Match up disagreements: Wolf!

[Berserker.]

So I was suppose to put this in the MU of Abit Rusty's but it will become disorganized so I decided to put a thread about it instead.

The purpose:

I've been seeing MUs of Snake different from ours such as theses boards:
Thinks it's 55:45 Pit
Thinks it's 60:40 Wario
Thinks it's 55:45 ROB

They have different MUs and so do we so it's the time to finalize the REAL match up ratio by discussing each of these characters VS Snake!

Meta Knight 55-45 MK (hopefully 50:50 not too long from now!)
Snake - 55:45 Port 4 (I'm still serious)
Wario - 55:45 Snake
Falco - 55:45 Snake...... no idea why I trolled/argued it was 60:40... seriously..
Diddy Kong - 55:45 Snake (leaning towards 60:40)
King Dedede - 50:50
Marth - 55:45 Marth (I swapped from 55:45 snake)
Mr. Game & Watch - 60:40 (UTD/Valdens experience. UTD is an exception to G&W's. lawl)
Pikachu - 60:40 Snake (That CG sucks and is overrated. Just blow yourself up, he has nothing on you..unless he planks. lawl)
Olimar - 55:45 Olimar (maybe 50:50)
Ice Climbers - 60:40 Snake
R.O.B. - 60:40 Snake
Kirby - 65:35 Snake (I don't care what others say)
Lucario - 60:40 (maybe 55:45... still debating)
Zero Suit Samus - 50:50
Toon Link - 60:40 Snake
Pit - 55:45 Snake
Donkey Kong - 55:45 Snake
Peach - 60:40 Snake
Luigi - 60:40 Snake
Fox - 60:40 Snake (got more experience)
Wolf - 60:40 Snake
Sonic - 60:40 Snake (got more experience)
Sheik - 60:40 Snake :/ (<3 my secondary)
Bowser - 65:35 Snake
Zelda - 70:30 Snake
Squirtle - 60:40 Snake
Ivysaur - 60:40 Snake
Charizard - 65:35 Snake
Ike - 60:40 Snake
Lucas - 65:35 Snake
Mario - 70:30 Snake
Ness - 55:45 Snake ~~~ Don't know it that well. FOW wrecked me -_- I'm biased
Yoshi - 60:40 Snake
Samus - 60:40 Snake
Jigglypuff - 80:20 Snake
Captain Falcon - 75:25 Snake
Link - 65:35 Snake
Ganondorf - 80:20 Snake

Purple- It's wrong:
Ness should be..... 60:40 Snake)
______
Chart so far:
Meta Knight 55-45 MK
Snake - 55:45 Port 4?
Wario - 55:45 Snake
Falco - 50:50
Diddy Kong - 55:45 Snake
King Dedede - 50:50
Marth - 55:45 Marth
Mr. Game & Watch - 60:40
Pikachu - 50:50
Olimar - 55:45 Olimar
Ice Climbers - 55:45 Snake
R.O.B. - 55:45 Snake
Kirby - 65:35 Snake
Lucario - 60:40
Zero Suit Samus - 55:45 Snake
Toon Link - 60:40 Snake
Pit - 50:50
Donkey Kong - 55:45 Snake
Peach - 60:40 Snake
Luigi - 60:40 Snake
Fox - 60:40 Snake
Wolf - 60:40 Snake
Sonic - 60:40 Snake
Sheik - 60:40 Snake
Bowser - 65:35 Snake
Zelda - 60:40 Snake
Squirtle - 60:40 Snake
Ivysaur - 60:40 Snake
Charizard - 65:35 Snake
Ike - 60:40 Snake
Lucas - 65:35 Snake
Mario - 70:30 Snake
Ness - 60:40 Snake
Yoshi - 60:40 Snake
Samus - 60:40 Snake
Jigglypuff - 80:20 Snake
Captain Falcon - 75:25 Snake
Link - 60:40 Snake
Ganondorf - 80:20 Snake
________________________________________
Color legend:
If the MU is correct
If the MU was verified already
If the MU wasn't verified

 

[Nic64]

I think Snake goes

55:45 vs Pit
45:55 vs Wario
60:40 vs ROB

IMO

And essentially this thread won't tell you anything new, this is just more Snake discussion.

