually short lasting, Something that I can exploit on.

True, possible our third biggest weakness after no safe kill moves and gimpable recovery. (seriously, hit Marth with a dtilt after he fails to sweetspot the ledge, and just hog, lol)

I admit that Marth has an advantage and Yoshi does have problems against him, I just don't think the advantage is that sizeable.

It is. It's simply that most Marth's are not good, so don't worry about it too much, lol. Plus, for some reason, people in general don't know how to perfect shield, so eggs do a lot more, and a Marth that doesn't know how to deal with basic projectile harassment is much easier than others.

I find that just simply Airdodgeing the Ftilt is the best way you can counter it. You can usually get in with a quick Jab or Tilt on landing.

Eh, what ZMT said. Plus, as I mentioned, this won't be used often. Just every once in a while, and to muff SH approaches.

 

[Mmac]

Fight better Marths.

I dunno, I play alot of Marth's.

. . . are you sure you're not getting confused with Ike?

Yes

K, Marth obviously doesn't dave Ike'ish lag, but he still has afterlag in his attacks where quick characters can exploit on

It is. It's simply that most Marth's are not good, so don't worry about it too much, lol. Plus, for some reason, people in general don't know how to perfect shield, so eggs do a lot more, and a Marth that doesn't know how to deal with basic projectile harassment is much easier than others.

Guess it true, Marth is pretty popular so Noobs probably flock to him. I have played good Marth's though (At least, I think they were good >_> ).

About Projectiles, I'm not using my Projectile as a way to gather damage though, but rather as a method to force Marth to be more aggressive.

Eh, what ZMT said. Plus, as I mentioned, this won't be used often. Just every once in a while, and to muff SH approaches.

Hmmm.... I still think he can get in quick enough, even if he spaces it (at least, from the air). Plus I thought someone said that Ftilt was one of your primary moves...

 

[Dr Peepee]

Marth:

-better kiling moves (kills faster at least)
-more range (mostly)
-much better control (aerials/Dtilts and all)
-better aerial mobility
-can punish easier
-can punish Yoshi's recovery pretty harshly (not always gimp)

Yoshi:

-excellent grab game (with pivot grab)
-pretty good recovery when used correctly
-projectile control
-Bair strongly contests Marth's Fair (some people say it beats, I don't actually know though)
-fairly quick smashes with at least decent kill potential
-egg lay can disrupt zoning (hard to land/predict)
-can edgeguard Marth decently with DJ edgeguard


Seems like a pretty uphill matchup for Yoshi here. Marth's insane control game with varied Fair walls, Dtilt traps, and first hit Dancing Blade strikes can really hurt Yoshi here. Yoshi even has the disadvantage of not being able to shield (not have any real options: can;t JC aerials, slower roll too I think. His only other option is grab which probably won't work...) against Marth's walls though, which can allow Marth to control Yoshi with more ease than other characters.
True, projectiles amd the Bair can hurt Marth to an extent, but these options can become unsafe as Marth pushes Yoshi farther towards an edge. When this happens, Yoshi doesn't really seem to have an escape plan. Marth can then set up his incredible spacing game which forces Yoshi to either shield (bad), aerial towards Marth (punished either by normal zoning or timed Ftilt), or maybe try to force some other move.

With Yoshi off of the edge, Marth is free to whack away at Yoshi when he uses his "invincible" second jump. If nothing else, this only ensures that Yoshi will be off the stage again soon due to the chip damage piling on quickly.

Then again, that's what determines most matchup difficulties: how quickly the damage can go up to finish off of a character. Because Marth outranges Yoshi by such a large degree (with Bair constantly in mind, it's easy to plan around it), Marth can pretty much force Yoshi to do whatever he wants.

Now then, this is not to say that Yoshi has no defenses at all, but most of them are fairly minimalized by Marth's basic gameplan, so he will have to change up his gameplan. As someone stated, there will be plenty of egg tossing and running in this matchup because that's a key advantage Yoshi has over Marth. By mixing in egg lay with Yoshi's other tactics (forgive me for not knowing much to Yoshi other than Dragonic Reverse, egg lay to disrupt spacing, and DJ edgeguard is still in lol), Yoshi can stand a chnace. Just not much of a chance.


My ratio in light of what was probably a merry-go-round of logic: 70:30.



Erm, to whichever Yoshi is taking Calc 2, that's pretty good stuff man. I'm in Calculus right now, so props to ya mang.

 

[Pierce7d]

Stuff

Eh, ftilt is just our approach stopper, and if you airdodge a well-spaced ftilt into Marth, we will have time to use our frame 4 Dancing Blade, or respace.

