gallax
Smash Hero
i have a ton of IC experience against a very good ic player and would mind contributing. but i do agree that it is 55-45 snake.
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Match up disagreements: Wolf!
- Thread starter Berserker.
- Start date
Please move all discussion to the new matchup thread.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9295133#post9295133
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9295133#post9295133
Berserker.
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Okay anything else to say?
I'm gonna see which should be the next one
Lol sordgard ^_^
We all know that once you get grabbed by ICs....
YOUR FINISHED!
I'm gonna see which should be the next one
Lol sordgard ^_^
We all know that once you get grabbed by ICs....
YOUR FINISHED!
sheik! i was so lost the last (one and only) time i played one.
or pikachu. i think its in his favour...
or pikachu. i think its in his favour...
Berserker.
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Okay so what do you guys think should be next?
6Mizu
Smash Champion
ummm.....wario or diddy?
Yumewomiteru
Smash Master
umm.... Snake.
Berserker.
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Snake it is!
Discuss!
Discuss!
how is snake a mu disagreement? this doesnt make any sense. discuss the mu sure, but i can hardly see how it anything but ever so slightly in p4's favor.
next please.
next please.
Berserker.
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Okay fine...
CHANGING....
Okay, Shiek is good?
CHANGING....
Okay, Shiek is good?
i dont mind, just dont think that the snake mu is pretty well developed already and there really isnt anything to disagree about...
Berserker.
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I'm going for Shiek.
I'm starting it up tomorrow.
I'm starting it up tomorrow.
$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$
Smash Lord
Snake ***** Snake, there ya go 100/0, easy and simple 
Berserker.
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Lulz we were gonna discuss Shiek.
But well I change my mind, to SHIEK!
But well I change my mind, to SHIEK!
.decoy
Smash Ace
what about this?
before we go to some char like sheik...
Fighting a good Sheik is really irritating. I think it's somewhere between 60/40 and 55/44. Sheik shouldn't kill you until 180% on most stocks, but can easily rack up a lot of damage with the right reads. I'll post more later.
6Mizu
Smash Champion
Well she can juggle the crap outta us........and all of this other stuff blah blah blah etc. But she dies early. I say 60/40.
saying its 60:40 is well and good, but it doesnt particularly help us win. does anyone here actually have a decent amount of experience with a good sheik? or even better, videos they could link us to?
instead of saying she can juggle us or whatever, we should be saying what to do once she is juggling us. for instance, when grabbed, what throw is she most likely to use? where should we di?
and in general, how effective is camping? how should we recover? what is going to do to kill us? how do we stop her approaches? etc etc
this is how most of our successful discussions run. i think its an effective system, if we can get it to work.
so does anyone have good experience here?
instead of saying she can juggle us or whatever, we should be saying what to do once she is juggling us. for instance, when grabbed, what throw is she most likely to use? where should we di?
and in general, how effective is camping? how should we recover? what is going to do to kill us? how do we stop her approaches? etc etc
this is how most of our successful discussions run. i think its an effective system, if we can get it to work.
so does anyone have good experience here?
Underload
Lazy
I don't like putting ratios on things. So I'll try to make sense of Sheik without doing so.
Sheik's extremely peculiar. Relatively tall, but extremely swift and hard to get clean grabs off on. An unorthodox projectile that comes out quickly and does a number on any grenade / mine you have out. An extremely good ftilt for simple setups (ftilt -> fair, ftilt -> nair, ftilt -> utilt, etc.). Average range, with below average killing capacity due to said range.
Although I don't think Sheik should give Snake issues, the reality is she does. Especially with the needles. There's a few things Snake need to learn.
+ Much like the ditto, stay far away from grenades. They usually hurt you more than they help you, unless you REALLY know what you're doing. You're better off being nadeless and avoiding easy needle hits.
+ Learn Sheik's range at low percents. You can bet your backside she's going to at least attempt to catch you in a ftilt chain. If and when she does, don't just mash B. Calmly and cleanly SDI up. Many Snakes ignore that simple idea, and get caught in silly things like tornado, Kirby's fthrow chaingrab, and certain other multi-hit moves. Once you succeed in doing that, mash B and your jump button together. You'll either triple jump (a footstool's height but with no actual animation) or grenade out of it.
