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Match up disagreements: Wolf!

Underload

Underload

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Mojoe's 11 or 12.

And yes, he did cry, throw his controller, and kick a table. An ex-Coloradan who went to UNLV for college went to that tourney, and he was watching the set. I talked to him just last Saturday, and this was one of the things we talked about.

And can we get some serious discussion? This is kind of sad, what this thread has come to in the recent pages.

edit:

Underload said:
I'm a huge proponent of top-level play defining the overall metagame of a fighter. But I'm also against traditional matchup discussion, because there's usually too much individual playstyle mixed into a fighter boil a matchup down to pure facts. For example, Falco is very well suited for a rushdown mind reading playstyle. But it's usually safer to play relaxed and campy with him, and slow the game down to give yourself an inherent advantage. Both styles are like opposite ends of a spectrum, but both have been proven to work. Snake, also, has the arsenal to sit back and fire / throw things at you for 8 minutes, but his tilts and throws are also at such a level where you're just tempted to run up and hit somebody. Whichever aspect you take advantage of the most makes up your playstyle. And because of this, it becomes near impossible to bring a MU discussion down to the mere facts, because there's always one thing stacking on top of another.

Here's Larry vs. Ally from ActiveGamers. Most of the match is made up of pokes, prods, and reads, with an error of judgment usually deciding who loses a stock. The match ends with Larry winning, final stock, ~140%. From this whole set, you can deem that Snake vs. Falco is a pretty even matchup, maybe even slightly in Falco's favor.

Here's SK92 vs. Mojoe. Do you get the same feeling from this match that you did from Larry vs. Ally? Pokes, prods, reads, neck and neck? Of course not.

I rambled. Sorry. Maybe you can pull something useful out of that post, though :/ I felt like posting my thoughts.
Click to expand...
Briefly talks about why I don't like traditional matchup discussions like these. Read if you want and tell me what you think.
 
DMG

DMG

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DMG#931
Crouching works. Removes the frame advantage Falco has from lasers.
 
rPSIvysaur

rPSIvysaur

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Did DMG say you could talk?

Anyway, their is no definite winner in this MU. Also, depending on stage this MU changes alot.
 
LucasGrey

LucasGrey

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yea you could actually tell that mojoe didn't just lose because sk92 seemed more skilled but also because sk92 controled the stage much better than mojoe possibly could have.
And on the first match he did much better which was on smashville.
 
LucasGrey

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6Mizu said:
umm....no 55:45 Falco's fav.
We die from Falco right around 150%. Also, can you even get close enough to hit Falco?
(camp, camp, camp, side-b etc.)
Click to expand...
Agreed plus snake of stage can be quite a good target and with falco you can just force the opponent to airdodge off stage and then hit them when they are vunerable or of course just spike snake even though he might not die spiking him always puts him in a bad position.
 
Kool Aid

Kool Aid

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sorry im late lol. i finally found a way to use smashboards.

anyway. i think snake vs pit are even. or something stupid like 52-48 snake.
Sure you can arrow spam snake but it won't work on the good snakes that can power shield and block arrows with ftilt =/.
 
Yumewomiteru

Yumewomiteru

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Why couldnt you use it before did you get banned?

and is it easier to PS arrows or ftilt it? as in which one needs more precision?
 
DMG

DMG

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DMG#931
Side B Snake can punish, even if it is only a shield grab.

Most characters can punish Side B even when used smartly, people just mess up so much and don't factor it in properly when doing stuff.
 
napZzz

napZzz

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I liked the part where DMG used his knowledge to let people know whats up

I still think this is falcos favor slightly like 55/45, I'd even push for something a bit higher but thats just me sucking at this game
 
Yumewomiteru

Yumewomiteru

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Falcos were just discussing the Snake matchup, lemme quote something that DEHF said:

DEHF said:
The reason Falco vs Snake is even or in Falco's favor is Falco's ability to hit snake into bad positions. Firstly, Falco has a 0-50 chain grab into a spike which can cause snake to be off the edge. When he's at that point, the way he recovers will result him to come back at about 80-100%, possibly higher or even dead. If Snake gets spike onto the stage you can predict how he will roll. Again, this can result in him having 80-100% at the end of this. If you don't predict him correctly, oh well he's at about 60ish%.

Your main objective in this match up is to keep snake in the air facing you. When he's in the position, his best options or to air dodge or pull out a grenade. Dash attack up smash is a great move in this match up. It gives close to 30% damage and sends them right above you. If you are incredibly precise with u air those two options won't matter since you can hit him without hitting the grenade and if he air dodges uair you can do another aerial before he has enough time to do anything about it. Snake, being so heavy won't go too far so you should be able to follow up something else. Depending on how well you shut his options down in the air, he can be juggled his entire stock or until killing %.

