Match up disagreements: Wolf!

[smashkng]

Falco is annoying. He can hit us even if we air dodge his aerials. Juggling is pretty easy for him, so avoid the air more than against most characters. And the chain spike is deadly in Japes, so I would ban Japes. But Illusion is no big deal, he's very light and while Falco doesn't has as much trouble landing kill moves as against Wario, it's hard for him, and laser to usmash doesn't kill until 160-170% fresh if you DI properly. We can duck under his projectiles. His fsmash is slow and doesn't kill until 150% (I think) uncharged if you DI properly.

 

[Berserker.]

We can airdodge fastfall his air attacks but he can fastfall n-air though :/ but lasers are really no big deal thanks to ducking though Falco can ledge hop laser to hit us but they can't spam that. Falco can CG us pretty well but we can eascape it by dropping a nade unless the CG is near-frame perfect.

50:50, possibly 55:45 Snake. The only problem is air games and CGs

 

[smashkng]

I think the only way for Falco to get a grab for the CG is we approaching him, so it's best to not approach at all until 45%.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnDOuhUSx1c

Though Ally lost, because of Falco's trouble killing it's 55/45 IMO. If he wasn't as light and was better at killing it would be 50/50.

 

[Berserker.]

We should stay defensive then. Since Falco will spam lasers, it will distract Snake from pulling out a nade though PSing helps this. We shouldn't be staying near Falco if we maintain this.

 

[Underload]

Why did you make a new thread instead of contributing to the matchup discussion thread?

 

[swordsaint]

55-45 Falco.

Saying we don't kill til about 160-170 is the same a lot of matchups anyway, so it's really not a worthwhile point.

Our camp games better and destroys yours. Sniping nades, etc.

We're not going to be using phantasm in situations where we'll get punish for it. It's an outdated tactic to spam it, in case you didn't hear. =P

Basically with the above in mind, and our superior speed in attacks. We WILL right from the beginning, outspace you, get a % lead and using our speed either CG if you haven't got a nade nearby or throw you in the air. You'll take a ****load of damage from us once you're in the air. And we have a plethora of moves which easily do that for us.

We'll be forcing you offstage a lot anyway. So talking about upsmashes and stuff is a little out of the picture. Expect to be getting spiked, stage-spiked, c4 footstooled or back aired if you're recovering away. In either case, if we can't kill with that bair and you can't recover close to the stage, you'll be doing roughly between 15-45 damage yourself trying to recover safely. And even then, you're still in a super bad position.

Here's the thing about reflecting your nades as well, it won't hit us even if it explodes on our reflector if we use it at max range. So as long as we play it safe with the reflector, it's more useful than you give credit for.

We have moves safe on shield as well, Snake really doesn't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assure you, I will tell you someway Falco can punish it.

Falco's usual problem in a lot of Matchups are his recovery and getting gimped. Snake really can't gimp and the best offstage phantasm punisher is bair? And we can easily delay whatever method of recovery we choose for such a lagfilled attack.

 

[Nic64]

Snake shouldn't really have to C4 himself to recover in this matchup, it's pretty easy to avoid the spike at the end of the chain grab and otherwise he usually gets a good trajectory. Also I agree that Falco has the edge early on, but, if he loses his lead, he also loses his camping game as Snake can just duck and wait. IMO this is around even.

 

[napZzz]

really really even? maybe falcos favor...slightly. Stage dependent. This matchup is stupid

 

[smashkng]

55-45 Falco.

Saying we don't kill til about 160-170 is the same a lot of matchups anyway, so it's really not a worthwhile point.

Our camp games better and destroys yours. Sniping nades, etc.

We're not going to be using phantasm in situations where we'll get punish for it. It's an outdated tactic to spam it, in case you didn't hear. =P

Basically with the above in mind, and our superior speed in attacks. We WILL right from the beginning, outspace you, get a % lead and using our speed either CG if you haven't got a nade nearby or throw you in the air. You'll take a ****load of damage from us once you're in the air. And we have a plethora of moves which easily do that for us.