+ Fair's weaker damage and knockback output helps at times. I'm quite sure it'll hit you out of cypher, and can be chained together at low / mid percents. Offstage, be wary about your 2nd jump, because there are situations where a smart Sheik will hit you out of it with fair or a needle and force you to slowly cypher up.
+ Learn to predict the needles. They'll give you hell if you don't at least sedate their use. Powershielding is the obvious answer, but you can also spotdodge in some situations, or jump out of harm's way. Different situations yield different outcomes.
+ Learn to predict kill moves. Usmash has great kill potential, dsmash does a fair job against lighter characters, and she might get the occasional nair kill. All these moves are easy to weed out due to their awkward hitboxes (usmash is above the head, dsmash is closer to the body, and nair is at the thigh almost), but actively try to avoid these three moves at high percents. Up + B is sometimes debated as a good kill move, but it's gimmicky.
That's all I have.
Sheik's extremely peculiar. Relatively tall, but extremely swift and hard to get clean grabs off on. An unorthodox projectile that comes out quickly and does a number on any grenade / mine you have out. An extremely good ftilt for simple setups (ftilt -> fair, ftilt -> nair, ftilt -> utilt, etc.). Average range, with below average killing capacity due to said range.
Although I don't think Sheik should give Snake issues, the reality is she does. Especially with the needles. There's a few things Snake need to learn.
+ Much like the ditto, stay far away from grenades. They usually hurt you more than they help you, unless you REALLY know what you're doing. You're better off being nadeless and avoiding easy needle hits.
+ Learn Sheik's range at low percents. You can bet your backside she's going to at least attempt to catch you in a ftilt chain. If and when she does, don't just mash B. Calmly and cleanly SDI up. Many Snakes ignore that simple idea, and get caught in silly things like tornado, Kirby's fthrow chaingrab, and certain other multi-hit moves. Once you succeed in doing that, mash B and your jump button together. You'll either triple jump (a footstool's height but with no actual animation) or grenade out of it.
+ Fair's weaker damage and knockback output helps at times. I'm quite sure it'll hit you out of cypher, and can be chained together at low / mid percents. Offstage, be wary about your 2nd jump, because there are situations where a smart Sheik will hit you out of it with fair or a needle and force you to slowly cypher up.
+ Learn to predict the needles. They'll give you hell if you don't at least sedate their use. Powershielding is the obvious answer, but you can also spotdodge in some situations, or jump out of harm's way. Different situations yield different outcomes.
+ Learn to predict kill moves. Usmash has great kill potential, dsmash does a fair job against lighter characters, and she might get the occasional nair kill. All these moves are easy to weed out due to their awkward hitboxes (usmash is above the head, dsmash is closer to the body, and nair is at the thigh almost), but actively try to avoid these three moves at high percents. Up + B is sometimes debated as a good kill move, but it's gimmicky.
That's all I have.
6Mizu
Smash Champion
Listen to Underload, because I don't no to much about sheik....because I fight a shiek that likes to spam.
Tech-Nelium the Shark
Smash Ace
With sheik be careful when landing even if they are a good way away. I believe that sheik has the second most useful Dacus behind us. It slides almost as far as ours and it hits hard. I'm not sure if she air releases us but I don't think so which is good because she won't get a air release to dacus kill on us but as in all matches try not to get grabbed. d-throw can lead to a fair, nair or uair which builds on damage. And thats all i will contribute to this. I'll be back for marth
Berserker.
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Okay I think the Shiek MU stays 60:40
Next discussion LINK!
Next discussion LINK!
$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$
Smash Lord
Link is the better camper w/ his 3 projectiles, his zair will annoy Snake, and he get edgeguarded easily. He don't have any good cps against Snake except Norfair. Norfair and the neutral stages is his best benefit to fight beat Snake, mostly Final Destination.
Yumewomiteru
Smash Master
sheik snake is def not 60-40, its at best 55-45.
Berserker.
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@Yume: Hmmm....
@Gerald: They camp each other equally. Boomerang and arrows are easy to PS. His bombs are the troublesome ones
@Gerald: They camp each other equally. Boomerang and arrows are easy to PS. His bombs are the troublesome ones
6Mizu
Smash Champion
Yume is right Snake v Shiek is 55:45 (Snake's favor). I've a Shiek, a whole buch of timez.
