Match up disagreements: Wolf!

[Attila_]

i too now see why it could potential be even (although am not yet convinced that is actually is). please try and get some vids recorded, swordgard, it would be very appreciated. last time i watched any ics verse ally it ended in fair ****. quite possibly cause the ics were doing it wrong.

that being said, ive lost to ics before as snake. bf is worse, simply because of uair chains. bf is ics best neutral against almost all characters; snake is probably one of them.

i did find it relatively easy to win on sv, however, cause platform camping there is amazing when done right. generally this is what i abuse when im not sure of a mu or am clearly going to/already losing the match.

i was surprised how ineffective ftilt was... i think boost pivots and stuff would be more useful next time.

 

[Berserker.]

I thought Snake can easily separate ICs easily
Can't we camp ICs and force them to do their limited approach?

I'm also not convinced that it's even. Perhaps a video will tell me why :/

 

[Teh Future]

mmmm pretty sure swordgard beat a sandbagging ally in GFs, then got 3-0'd....

 

[napZzz]

mmmm pretty sure swordgard beat a sandbagging ally in GFs, then got 3-0'd....

or maybe ally just adapted? you dont sandbag in a tournament usually, and if it was GF's he would've lost I'm sure you meant WF's

 

[Teh Future]

Ya most people dont sandbag in tournies cause their bad. Ally on the other hand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhc9SUsBSJk&feature=related

Maybe Im wrong, and even if I am right SG is much better vs snake than I am. I was just saying because people are acting like he is god vs snake or something lol when meep is prob. just as good if not better he plays with candy all the time

 

[swordgard]

Ya most people dont sandbag in tournies cause their bad. Ally on the other hand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhc9SUsBSJk&feature=related

Maybe Im wrong, and even if I am right SG is much better vs snake than I am. I was just saying because people are acting like he is god vs snake or something lol when meep is prob. just as good if not better he plays with candy all the time

Actually he didnt 6-0 me. First set was 2-1, i told him before the tourney that he shouldnt sandbag or he might get wrecked. He said hed play just like lain/meep, so i was like ok. Second set he 3-0ed me bad. 3rd set was 1st game he ***** me. 2nd game i adapted halfway and brought him to 200% last stock, nana SDed, and I didnt manage to kill him. 3rd match i 2 stocked him 50 % left. 4th match was RC, i was winning until the end of last stock where he ftilted nana when she was ultra close to the death boundaries. I then tried some risky stuff to get him but failed as I sded lol. Oh well, theres always next time. He told me it was the first time he had to camp to beat an ics player, and that I was the hardest ics he fought. He might have been sandbagging, dunnow. Point is, im the only ics who took a set off him with ics and i hope to repeat that next tourney.

EDIT: BTW just saying Meep didnt take a single match off ally btw. And meep also believes its even/almost even.

 

[RATED]

mmmm pretty sure swordgard beat a sandbagging ally in GFs, then got 3-0'd....

lol dude ur talk sounds like u were someone important, but u are not. LOL no one sandbaggs in a GFs... maybe just the other set ally adapted to the Matchup.

 

[swordgard]

lol dude ur talk sounds like u were someone important, but u are not. LOL no one sandbaggs in a GFs... maybe just the other set ally adapted to the Matchup.

No actually he has every right to question my victory over ally. I will try to repeat what i did at next tourney, but he does bring up a valid point. Ally did win in the end. I also encourage everyone to actually try and find new stuff by themselves about the matchups and not to rely solely on pros.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

So basically you want everyone to reinvent the wheel? Nah, this is not a game where there's many ways to play it. Theres few ways and im sure learning from pros is the best way to go.

 

[Prawn]

So basically you want everyone to reinvent the wheel? Nah, this is not a game where there's many ways to play it. Theres few ways and im sure learning from pros is the best way to go.

with this attitude melee jiggs would still just be high-ish tier LOL

on topic: After learning this matchup the best I could over the past week or two I played bizkit in tourny and fatal in a mm, I was 0-2d both times but 1 game each I had them at 1 stock like 120 damage. They both play the matchup incredibly different.

Bizkit chooses the "make the stage explode everywhere" approach while fatal just relies on really good spacing and capitalizes on when ICs get seperated.