 

[Berserker.]

That's the point -_-

It's to finalize the MU.

And let's discuss Pit

I really think Pit VS Snake is 55:45 Snake or 50:50

We're not going to camp on first in this match up obviously and we go for approach which Snake is good at. Arrows are a pain to deal with but it's not impossible to counter. You can powershield or shield it and plus Pits would do this move. So our projectiles our limited big deal but Snake can rush down Pit. The match up is like Link and Fox, focus on approach since they can limit our camping. Mortar, C4s and proximity mines will be the projectiles that Pit will be having a pain with. B-reversals with mines and mind games with mines will do VERY well on Pit. Mortar, Pit can't really do anything against it except air dodge which can be punished. DACUS could be useful then approaching and mindgames are best here.

 

[Nic64]

The matchup thread SuSa made wasn't that long ago, that's what I was saying, I don't think anyone here has dramatically changed their minds.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wario 5/5
Pit 6/4
ROB 6/4

 

[6Mizu]

Wario 5/5 even
Pit 55/45 pit's fav.
Rob 55/45 Snake's fav

And Link vs. Snake is 55/45
I'll discuss more later........ i'm posting from School. -.-

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I agree with Snake v Link being 6/4 or better. I've played both Deva and Legan, so I have enough experience to know that this is easily in Snake's favor.

- Wario is even.
- Pit is in Snake's advantage (~6/4) for now. Pit's metagame is heavily underdeveloped, and he is also incredibly underrepresented in the competitive scene. Until there is a prodigy among Pit players (in America at least), this will stay in Snake's advantage.
- ROB is even.
- SNAKE DITTOS ARE F$*#ING EVEN. Stop pretending like port 4 matters. If you think port 4 really makes a difference, THEN YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

 

[Nic64]

Snake vs Link is definitely 60:40 or better, it's not a very close matchup at all. If you see a good Snake going near even with a Link, it's usually because the Link just knows the matchup much better, which is going to happen when you play an obscure and underrepresented character, that's a player perk, it doesn't actually make Link any better than the horrible character that he is.

 

[Prawn]

koolaid pit is 50/50 with snake

pit in general is prolly 60/40

and lulz ill leave the snake boards nao

 

[~ Gheb ~]

wtf Snake Link is like 7/3 Snake's favour.

 

[Black_Heretic]

The Pit matchup thread that says 55-45 Pit is from October 08, nobody honestly thinks its Pit's advantage anymore

 

[ErikG]

Match ups are generally hard to finalize because when each board discusses their own match ups, they have a lot of character bias.

 

[napZzz]

I disagree with alot of matchups and would like to discuss them

I feel like snake vs. ic's is like 55/45 for instance. But if I say that around an ic main or ******** snake main they shoot me inthe face before I can even explain myself

I feel like pit vs. snake is as even as you can get tbh....

 

[6Mizu]

Wario 5/5 even
Pit 55/45 pit's fav.
Rob 55/45 Snake's fav

And Link vs. Snake is 55/45
I'll discuss more later........ i'm posting from School. -.-

kay, so about discussing more.....lets see here.
Wario and Snake: Wario ***** air.....Snake ***** ground. I think everyone knows where I'm going w/ this.

Pit and Snake: Snake is forced to appraoch. and all of our appraoches are obvious ans easily beaten off by Pit. I think that enough said for that.
So Snake v Pit
55/45 (pit's fav)

ROB and Snake: Please, don't even argue with.......... 55:45 (snake's fav).
Of all people me and Sudia are the last people you wanna argue this about.
But, if anyone insists and decide to argue.....I will solve it.

The Pit matchup thread that says 55-45 Pit is from October 08, nobody honestly thinks its Pit's advantage anymore

I think it's what I said above. I play a Pit pretty much every weekend. It's annoying. -.-

 

[napZzz]

the only place pit falters is killing snake. He controls most other aspects, but its just so even otherwise

 

[6Mizu]

......mmmmmm....no
Not really even. I mean It's hard to get damage on Pit.