Killing Snake can be difficult since he can live for so long, but you a have a variety of ways to do so. If you can hit a ground snake with dair, he can't do much except for air dodge. This put you in the perfect position to f smash. If you're afraid to f smash, you can short hop u air to force an air dodge which will give you enough time to u smash. Even if he isn't at killing % when you hit him with a smash, you can chase him in the air and finish him off with a uair or bair depending on where he is in the air. If you can hit him with a smash at about 110 or 120 you should be able to kill him with a uair or bair depending on how high in the air he is.

Whenever you play a Snake he always does a great deal of damage whenever he hits you, but he's not too great on follow up attacks. What I'm saying is once he gives that 20% you're usually put back in a neutral position or in a place where he can't hit you again. Even when he's in complete control of the stage the most damage he'll ever get from follow ups or good predictations is 40% max. Falco on the other hand can give snake anywhere from 20-60% whenever he makes good follow ups and can result in snake being off the stage or above you.
Click to expand...
So yeah thats why I see this as pretty much even.
 
Attila_

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couldnt help but notice no one has mentioned the 'grab release to regrab' that we have on falco. obviously stages can get in the way, but this is a very useful technique regardless. 3 frames of space to play with aswell, so its hard, but by no means impossible to do consistently.
 
S

Superspright

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Plus, you can grab release falco out of his recovery if he doesn't autosnap. Not like that will happen much--but it will kill him at the edge. Just snap the ledge after he air releases.
 
OverLade

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I think this matchup is probably about even. I have some matches vs. Kismet I will upload later, but I dont believe they're good representation of what the matchup "could look like". For the most part I think it comes down to player skill and knowledge of the matchup, though Snake has a few aces in the whole that Falco can't "specifically" do anything about.

Jab beats Side B. This means that Snake can pressure falco and as long as he guesses right he can intercept Falcos "run away move".

Release Chaingrab. The release Chaingrab (if actually applied like it could be on paper, though I've yet to see a Snake try this and I'm not good enough at it to do it yet) could set up Dthrows by the ledge, which results in easy tech chasing and kill setups. If done properly, this would make getting grabbed by Snake almost as bad as being grabbed by Falco, except from Snakes side it would be applicable at any percent.

I think this matchup is extremely underdeveloped though so I wouldn't jump to say any side has the advantage yet.
 
Attila_

Attila_

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if i remember correctly from one of the threads susa made ages ago, there is a 3 frame gap. so its hard, but nowhere near impossible. main problems with are platforms getting in the way. cp fd anyone? lol
 
$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$

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berserker01 said:
I think it's even. Seriously, I don't see it jumping to anyones favor.
Click to expand...
I agree. Everyone knows Falco got the CGs and the camping and Snake over here got the nades to prevent Falco to CG him and over powered tilts. Both Snake and Falco can pressure each other depending on the gameplay and the players. I can the match-up even or slightly in Falco's favor, but mostly I still the match-up 50/50. I usually spam DAC to rush Falco and stop him from spamming lazers all day.
 
Berserker.

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I think it could be slightly Snake's favor but seriously, 50:50. DEHF says so anyway.
 
cenel

cenel

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Larry's post is the truth. Never seen anyone describe a matchup that well on smashboards. I play our best falco regularly and I experience EXACTLY the same stuff he mentions. It's even or for Falco. Snake has no advantage here.
 
luke_atyeo

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so we all know about snakes chainthrow on falco, but damage wise it does very little, if we chain him out over the edge though, what options do we have? if we spaced it right would a run off double jump uair be fast enough to be in-escapable? what other gay things can we do?
 
rPSIvysaur

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Hey, I'd like to point out that for the MOTHER boys the ratios should be worse by about five points. Me and Yink have talked about our MU's with Snake. There's little for us to against your camping and if you grab us at 100 we're autodead with GR into U-tilt.

Lucas Vs. Snake: 30:70

I won't give anything definite for Ness, I'd rather let Yink do that.
 
6Mizu

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6Mizu said:
I'll see what Ally says.....k?
Click to expand...
RocketPSIence said:
Hey, I'd like to point out that for the MOTHER boys the ratios should be worse by about five points. Me and Yink have talked about our MU's with Snake. There's little for us to against your camping and if you grab us at 100 we're autodead with GR into U-tilt.

Lucas Vs. Snake: 30:70

I won't give anything definite for Ness, I'd rather let Yink do that.
Click to expand...
rPSI your right, but we gotta deal w/ the Falco thing.....at least everyone's gotta convince me (since I don't belive it's even).
If Ally says it's even I'll believe it in a second. But otherwise.......I think you guys know. :)
 
Yumewomiteru

Yumewomiteru

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DEHF says it's even so it's even, or do I need to pull out a couple of old vids from Activegamers?
 
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