I think its 55-45 snake. In my games vs bizkit I don't think I CG'd him once, ICs have the tools to keep snake in the air/rack up damage without the CG, and if you do manage to get a grab then its a stock.

55-45

 

[Bizkit047]

Prawnnnnnnn you didn't get me down to 1 stock both fights. You did that to Fatal. I 2 stocked you on FD xd.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Bizkit name searches like a mutha ****a

 

[Bizkit047]

Does that mean you namesearch me too? xd

 

[Yumewomiteru]

No I'm actually active on this board =P

 

[So Fatal]

I namesearch heeeeeeeeeehehe

 

[Yumewomiteru]

I namesearch heeeeeeeeeehehe

And didn't contribute to the discussion <.<

Fatal Fatal Fatal Fatal Fatal Fatal Fatal Fatal Fatal

What do you think of the Snake vs. ICs matchup? =D

 

[Prawn]

noo bizkit i meant I got you both to 1 stock high damage in 1 game of each set

 

[Berserker.]

I'm starting to think it's a 55:45 Snake... AGAIN lulz

I'm not sure about the MU though...... Snake has long-range attacks compared to ICs at the same time Snake's attacks are powerful. He can separate ICs but you guys are right about Snake being grabbed. Hard to decide which is the true MU..

What do you guys think? What's the real MU?

Actually..... ICs have slow attacks (somewhat).

Up tilt's cooldown frames are pretty long (Starts from frame 24 and ends at frame 48) and we can DI up tilt (??) then punish it.

Our F-tilt 1st hit lasts shorter than IC's u-tilt and F-tilt but IC's d-tilt lasts shorter than F-tilt 1 though but who cares! F-tilt one's hitbox comes out at frame 4 while IC's D-tilt starts out at frame 8.

Here's the frame data I found in IC's boards:

Dash Attack
A fairly standard running attack. They rush at the opponent and...headbutt them?
Damage: 10%
Range: Fairly large considering it's Ice Climbers.
Startup: 1-10
Hitbox: 11-12
Cooldown: 13-41


Neutral Air

Nana and Popo spin around with their hammers, attacking all around them.
Damage: -
Range: Small
Startup: 1-5
Hitbox: 6-23
Cooldown: 24-45
Landing lag: 15


Up Air (<3)

They thrust their hammers into the air.
Damage: 12-17%
Range: Large overhead
Startup: 1-5
Hitbox: 6-23 (6-9 strong hit)
Cooldown: 24-29
Landing lag: 30



Down Air

A stall and fall move where the Ice Climbers drop down quickly with their hammers.
Damage: 13%
Range: Crap
Startup: 1-8
Hitbox: 9-51
Cooldown: 52-63
Landing lag: 42

Forward Air

The Ice Climbers arc their hammers and slam them down in midair.
Damage:19-24%
Range Medium
Startup: 1-18
Hitbox: 19-20
Cooldown: 21-56
Landing lag: 20


Back Air

The Ice Climbers swing their hammers behind them.
Damage: 19%
Range: Large
Startup: 1-7
Hitbox: 8-11
Cooldown: 12-35
Landing lag: 15



Forward Smash

They swing their hammers straight down over their heads.
Damage: 20-28%
Range: Medium
Startup: 1-11
Hitbox: 12-13
Cooldown: 14-47



Down Smash

The Ice Climbers sweep their hammers all around their feet.
Damage: 20-53%
Range: Medium
Startup: 1-8
Hitbox: 9-11 (back), 14-17 (front)
Cooldown: 18-44 ]



UpSmash

The Ice Climbers swing their hammers overhead.
Damage: 20-28%
Range: Medium above them
Startup: 1-12
Hitbox: 13-18
Cooldown: 19-49

Any ideas about it? Is it punishable or something?

 

[swordgard]

I'm starting to think it's a 55:45 Snake... AGAIN lulz

I'm not sure about the MU though...... Snake has long-range attacks compared to ICs at the same time Snake's attacks are powerful. He can separate ICs but you guys are right about Snake being grabbed. Hard to decide which is the true MU..

What do you guys think? What's the real MU?

Actually..... ICs have slow attacks (somewhat).