What after lag in attacks are you talking about. Fair, and dtilt are super safe when spaced, and connect with each other. The Marth's you've played probably don't dtilt enough. Very few do. Even I don't, lol.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Seriously.

What reliable tools does Yoshi have other then egg toss and pivot grabs?

Yoshi has two moves to make up the backbone of his gameplan?

Throw eggs so Marth will run at you and you do back dash to pivot grab?

Really? You are gonna do this all day to victory?

No, sir. Not happening. Marth has far more up his sleeve. Better punishers, better edgeguarding, better kill moves, better range overall, better approach, better defensive options.

The keyword being...better.

So if Marth has better pretty much everything, how is this match..not that hard for Yoshi? The answer of course, is that it IS hard for Yoshi.

65/35 at BEST. 70/30 seems more likely. G&W would also be 70/30 at least for his own reasons.

For the record Yoshi's advantages are having a projectile, having a good grab game, and being heavier.

That's it.

Yeah.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Lol why is EL so good at saying what I wanna say much more concisely than I can?

 

[Dark Sonic]

About Projectiles, I'm not using my Projectile as a way to gather damage though, but rather as a method to force Marth to be more aggressive.

He will indeed be more aggressive...defensively.
retreating fairs, d-tilts, DB to stop egg attempts, f-tilt to stop SH attempts, really he's just going to sit in your face and camp. Why even bother approaching when you can just walk foward a little bit and be in perfect range to stop their camping, without having to actually commit yourself to anything. Just continue racking damage safely until they start dieing from aerials (or DB)

 

[Pierce7d]

Exactly.

Also, Yoshi's Bair does not beat Marth's Fair. I'm relatively sure that Fair comes out faster (frame 4) and it's disjointed, which is why Marth WINS in the air. Yoshi's Bair extends his hurtbox (kinda), while Marth just swings his big sword at them, and offers no additional risk to himself.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Oh ok. 70:30 is certainly accurate then.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why has no one mentioned the horrible horrible unfair rapefest that Marth unleashes when Yoshi blocks anything from him?

Shield pressure is not Yoshi's friend, but she happens to be Marth's sweet mistress.

If Marth forces a block and he will, Yoshi becomes SEVERELY limited.

How is this not 70/30?

 

[Pierce7d]

Oh ok. 70:30 is certainly accurate then.

Yes. Theoretically, in robotic play, it would be even worse for Yoshi, but it's foolish to say Yoshi will never penetrate Marth's defense. The thing is, if the Marth is good (and **** that's rare) then the Yoshi would have to consistently make such penetrations and it's tipped highly in Marth's favor.

Why has no one mentioned the horrible horrible unfair rapefest that Marth unleashes when Yoshi blocks anything from him?

Shield pressure is not Yoshi's friend, but she happens to be Marth's sweet mistress.

If Marth forces a block and he will, Yoshi becomes SEVERELY limited.

How is this not 70/30?

Actually, I did mean to comment on this, thanks for reminding me.

Yoshis, how good is Yoshi's Nair outta shield?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Not even in perfect play man.

Yoshi shields something and he has one reliable option. Roll away. That's it. He can't even gamble with a JC out of shield since he CAN'T JC from shield.

If Yoshi shields it's pretty much guaranteed that he takes damage.

 

[Pierce7d]

OH YEAH! I forgot Yoshi can't JC outta shield. ****, Yoshi gets *****, your best offensive options outta shield are grab, jab, and maybe ftilt then, and these do not really affect us when we space fairs. ****. that's sucks.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth's d-tilt is Yoshi's worst nightmare in this match.

 

[Bwett]

What reliable tools does Yoshi have other then egg toss and pivot grabs?

This is the ultimate question and the answer is that Yoshi doesn't even have egg toss to work with him. Personally, I say Marth Yoshi match-up is either 65:35 or 70:30.

A big factor in the match-up with Marth is off the edge fighting. Out of almost all characters, I'd say I am most afraid of the potential that Marth has for gimping and plain killing Yoshi while off the stage.

Here is a breakdown of when Yoshi gets hit off the stage:

While he is far off, Marth can jump off and go straight into repeated fairs. Because Yoshi only has three options, attack (stupid because your attacks either have long startup time or low priority), dodge (stupid since he can just fair again once your invincibility goes away), or DJ air dodge (only viable option since you MIGHT get away), he can get slaughtered so easily.

Also, if Yoshi makes it to the edge, dtilt, fsmash, dair, and side-b easily await you. The safest move Yoshi has from the ledge with most characters is to drop, followed by double jump into some mix up which can include anything from air dodge, attack, ledge grab again, or nothing. In each of these instances, Marth has a strategy to combat all of them with relative ease.