And Link v Snake is 60:40 - 55:45 (Snake's favor). They both camp each other equally.
Bizkit047
Smash Lord
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Snake Vs Link has to be 60:40 easily. Link doesn't really out camp Snake that well, and up close, Snake destroys Link. I see Snake mains trying to say it's "a pretty close matchup" when in reality, once you learn it, it's not at all. Link's Zair is less annoying than TL/Samus'.
I believe Sheik is 60:40 (Snake) too, not 55:45. If you're doing the matchup right, Snake should live until almost 200% or more every stock while Sheik dies at 110% or less. Get caught in an ftilt lock? Nade out of it immediately and you both take damage (helps you more). Sheik is really good at juggling Snake in the air, but pivot nading ends that pretty easily. Sheik's Dacus isn't much of a threat, you should see it coming from a mile away if Sheik is halfway across the stage.
I believe Sheik is 60:40 (Snake) too, not 55:45. If you're doing the matchup right, Snake should live until almost 200% or more every stock while Sheik dies at 110% or less. Get caught in an ftilt lock? Nade out of it immediately and you both take damage (helps you more). Sheik is really good at juggling Snake in the air, but pivot nading ends that pretty easily. Sheik's Dacus isn't much of a threat, you should see it coming from a mile away if Sheik is halfway across the stage.
professor mgw
Smash Champion
I personally (in a way) disagree with the snake vs sheik.
For snake vs sheik yeah it would be 60:40 55:45 at best. But what idiot would go all sheik against snake? If a GOOD sheik switched up from sheik & zelda well enough, i think this match would either be 50:50 or 45:55 S&Z's favor. BOTH characters will **** snake once he's off the ground. Sheik with her f-tilt lock, rapid jab, u-tilt, and D-smash will likely get snake to high enough % to where all they would have to do is get snake of the stage and turn into zelda. Once snake is off the stage from appx. 130%-and up, zelda should kill him. Snake is to obvious and dont have much choices? Pull out a nade if zelda goes for up-smash? DEAD. Sheik already % ***** you to like 190. B-air? Up smash, U-tilt, move to the side and D-smash. Side dodge when close to the ground? Idiot.... B-reversal? probably your best option next to pulling out a nade and letting it explode u both. But even then, the chance us you escaping zelda's wrath when we aren't on the ground are very slim.
50:50 if both sheik & zelda are used properly. It's still even because snake won't die FAST, but both sheik and zelda are light.
For snake vs sheik yeah it would be 60:40 55:45 at best. But what idiot would go all sheik against snake? If a GOOD sheik switched up from sheik & zelda well enough, i think this match would either be 50:50 or 45:55 S&Z's favor. BOTH characters will **** snake once he's off the ground. Sheik with her f-tilt lock, rapid jab, u-tilt, and D-smash will likely get snake to high enough % to where all they would have to do is get snake of the stage and turn into zelda. Once snake is off the stage from appx. 130%-and up, zelda should kill him. Snake is to obvious and dont have much choices? Pull out a nade if zelda goes for up-smash? DEAD. Sheik already % ***** you to like 190. B-air? Up smash, U-tilt, move to the side and D-smash. Side dodge when close to the ground? Idiot.... B-reversal? probably your best option next to pulling out a nade and letting it explode u both. But even then, the chance us you escaping zelda's wrath when we aren't on the ground are very slim.
50:50 if both sheik & zelda are used properly. It's still even because snake won't die FAST, but both sheik and zelda are light.
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Whoa son. Way wrong. This match up is easily 60-40 in Snakes favor. He can eliminate all of Sheik's choices. He has the advantage in this one. His camping is superior to both Zelda and Sheik. He out ranges, Out kills, out survives, and out camps both Zelda and Sheik. I play against GOOD Sheiks and Zeldas. The match is clearly in our favor.I personally (in a way) disagree with the snake vs sheik.