Up tilt's cooldown frames are pretty long (Starts from frame 24 and ends at frame 48) and we can DI up tilt (??) then punish it.

Our F-tilt 1st hit lasts shorter than IC's u-tilt and F-tilt but IC's d-tilt lasts shorter than F-tilt 1 though but who cares! F-tilt one's hitbox comes out at frame 4 while IC's D-tilt starts out at frame 8.

Here's the frame data I found in IC's boards:



Any ideas about it? Is it punishable or something?

None of this is going to matter once i grab you ^.^

 

[OverLade]

None of this is going to matter once i grab you ^.^

This.
It's almost impossible to have a matchup better than 55-45 against a character that (at the highest level) will grab you once and take a stock. Snake can use Grenades to defend himself but at in general he'll likely trade hits with ICs. Keep in mind that using Ally vs IC's isn't even a legit comparison because Ally is better than every ICs player. If an ICs player doesn't mess up CGs and the snake player knows how to camp then the matchup should no doubt be 50-50. The question is how easy is it to not get grabbed, and how much damage will ICs do every if they can't CG you.

 

[Attila_]

This.
It's almost impossible to have a matchup better than 55-45 against a character that (at the highest level) will grab you once and take a stock.

i disagree. a number of characters have very good methods of not getting grabbed. mk is a perfect example here. he only gets grabbed if he makes a rather massive mistake. not a 55:45 mu at all... 60:40 mk at best for ics.

but snake doesnt really have such an easy time avoiding grabs as mk does... but he arguable can kill nana easier. correct me if im wrong, but in a lot of cases, getting nana and popo on opposing sides of the stage will mean certain death for nana, which leaves popo completely screwed.

i suppose its a matter of not making the big mistake first, but i think snake has an easier time forcing the mistake and taking advantage of it. im sticking by 60:40 snake for now.

 

[OverLade]

i disagree. a number of characters have very good methods of not getting grabbed. mk is a perfect example here. he only gets grabbed if he makes a rather massive mistake. not a 55:45 mu at all... 60:40 mk at best for ics.

but snake doesnt really have such an easy time avoiding grabs as mk does... but he arguable can kill nana easier. correct me if im wrong, but in a lot of cases, getting nana and popo on opposing sides of the stage will mean certain death for nana, which leaves popo completely screwed.

i suppose its a matter of not making the big mistake first, but i think snake has an easier time forcing the mistake and taking advantage of it. im sticking by 60:40 snake for now.

While MK can play to avoid getting grabbed he still takes a lot of damage while Dair camping and IC's have gross Uair game. And even the best MKs still manage to get grabbed. On paper it may be possible but in practical gameplay even the best players will still make enough mistakes for something like this to happen. And even the best players are not guaranteed to always do a perfect gimp on Nana when they get her on the ledge/off the stage. If top IC's players didn't mess up CGs, most of the time top MK's wouldn't beat them.

And while Snake can kill Nana pretty well, you often see IC's players getting seperated because they make mistakes. So you can say "Snake will only get grabbed if he makes a mistake", but a lot of the time the same is few true for ICs. As far as forcing mistakes I think IC's are able to create a significant amount of pressure on Snake, enough to force him to do something that they can punish. Even if it doesnt result in a grab, Snake loses his shield from camping nades and ICs can technically force him to do something besides that. This will result in a mixup and if the IC player guesses right they will get a grab, just in general you don't see that kind of gameplay from ICs players because the game focuses around getting the grab.

If you watch videos of top IC's players vs. Snake you often see IC's players rarely reading sidesteps or rolls, which on paper could result in grabs. Most of the time IC's losing to snake is due to getting outplayed, which is why I think the matchup is definitly even.

 

[Prawn]

RedHalberd is hitting the nail on the head,

theory-craft all you want but I think it's hard to say this matchup is in Snake's favor even slightly when 1 grab = a stock and he doesn't have the benefit of multiple jumps etc etc.

 

[mikeray4]

The matchup has to be 60:40, they have a hard time getting grabs on snake. if you play on fd its IC's adavatage. but play on any other field that has plaforms and all u have to do is jump around on the platform and use the grenades. plus...you CAN GRAB AND BTHROW ONE OF THE CLIMBERS IF THEY GET TO CLOSE. its fast, and is relatively safe. Usmash is also a god in this MU, shoot one up whenever they start to get close and they can't grab u for a stock..they have to sheild, which is when u grab them. throws split ic's up like u wouldnt believe.