We'll be forcing you offstage a lot anyway. So talking about upsmashes and stuff is a little out of the picture. Expect to be getting spiked, stage-spiked, c4 footstooled or back aired if you're recovering away. In either case, if we can't kill with that bair and you can't recover close to the stage, you'll be doing roughly between 15-45 damage yourself trying to recover safely. And even then, you're still in a super bad position.

Here's the thing about reflecting your nades as well, it won't hit us even if it explodes on our reflector if we use it at max range. So as long as we play it safe with the reflector, it's more useful than you give credit for.

We have moves safe on shield as well, Snake really doesn't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assure you, I will tell you someway Falco can punish it.

Falco's usual problem in a lot of Matchups are his recovery and getting gimped. Snake really can't gimp and the best offstage phantasm punisher is bair? And we can easily delay whatever method of recovery we choose for such a lagfilled attack.

You underrate Snake's edge guarding. He can punish the landing of Illusion and hit through Illusion with many of his moves, and send Falco back offstage. Snake can't go offstage to hit unless he is 100% sure to hit due to his laggy aerials, but it doesn't mean he can't edge guard. And if you go to the ledge Snake may edge hog.

 

[swordsaint]

Don't you get it?

Falco has enough speed and a big enough jump (His best recover move all things considered) to go for the ledge if it's safe or go to the ground if it's safe.

Falco has to recover smart because if we didn't we'd be losing every matchup. Falco's recovery has enough tools to dismantle Snake's edgeguarding...

@Nic64: The spike is guaranteed if we get the chain grab. What's not guaranteed is getting the chain grab, especially if you have nades lying around. It won't kill, but if you recover straight up, you're gonna get spiked, edgeguarded or edgehogged. You will HAVE to use your c4, unless you want to die. Believe me.
If you tech it on stage, we can tech chase you, another strongsuit of Falco's and we can easily pop you back up in the air from it. If you tech jump, prepare for another aerial assault.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Falco's main problem in matchups is his killing, not his recovery. Snake only makes this worse.

 

[swordsaint]

In most matchups it's getting the kill move, not the kill potential.

this match up reverses it. It's easier to land kill moves but the he lives longer.

Really doesnt change much.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

err wut? easy to land killing moves on a snake that knows the mu?

 

[swordsaint]

Grabs.

You just keep them off stage and go for that lovely bair. Not that hard. Mix it up with up airs as well and snakes not AS hard as most people think to kill.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Its true that grab and throw offstage is the best method to kill, but a Snake with a good DI and landing methods can live pretty long, plus that bair/uair will be telegraphed, so I can see a smart Snake living pretty long is he Yomi well.

 

[swordsaint]

But we won't just be throwing it out there randomly. We'll be mixing it up with baits, sometimes just throwing it out there. Before kill %'s however, we'll be learning their recovery methods and patterns to make this even easier.

 

[DMG]

1. Snake player can learn the Falco player's Recovery patterns, and Falco player can learn the Snake player's recovery patterns. This should be a non aspect of the matchup. What's more important is understanding the tools each character has, and what they can accomplish with said tools.

2. Snake has more options/control over his recovery than Falco does.

3. There is a gross disproportion of when Falco can realistically kill Snake compared to when Snake can realistically kill Falco.

4. Falco only outcamps Snake when he has the lead, and only barely. When Snake has the lead, you are going to be approaching him.

5. Falco cannot reliably outspace Snake on the ground. He can do this somewhat in the air however.

6. Snake can blow himself up near the beginning to avoid the CG. Past 35-40% you won't be able to CG him as your Dthrow will not have staled to allow you to normally CG at those %'s.

7. 55:45 Snake, or 50:50. It's not Falco's favor.

 

[Nic64]

@Nic64: The spike is guaranteed if we get the chain grab.

Falco's dair is guaranteed, it actually sending Snake anywhere off stage is not.

 

[-Ran]

Falco doesn't have to kill Snake to win. He is quick enough to circle camp Snake on certain levels and with an early lead of either a stock from a Spike off of CG, or 75% damage from C-grab to Dacas and a bit of lasers, well.... Sure he may not kill Snake easily, but he mounts damage incredibly quick. More so, between Phantasm, his incredible Spot dodge [only 3 frames where he can be hit], his fast fall speed with an average air dodge, he can be rather annoying to catch.