 

[Nic64]

I don't think Pit beats Snake but maybe there's some personal bias there because I just do well against his camping with Snake, I find it easier to approach him as Snake than I do as MK somehow...I don't really see the evidence for Pit winning as of now in any case, even at best IMO

And Nappy is right, IC's are not a **** matchup at all. People used to think this because it was like "pull a grenade and they can't CG you", that hasn't been true for a long time.

While we're critiquing the extremity of some of our advantages I think Diddy is closer to even than 60:40 too. It's listed 55:45 but I don't like the (maybe 60:40) addition

...

I think Mr Game and Watch, Wario, Fox, Sheik, Bowser, and Squirtle are all 5 points closer to even than listed. Just throwing those out there.</starting massive theory ****fest out of boredom>

 

[Turbo Ether]

I agree with Snake having a solid advantage on Link. No possible way that Link does better than 4/6.

Snake vs Wario I feel is pretty even. No need to call 55/45 in either characters advantage. Most people would find 5/5 acceptable.

Snake vs Pit, I cannot accurately judge. I do know that Pit shield stabs Snake extremely easily with multiple moves and it's very annoying.

 

[napZzz]

......mmmmmm....no
Not really even. I mean It's hard to get damage on Pit.

I feel like, whoever gets the first kill in this matchup wins the match. I really do. Thats how I Feel it is because if snake can get the first kill pit has to approach, and snake can start camping him and take complete control, but it also works reverse. I dunno.

I don't think Pit beats Snake but maybe there's some personal bias there because I just do well against his camping with Snake, I find it easier to approach him as Snake than I do as MK somehow...I don't really see the evidence for Pit winning as of now in any case, even at best IMO

And Nappy is right, IC's are not a **** matchup at all. People used to think this because it was like "pull a grenade and they can't CG you", that hasn't been true for a long time.

While we're critiquing the extremity of some of our advantages I think Diddy is closer to even than 60:40 too. It's listed 55:45 but I don't like the (maybe 60:40) addition

...

I think Mr Game and Watch, Wario, Fox, Sheik, Bowser, and Squirtle are all 5 points closer to even than listed. Just throwing those out there.</starting massive theory ****fest out of boredom>

Ask any ic main and they'll shoot you in the face and say its like 8/2 though. lol. Same with diddy.

I agree with Snake having a solid advantage on Link. No possible way that Link does better than 4/6.

Snake vs Wario I feel is pretty even. No need to call 55/45 in either characters advantage. Most people would find 5/5 acceptable.

Snake vs Pit, I cannot accurately judge. I do know that Pit shield stabs Snake extremely easily with multiple moves and it's very annoying.

snake vs. wario is even, maybe slightly snakes favor I guess? I dunno I'm just saying what hunger told me when I talked to him on aim earlier today. Its 6/4 when he does the matchup though apparently.

 

[Cold Fusion]

Ask any ic main and they'll shoot you in the face and say its like 8/2 though. lol. Same with diddy.

Not Swordgard.

 

[Berserker.]

DACUS works well, Mortar is one of the projectiles Pit can't do anything against.


About ICs:
Why it's a 70:30 Snake
Easy:
- Nana can eat an f-smash easily
- Snake's range is trouble for ICs
- We can camp ICs easily
- Deshync is horrible here since Snake has projectiles
..There are more good things for Snake

If only Bunny would tell

 

[Nic64]

Mortar isn't that troublesome for Pit, if he's above you he can just fly away, and using it when he's horizontally spacing you isn't effective.

Nana only gets fsmashed if you separate them and if popo can't protect her at all, it's not THAT common. Snake's range is very overrated in general, blizzard wall actually outspaces you it just loses to nades. Camping is good but nades are a laggy attack that will frequently leave you vulnerable. Snake is a predictable character with limited and highly punishable options, and IC's get a stock from successful predictions, there's no ****ing way that it's 7:3.

 

[Berserker.]