Now IC's hop every so often to shoot ice blocks, that is when u snake dash to put pressure on them from beneath, just like what u do to olimar.

 

[Prawn]

Mike I did 100x better against bizkit on BF than FD lol, if you platform camp you eat uairs all day.

 

[napZzz]

theory-craft all you want but I think it's hard to say this matchup is in Snake's favor even slightly when 1 grab = a stock and he doesn't have the benefit of multiple jumps etc etc.

snake cant be flawless forever. He WILL make a mistake eventually and no matter how much you've been ****** the ic's and camping them the game is either gonna get even'd out or you'll be losing. I completely agree with your post.

anyone saying snake is hard to cg is stupid. That bthrow-footstool-ice block-regrab cg is sooo easy on snake. Unless its avoidable somehow? which I doubt

 

[OverLade]

The matchup has to be 60:40, they have a hard time getting grabs on snake. if you play on fd its IC's adavatage. but play on any other field that has plaforms and all u have to do is jump around on the platform and use the grenades. plus...you CAN GRAB AND BTHROW ONE OF THE CLIMBERS IF THEY GET TO CLOSE. its fast, and is relatively safe. Usmash is also a god in this MU, shoot one up whenever they start to get close and they can't grab u for a stock..they have to sheild, which is when u grab them. throws split ic's up like u wouldnt believe.

Now IC's hop every so often to shoot ice blocks, that is when u snake dash to put pressure on them from beneath, just like what u do to olimar.

Your post is filled with theory craft and outlandish statements. Throws split IC's like you wouldn't believe? IC's throws kill snake like you wouldn't believe. And IC's can Sidestep your Grab and grab you. This game is about reads, not theory, that's the problem with this topic. An equally smart IC player can predict your grab and sidestep. And if you don't have a nade on the ground, there goes your stock.

And they ICs can still grab you if you shoot up a mortar, and even throw you before the mortar lands. Read what you wrote in bold. It sounds absolutely ridiculous from an in game standpoint. The game doesn't even work that way. Judging a matchup ratio is based on if the players are equally skilled and know the matchup equally well. There isn't even a single IC player in the nation that never messes up CGs. When you watch top ICs matches just for example, practically every match they get a grab, and quite often they mess up. Otherwise you would understand how ridiculously good a character is who can take a stock with one grab.

On paper arguements are meaningless because EVERYONE gets grabbed, and even the best snake players will often get grabbed without a nade/mortar to save them. And that's before you factor in the reads of the IC player.

 

[etecoon]

And if you don't have a nade on the ground, there goes your stock.

a at least partly cooked nade at that too, getting chain grabbed away from your grenades before they explode is a very depressing feeling

 

[Bizkit047]

RedHalberd is completely correct. Matchup discussions in general are pretty stupid, as on paper everything sounds like it works, when in reality, things don't work out that way. As said, it's more or so reading and baiting than anything else. The only reason I **** you on FD Prawn is because I read you like a book. Snake can just platform camp with shield dropping nades though to stop ICs from Uair spamming him on a platform. I'm just bad at platform camping because I never do it. I tried it for the lulz against Prawn and he got me down to 1 stock cuz of it. So instead I just did a baiting + reading match on FD and did fine.

But to be on topic, I believe it's probably 55-45 Snake. Although it isn't as easy to safely grab Snake with ICs as it is with other characters, it still will most likely lead to a KO if you are grabbed against an IC player that rarely messes up their grabs.

 

[Prawn]

I think it should also be noted that snake is unquestionably one of the hardest to CG.

In tournament, a grab in which nana is in the right place at any percent over 20-30 on, say, Olimar/Metaknight for me is a VERY good chance of a KO, and I'm not as consistent as I could be.