Once Falco realizes that he has the lead, he can rely on his defensive options to easily punish Snake. Good Falcos will almost universally utilize Jab [Frame 2]/Shield to grab once they have a lead with the rare F-Tilt [Frame 6]. They'll then throw the opponent off the edge, to respace, or attempt to mount a kill with a bair/dair, or the rare Uair. With his horizontal control of the level through his Laser Game, it reduces the efficiency of Snake's projectile game significantly.

The match dynamics change drastically pending on who has the first stock taken from them. If Snake is attempting to advance with his nade game, it typically is shut down, but if he's attempting to be defensive against Falco with them, it keeps it's traditional effectiveness. While, as mentioned before, Falco has a tremendous ability to control horizontal space, operate out of shield, and generally avoid being in an area where he'll take damage. But, if Falco is approaching it is relatively clear what he's going for at all times [jab and throw set ups.]

This match up snowballs quickly, for either side. Falco has a massive early game edge, and if he plays it as if the first stock is the match is the last one it can make it incredibly hard for Snake to catch up. Though Snake is 'hard' to kill, Falco is going to be dishing out either a Vertical Kill move, or he's going to be edge guarding you with either a dair [small area of edge, easy to avoid], or read your air dodge [or lack of] with a bair/uair which will kill in the early hundreds.

So with all of that said, both characters are actually relatively similar in their style of play. Both are punishment oriented characters. If Snake wants to win, he needs to avoid the easiest punishment in the game... A grab.

 

[Berserker.]

So your saying it's even or someone's favor?

 

[DMG]

I'm saying it's Snake's favor or even cause my name is DMG, and I am a member of the USA government.

 

[Berserker.]

Yeah but we're still forgetting about Snake ducking under lasers. How is that solved asides from using ledge hop blasters?

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Yeah but we're still forgetting about Snake ducking under lasers. How is that solved asides from using ledge hop blasters?

Spaced phantasms

 

[-Ran]

I'm saying, if you cannot avoid the first grab, don't play this match up.

 

[DMG]

Phantasm sounds OK, but Snake can shield/attack from crouch as well. Dtilt/Jab won't be fun for Falco

 

[Berserker.]

Spaced phantasm?

I don't see a way on how to avoid getting grabbed though. We can't camp Falco at the same time we can't approach Falco. What should Snake do then?

 

[DMG]

Snake should clasp his hands closely.



And pray.

 

[-Ran]

If you cannot avoid a grab that is going to net 70% or so damage, don't play the match up. If you can avoid it, you have a consistent bait to exploit against the Falco player. You have to know his grab range better than him as well as his set ups. You have to make every failed grab by him 20% or more damage.

 

[Berserker.]

I see but can I see a picture of the hitbox of Falco's grab and pivot grab?

 

[Underload]

Or blow himself up and then camp twice as hard.

 

[Berserker.]

So the MU is all about not getting grabbed and not getting camped?

I still see this MU on Snake's favor though.

 

[Attila_]

even imo. falco can outcamp snake, but its difficult, and snake's camping hurts a lot. falco dies much earlier. easy enough to avoid getting grabbed for 45%. that being said, i do hate this mu. fairly ********.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

you can hit falcos spotdodge on 3 frames, ran x.X

 

[-Ran]

2-20 / 22 Falco

My bad, there's actually 3 frames he's vulnerable on. One start up, and two ending. Most characters have one start up, and five ending frames. Unfortunately, Snake doesn't really have a great spot dodge punishing move, aside from getting a grab.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Machinegunning a jab?

 

[Berserker.]

What's machine gunning? Holding the A button?

 

[-Ran]

Machinegunning a jab?

There's too many frame holes in the jab to effectively punish a spot dodge that is invincible for 86% of the time. The window of punishment for the spot dodge is that of Snake's jab's start up. With no lingering hitboxes, Snake is hard pressed to actually punish the spot dodge.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRWXJLAvTNw

Falco metagame!

 

[Berserker.]

That was a wi-fi Snake. What about a true Snake?

 

[-Ran]

Mojoe is power ranked 6th in Socal.