Check the MU thread of ICs and realize it. I also though it wasn't but I found out it was

 

[Nic64]

Because character boards matchup ratio's are always accurate, oh wait

**** last time I went there they listed ROB as 3:7, LOL

Matchup ratio's are just opinions, and frankly I don't value the opinions of most IC mains, IC's are a character that very few people play at a competitive level. I'd listen to swordgard over most of them and he doesn't think it's a **** matchup. I'd be interested in what lain or meep think about it but I don't care to go searching for that.

 

[Black_Heretic]

Pit and Snake: Snake is forced to appraoch. and all of our appraoches are obvious ans easily beaten off by Pit. I think that enough said for that.
So Snake v Pit
55/45 (pit's fav)

You're not taking into account Snake's survivability or stupid kill power. Pit kills Snake at 180%, Snake kills Pit at 100% All you're saying is that Snake has to approach and Pit will always stop said approach.

This is why theorycrafting is stupid, it doesn't happen like this.

Snake has a plethora of mixups at his disposal and Pit would have to read the Snake perfectly every time to "easily beat off Snake's approaches." Just because you lose to a Pit doesn't make it Pit's favor, it makes the Pit better than you.

 

[Nic64]

In addition to that Pit's KO attacks are mostly very predictable and don't have very good setups, he's a character where regularly living to 200% isn't unrealistic

 

[Berserker.]

Snake can really 0-death Nana especially if she's separated from Popo. If she gets too far, you can make her eat an F-smash and kill her at a low percent. If the desynch, they made life easier for Snake for a lot of reasons but the one major reason would be projectiles. ICs have short-medium ranged attacks while Snake has long-ranged and powerful attacks. Snake can camp ICs and ICs doesn't have the tools to deal with mines, grenades and stuff. While they CG Snake, we can easily pull out a nade and it's kinda guaranteed to get hit. I'm sure they would use blizzards and our stage control is so superior, they have to watch out for a lot of things. ICs can't really bust through Snake's camping because of Nana who's played by a CPU which is dumb. Snake can kill ICs quickly do that's trouble. F-tilt them, if they try shielding, Nana has a 6 frame difference and if they roll/spot dodge then you can punish them. The worst part of the ICs is that they can't kill Snake well especially if Snake has good DI. They'll be using squall to go away from you and Snake can easily rack up damage while ICs won't really go close to you due to your camping.

And that's why it's a real 70:30 Snake

 

[Nic64]

Right, pull out a grenade while they're chain grabbing you, I see, my problem is that I play IC players that don't suck, I doin it rong

 

[Black_Heretic]

I thought that Snake couldn't pull a nade while being infinited via alternate throws

 

[Berserker.]

Well you now know you can, thanks to bunny

 

[Nic64]

He can't, if he could it would be like 8:2 XD

If a nade comes out, the IC's messed up. That's on the player, has nothing to do with the matchup.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

yeah bunny's kinda bad at this game, best thing to do while grabbed is not to mash b, instead just mash like everything so you can get out the quickest, also screaming profanities in their ear/make a huge distracting ruckus works too if you want to play like that.

 

[Black_Heretic]

yeah bunny's kinda bad at this game, best thing to do while grabbed is not to mash b, instead just mash like everything so you can get out the quickest, also screaming profanities in their ear/make a huge distracting ruckus works too if you want to play like that.

So I wasn't randomly mistaken. Short of kicking the IC player, there isn't a real way to escape the cg

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Well if you set yourself on fire and start kicking, screaming, and rolling on the floor im sure eventurally that will distract the ICs player.

 

[Black_Heretic]

Couldn't I just set them on fire? Seems much easier

 

[Yumewomiteru]

no i think if you do that then they can call the TO over and make you get grabbed again.

 

[Berserker.]

Who really cares. If they try wobbling you, we can STILL pull out a nade actually. All I know is it's 7:3 nuff said let's talk Pit :x

 

[Yumewomiteru]

lol wobbling that aint melee

 

[Berserker.]

Blame Sakurai again (That idiot)

 

[Yumewomiteru]

i hope you realize wobbling is a melee term for continuously ftilt and dtilt at the right time so your opponent cant get out of the grab.

I think your thinking of hobbling, which is throw to footstool to shenanigance.