Snake is a much lower chance of going to death. But I know matchups say "top level" or whatever. So yeah.

edit:

anyone saying snake is hard to cg is stupid. That bthrow-footstool-ice block-regrab cg is sooo easy on snake. Unless its avoidable somehow? which I doubt

The bthrow-footstool thing is easy(although I messed it up vs bizkit and got scared to do it again LOL) but its SLIGHTLY situational. For example it doesnt move away from nades, it doesn't work on slanted surfaces(most of the time) platforms can sometimes get in the way of nana. And it takes longer, which makes its SLIGHT chance of a screwup multiply. I prefer doing the harder one in hopes of mastering it because it is much more useful.

But it is easier yea.

 

[lordhelmet]

Lol at 75-25 Falcon

 

[Yumewomiteru]

So even though Snake has the mortal and nades to camp and possibly escape a chaingrab, but since he lack a good way to seperate ICs, it makes the matchup pretty much even, like 55-45 Snake?

 

[RATED]

snake cant be flawless forever. He WILL make a mistake eventually and no matter how much you've been ****** the ic's and camping them the game is either gonna get even'd out or you'll be losing. I completely agree with your post.

anyone saying snake is hard to cg is stupid. That bthrow-footstool-ice block-regrab cg is sooo easy on snake. Unless its avoidable somehow? which I doubt

Platforms says hi. also I have to say it... Redhalberd's post won.

havent anyonee noticed that a lot of snake players spotdodges when they have someone at their back? lol I have seen a lot of vids and played Snakes and most of them do it, I used to do it too, I have seen a lot of good players punish that. so in fact I am not saying that EVERY snake does but a lot of snake does. so a ICs mainer could notice that on that snake and that's like Snake gets ***** by ICs just by a mistake like that.

and yeah I have the same opinion as Biskit , ICs vs Snake IMO are 55-45 snake.

 

[swordgard]

snake cant be flawless forever. He WILL make a mistake eventually and no matter how much you've been ****** the ic's and camping them the game is either gonna get even'd out or you'll be losing. I completely agree with your post.

anyone saying snake is hard to cg is stupid. That bthrow-footstool-ice block-regrab cg is sooo easy on snake. Unless its avoidable somehow? which I doubt

You are so wrong on the second part of your post. Hobbling is completely unviable against anyone who knows how to mash and how to SDI, unviable versus nade setups, unviable on platforms, very time consuming and thus very bad in a lot of situations. It is terribad.


EDIT: Also, just saying the matchup is far from being fully developped, I got a whole new set of shenanigans for when il play ally next time.

 

[mikeray4]

Mike I did 100x better against bizkit on BF than FD lol, if you platform camp you eat uairs all day.

Once you hit a nade. I will be pulling some mikeray bull****....cause you will be hearing "you suck lolololol" alot. so yeah, ic's cant beat snake because snake mains are *******s

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Mikehazing all day son!

 

[napZzz]

You are so wrong on the second part of your post. Hobbling is completely unviable against anyone who knows how to mash and how to SDI, unviable versus nade setups, unviable on platforms, very time consuming and thus very bad in a lot of situations. It is terribad.


EDIT: Also, just saying the matchup is far from being fully developped, I got a whole new set of shenanigans for when il play ally next time.

thanks for correcting me on that. Where I said "which I doubt" was when I was waiting for someone to correct me and confirm if I was correct or not.

I've never understood how you can SDI to escape this cg, can you eplain that to me in a pm if you see this?

 

[Attila_]

im pretty sure you cant sdi out of hobbling. unless youre referring to using SDI to get yourself under a platform so it doesnt work anymore...

besides, most good ics should be able to throw you anyway.

 

[swordgard]

im pretty sure you cant sdi out of hobbling. unless youre referring to using SDI to get yourself under a platform so it doesnt work anymore...

besides, most good ics should be able to throw you anyway.

You can SDI over multiple times out of hobbling, and at any decently high%(70%+) you can get far enough so that they have to run. This makes it even slower as you cant jump until nana is 100% neutral state and adds a chance to trip.

In other words its completely unviable.

Most good ics still cant 0 to death snake. That includes japanese ics.

 

[OverLade]

I had the pleasure of playing with an IC's player today. He's very inexperienced but it was nice having an opportunity to play the matchup again and collect some more Data.

It's been requested that I create a new Matchup thread however. This one is pretty cluttered and I don't know if it's even really being updated. I'd be happy to keep a new one current. Everyone cool with this?