For snake vs sheik yeah it would be 60:40 55:45 at best. But what idiot would go all sheik against snake? If a GOOD sheik switched up from sheik & zelda well enough, i think this match would either be 50:50 or 45:55 S&Z's favor. BOTH characters will **** snake once he's off the ground. Sheik with her f-tilt lock, rapid jab, u-tilt, and D-smash will likely get snake to high enough % to where all they would have to do is get snake of the stage and turn into zelda. Once snake is off the stage from appx. 130%-and up, zelda should kill him. Snake is to obvious and dont have much choices? Pull out a nade if zelda goes for up-smash? DEAD. Sheik already % ***** you to like 190. B-air? Up smash, U-tilt, move to the side and D-smash. Side dodge when close to the ground? Idiot.... B-reversal? probably your best option next to pulling out a nade and letting it explode u both. But even then, the chance us you escaping zelda's wrath when we aren't on the ground are very slim.
50:50 if both sheik & zelda are used properly. It's still even because snake won't die FAST, but both sheik and zelda are light.
Sheik-Snake is 60-40 Snake's advantage
Zelda-Snake is like 70-30 Snake or worse lol.
I rarely ever switch to Zelda for kills in this matchup because it's generally not a good idea as Sheik's KO options will actually connect every once in a while and are much safer.
Zelda-Snake is like 70-30 Snake or worse lol.
I rarely ever switch to Zelda for kills in this matchup because it's generally not a good idea as Sheik's KO options will actually connect every once in a while and are much safer.
gallax
Smash Hero
hahaha. lemme go get a vid of <3 vs snake and ill show you why this MU is 55:45 in favor of snake vs sheik.
EDIT: unfortunately i couldnt find any. lol. ill ask him if he has any and to upload them. ive played agaisnt light and all the time against <3(less than three). i can vouch that if sheik plays the MU right snake will have a hard time beating sheik.
first off, sheik's bair will auto-cross over which means the sheik will always land behind snake with no lag. having a fast character like that behind you is bad bad bad for snake. dont spotdodge for you will get grabbed b/c sheik will wait for it. if you get jabbed it doesnt matter if you shield because they can either contiue the jab or cancel it into a grab. but beware, the jab>grab may not be just a jab>grab. as snake i know that i can spotdodge the grab after getting jabbed. what i cant spotdodge is a jab>run past snake pivot grab(which is super quick but will grab you after you spotdodge). so you are just left up to reflex at this point and how much you know the MU.
and you may argue that you shouldnt get hit by the bair. well heres whats gonna get you hit by the bair: sheik run to the other side of the stage and charges her neddles and stays there chucking them at you. this forces you to come after her. if you jump>pull a nade and land with it the neddles will blow you up and cost you minimum 13% damage. so you come after her. now you get into somewhat of range and now you are left with a few choices; tilts/jab/force a shield grab/you shield/do nothing. now a smart sheik will be hard to grab. an even smarter sheik will force you to shield with a needle and run at you. she jumps. now sheik can do an aerial attack or not. smart sheiks will either bait a tilt wait for you to drop your shield and bair you. if sheik hits you with her leg it will pull her behind you. now you are stuck. if you decided to sheik her aerial(which will happen sometimes) she will again be behind you. you are stuck.
now lets talk about her jabs. she can jab lock(used very loosely the word lock) i recommend every snake learn how to sdi cuz you should NEVER get hit my more than 4 jabs(jabjab>cancel>jabjab is what i mean). sdi out asap and get to the ground. but watch because sheik is fast and can run and grab you b4 you know it. be prepared to jab or grab(cuz the sheik may run up and shield).
now her ftilt. you cant spotdodge more than 2 ftilts, like ever. learn the timing of her ftilts and you can sometimes get a jab in between them. if you cant get that pull a nade and both explode. but i ahte that cuz that means a faster character has the potential to get underneath me and juggle. if you do get hit by a ftilt its pretty much guaranteed that you are going to get 30% damage, minimum. sometimes you die cuz you just cant get back to the stage. her ftilt is really what punishes the most. get behind snake and ftilt and you are in a win situation. snake will either spotdodge eventually, drop his shield and try to attack and fail, or roll away. if he rolls behind sheik hes screwed cuz her ftilt is easy to turn. if he rolls away he will get grabbed. sheiks pivot will take care of any spotdodges, if he even has time to spotdodge.
now i know that im a little biased since i play <3 and light who are arguably in the top 5 sheiks category if not top 3, but that doesnt mean that sheik doesnt have the tools to win. cuz she does. but snake does have the advantage. he is heavy and hard to kill. her best kill moves will be dacus, uair, and dsmash. easy to avoid until you are at high percent cuz than pretty much anything kills. but you shouldnt die ever b4 150%. she shouldnt live past 150%. also because we have utilt, c4s, proximities, ftilts, dtilt, nair, bair, uair, and dair we pretty much have a whole arsenal to kill her. thats why we have the advantage. also because if we grab her you can pretty much assume the sheik will get right up and dsmash or roll away or get up attack. all punishable.