One of the absolute biggest problems with this match-up is Marth's side-b. Yoshi Does Not, under any circumstances, have a way to beat the move. A marth can spam the hell out of them move and beat a Yoshi. Why? Yoshi's shield. Because of Yoshi's extra time OOS punishing, you can't punish Marth's side-b at all, let alone spot dodge it. Because of this and the fact that Marth's side-b is one of his bread and butter moves, Yoshi gets owned. Not only that but if Yoshi does one of his main kill moves, fsmash, and marth shields it, he slides right into tipper range for his fsmash...ridiculous.

So marth outranges and beats yoshi close range. So you say, well how about egg tossing and spamming to beat him? Doesn't work. Because of the way that marth dashes (very low and quite fast), you will get instantly punished for ETS'ing even twice. Yoshi's egg is not made for keeping marth back. Along with that, I'm fairly positive that marth can side-b eggs, so that is a sage approach with no punishment.

The strange thing about Marth is that he cuts off Yoshi's moves so badly that he forces Yoshi to do things that are more dangerous because Marth destroys his "safer" options. Instead of drop off edge->DJ, we are forced to use a ledge jump or get-up attack. Instead of spot dodge or shield an attack, we are forced to either take it or roll. Instead of egging to keep him back, we are forced to play his game the entire time. It is an uphill battle from the get go and does not get easy once you learn the match-up. This is easily one of yoshi's hardest match-ups in my opinion.

 

[Earth_Swords_Man_009]

D-tilt in general is everyone's worse nightmare. Great way to keep opponent at bay.

Emblem Lord - 70 / 30 Marth for the G&W match up...eh...I would give G&W more credit than that. Eh...I would like to know why but not on this topic since it's not about him.

 

[Gindler]

Dtilt seriously? I have yet to see a marth do just one Dtilt so when they do start the dtilt fest I use an autocancelled Fair.

Sure marth's fair is annoying, but they'll usually just swing it around to keep yoshi at bay, and being an aggressive yoshi i see this pretty often, however fair spamming just leads me to standing just far enough to no get hit.

Does marth seriously have better aerial mobility when he's ranked at 12th? having the highest aerial speed I thought yoshi would surely have decent aerial mobility too.

Yoshi's best kill move is Uair, and from what I've noticed marth's Dair isn't exactly a good defensive option against the speed of the Uair (marth's dair his slowest move?)...of course a good marth will try and stay near the ground at all costs.

Yoshi's biggest advantage(s) i think in this matchup is the better recovery and edge guarding game, rising Nair is pretty good.

I really don't have too much trouble against G&Ws myself, surely lucario is the worst. Marth is pretty difficult but not nearly as bad as those two. So seeing how marth can avoid yoshi's best advantages in the match I'd say its 65:35 in marth's favor...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Only one d-tilt is needed. Most Marth's are a little too poke happy.

I honestly standy 70/30 as Yoshi has no way to really take control and stay in control. Yoshi really has no way to go head to head with Marth and his shield screws him when he is on defense.

 

[Bwett]

Yoshi's biggest advantage(s) i think in this matchup is the better recovery and edge guarding game, rising Nair is pretty good.

In this instance, Marth has the better edge guarding game. A good marth is hard to gimp or edge guard whatsoever. Fsmash can kill ECE's instantly while Yoshi has no way of punishing while Marth is off the edge. Fair is just that powerful against what are considered your best off the edge tactics.

Only one d-tilt is needed. Most Marth's are a little too poke happy.

I honestly standy 70/30 as Yoshi has no way to really take control and stay in control. Yoshi really has no way to go head to head with Marth and his shield screws him when he is on defense.

QFT

 

[Mmac]

**** it! I had a huge sentence but I deleted it

I'll just address some things briefly.

I think everyone is missing the concept of Yoshi's Recovery. Yoshi DJAD's to make it invincible, not because he has Armour. I also have no problem recovering even against Marth. He shouldn't hit you out of your recovery at all.

Also Yoshi isn't a Shield Character, so he can't really rely on his shield as a primary defence.

I had alot more to say, but I'm just too tired. I'm willing to go on with a 65:35.

I still don't think he that hard though, and his advantages aren't that sizeable.

 

[Bwett]

I think everyone is missing the concept of Yoshi's Recovery. Yoshi DJAD's to make it invincible, not because he has Armour. I also have no problem recovering even against Marth. He shouldn't hit you out of your recovery at all.

If you are talking about DJAD past a marth that is edge hugging, then you will get side-b punished once you come out of invincibility.