EDIT: unfortunately i couldnt find any. lol. ill ask him if he has any and to upload them. ive played agaisnt light and all the time against <3(less than three). i can vouch that if sheik plays the MU right snake will have a hard time beating sheik.
first off, sheik's bair will auto-cross over which means the sheik will always land behind snake with no lag. having a fast character like that behind you is bad bad bad for snake. dont spotdodge for you will get grabbed b/c sheik will wait for it. if you get jabbed it doesnt matter if you shield because they can either contiue the jab or cancel it into a grab. but beware, the jab>grab may not be just a jab>grab. as snake i know that i can spotdodge the grab after getting jabbed. what i cant spotdodge is a jab>run past snake pivot grab(which is super quick but will grab you after you spotdodge). so you are just left up to reflex at this point and how much you know the MU.
and you may argue that you shouldnt get hit by the bair. well heres whats gonna get you hit by the bair: sheik run to the other side of the stage and charges her neddles and stays there chucking them at you. this forces you to come after her. if you jump>pull a nade and land with it the neddles will blow you up and cost you minimum 13% damage. so you come after her. now you get into somewhat of range and now you are left with a few choices; tilts/jab/force a shield grab/you shield/do nothing. now a smart sheik will be hard to grab. an even smarter sheik will force you to shield with a needle and run at you. she jumps. now sheik can do an aerial attack or not. smart sheiks will either bait a tilt wait for you to drop your shield and bair you. if sheik hits you with her leg it will pull her behind you. now you are stuck. if you decided to sheik her aerial(which will happen sometimes) she will again be behind you. you are stuck.
now lets talk about her jabs. she can jab lock(used very loosely the word lock) i recommend every snake learn how to sdi cuz you should NEVER get hit my more than 4 jabs(jabjab>cancel>jabjab is what i mean). sdi out asap and get to the ground. but watch because sheik is fast and can run and grab you b4 you know it. be prepared to jab or grab(cuz the sheik may run up and shield).
now her ftilt. you cant spotdodge more than 2 ftilts, like ever. learn the timing of her ftilts and you can sometimes get a jab in between them. if you cant get that pull a nade and both explode. but i ahte that cuz that means a faster character has the potential to get underneath me and juggle. if you do get hit by a ftilt its pretty much guaranteed that you are going to get 30% damage, minimum. sometimes you die cuz you just cant get back to the stage. her ftilt is really what punishes the most. get behind snake and ftilt and you are in a win situation. snake will either spotdodge eventually, drop his shield and try to attack and fail, or roll away. if he rolls behind sheik hes screwed cuz her ftilt is easy to turn. if he rolls away he will get grabbed. sheiks pivot will take care of any spotdodges, if he even has time to spotdodge.
now i know that im a little biased since i play <3 and light who are arguably in the top 5 sheiks category if not top 3, but that doesnt mean that sheik doesnt have the tools to win. cuz she does. but snake does have the advantage. he is heavy and hard to kill. her best kill moves will be dacus, uair, and dsmash. easy to avoid until you are at high percent cuz than pretty much anything kills. but you shouldnt die ever b4 150%. she shouldnt live past 150%. also because we have utilt, c4s, proximities, ftilts, dtilt, nair, bair, uair, and dair we pretty much have a whole arsenal to kill her. thats why we have the advantage. also because if we grab her you can pretty much assume the sheik will get right up and dsmash or roll away or get up attack. all punishable.
gallax
Smash Hero
u guys dont happen to live in FL do you? im talking to you sinz and mars...
professor mgw
Smash Champion
Now add zelda to all of this n this should be 50:50
Purple
Hi guys!
I'm sorry i didn't read much of this thread, but i disagree with practically this entire MU thread (to an extent, i'm going off the first page). I feel that snake is being underrated by snake mains and that these MU's are in higher favor for snake than everyone's thinking. He wouldn't be S tier if his matches were all 50:50's and 55:45's
Sheik has very few options against a good snake. Sheik's f-tilt can be countered by snake's so there's no reason unless you space wrong that sheik should be f-tilt locking you. IF you're spacing like that, it will take forever for you to die from sheik without an f-tilt lock. Sheik's pin damage is just a jump + plant c4 away from being dodged, which just puts you at an advantage. Snake is bad in the air, and sheik is great in it, but has no real tools to put you in the air either (once again if played correctly). Making her air game obsolete. Plus backing away and b-airing or n-airing depending on your position will outspace everything except her bair.
(bolding is just my opinion)
Zelda has slow projectiles that doesn't effect snake's ability to camp if he wanted to. Zelda's recovery is even more trash and has more lag than Sheik's gimping is easier, even for snake, recovering on the stage gives ample opportunity for more damage racking, putting you back off the stage, or just killing them with an u-tilt (f-smash if you're faster enough and they're in distance)
It's no way near 50-50.
Remember, these matchups are played if both players are playing their character to the optimal ability. Not in your skill level, with all the options that snake has to stay grounded, i can see sheik's stocks going away extremely quickly, along with zelda's i call it 65:35snake's favor for sheik, 60:40 snake's favor for them together, 55:45 snake's favor zelda (just because she CAN potentially kill.)
Sheik has very few options against a good snake. Sheik's f-tilt can be countered by snake's so there's no reason unless you space wrong that sheik should be f-tilt locking you. IF you're spacing like that, it will take forever for you to die from sheik without an f-tilt lock. Sheik's pin damage is just a jump + plant c4 away from being dodged, which just puts you at an advantage. Snake is bad in the air, and sheik is great in it, but has no real tools to put you in the air either (once again if played correctly). Making her air game obsolete. Plus backing away and b-airing or n-airing depending on your position will outspace everything except her bair.
(bolding is just my opinion)
Zelda has slow projectiles that doesn't effect snake's ability to camp if he wanted to. Zelda's recovery is even more trash and has more lag than Sheik's gimping is easier, even for snake, recovering on the stage gives ample opportunity for more damage racking, putting you back off the stage, or just killing them with an u-tilt (f-smash if you're faster enough and they're in distance)
It's no way near 50-50.
Remember, these matchups are played if both players are playing their character to the optimal ability. Not in your skill level, with all the options that snake has to stay grounded, i can see sheik's stocks going away extremely quickly, along with zelda's i call it 65:35snake's favor for sheik, 60:40 snake's favor for them together, 55:45 snake's favor zelda (just because she CAN potentially kill.)
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If Sheik is above us she is already in a very bad position. We can continue a juggle with an uptilt, Uair, or a nair. The only ways for Sheik to avoid this is to air dodge. Which gets her grabbed.
The correct answer is that Snake will be SDIing away and will ftilt you in the face.
If having a fast character was a horrible thing for us, wouldn't the sonic match up be 60/40 Sonics favor? No, of course not. It doesn't matter how fast they are. We can out range them, force their approach, and kill them far earlier than they can kill us.
This is 100% theory play. Also, you are assuming you are playing against an inexperienced Snake.
Snake can avoid all of the needles by just nade hopping into another jump. Then we pull another nade and shield when we land. 0 frames of lag. We have the superior camping.
Already talked about SDI.
Did you know that Snake can Jab lock some of the cast too?
Now her ftilt, eh? Why is the Snake player in the Ftilt's range? A snake player is more than willing to nade drop to give a light character 13% and give us 20-30%. You die at extremely early percentages.
Also, please use English when you are doing a rebuttal.
You keep on mentioning Sheik's pivot. Yet, you haven't mentioned Snake's pivot grab once. Which is arguably one of the best in the game.(next to Olimar, Marth, and Yoshi(the only thing they have going for them)) It has ridiculous range. If we saw you approaching, why wouldn't we play smart and just pivot grab you?
Yeah we do have the advantage. But, not by a small margin. Sheik has the tools and have to play absolutely perfect to even try to make this an even match up. But, nobody can play perfect.
This post has A LOT of errors in it. Snake beats both of these characters but not really because of anything you mentioned lol.
Gallax, no we don't live in FL.
.decoy
Smash Ace
sinz, who can snake jab locK?