Marth's weaknesses

[Emblem Lord]

Why are you challenging his moves?

You should know the exact spacing for when you outrange him. You shouldn't be challenging anything. You should be poking.

Cuz..that's what it is..a poke.

And if Snake's u-tilt or MK's smashes are hitting you when you attempt a d-tilt then your spacing is just way off.

 

[Omega_Star]

I'm finding that one of Marth's more hindering weaknesses is his decreased relative range. Dedede outranges him. ROB outranges him. Ike outranges him (though it's not so much of a problem there since Ike is so slow). Meta Knight can outrange him. Snake has comparable range. Though I do realize how silly it sounds for me to be listing this as a weakness when he still outranges most of the cast (so in the grand scheme of things, it's still actually a strength I suppose), that's probably been one of the biggest adjustments I've had to make, since he basically outranged everyone in Melee, and it does make some fights which are difficult to begin with even more so, giving further advantages to some characters that already have the projectile advantage.

 

[meepxzero]

if tippered range is way off than i dunno what is o_O. Im just stating the fact how useless dtilt is against snake and mk in most situations. Its probably cuz of the fact that its kill moves vs a poking move that their moves beat dtilt. But that still shows that dtilt makes ur hit box stick out and vunerable to getting hit plus it dont help it moves u forward when you use the move.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Having decreased range isn't a weakness as this is a different game. That would classify as a nerf.

And, yeah it's already established that d-tilt isn't as good vs MK. Did you miss the thread where I was pissed off when it was confirmed that MK's d-tilt outranges Marth's?

Also d-tilt will clank with Snake's f-tilt when spaced at maxed distance and they collide at roughly the same time.

Also a character is not known as a hitbox. That would be a hurtbox.

And d-tilt only moves you forward when you use it more then once in succession.


So...are you spamming d-tilt in one spot then Meep?

Also Marth's d-tilt outranges MK's f-smash and d-smash. I have no idea why you would imply otherwise. You are going to confuse the **** out of less knowledgeable Marth players with that kind of talk.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

how many frames on Marth's jumping animation? You have to remember to account for that when you talk about Fair's speed.

 

[meepxzero]

i do spam dtilt some of the time -_-, but i find it hard to believe dtilting is viable against either of the two.

 

[VietGeek]

Also Marth's d-tilt outranges MK's f-smash and d-smash. I have no idea why you would imply otherwise. You are going to confuse the **** out of less knowledgeable Marth players with that kind of talk.

Indeed. Meep, you've done a disservice to me. I demand compensation.

Also...

Dtilt out ranges MK's Fsmash? When I tried it, it seemed the two had equal range from your tip to his tip of the blade. As far as I know, only Marth's Fsmash out ranges MK's Fsmash.

Feel free to correct me, but I'm pretty sure I took some time to test this out myself.

 

[Emblem Lord]

MK's F-smash has about half the range of his d-tilt. Marth's d-tilt only has slightly less range then his own f-smash.

So yeah...Marth's d-tilt has more range then MK's f-smash.

 

[Shaya]

Wait; how much more range does Marth's fmash have compared to his other moves?

His ftilt is longer?
His dtilt is slightly shorter?

Marth's fsmash outranges MK's dsmash and fsmash?
What about the dtilt?

When did what I thought I knew suddenly change?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth's f-smash only has a tiny bit more range then his tilts. His tilts are equal in range. Marth's tilts and F-smash outrange MK's smashes. Only Marth's f-smash and Shieldbreaker will outrange MK's d-tilt.

So MK's d-tilt range is between Marth's f-smash range and his tilt range.

 

[Demonstormkill]

I've also had some bad experiences with dtilt poke on snake. Just like meep said, he just ftilts. If the attacks clank, Snake follows with the second hit of his ftilt. How can marth deal with this? I've dtilted again to cancel his second hit... then the problem is that you have moved forward with 2 dtilts in a row and you're kind of in an uncomfortable spot.... maybe follow with a jab instead if dtilt clanks? In any case this seems tough to do consistently and snake's ftilt hurts.

Not sure if this is exactly what meep was getting at, but does anyone have some good advice to handle it?

 

[Emblem Lord]

WTF are you doing, trying to d-tilt again after the move clanks?

GTFO OF THERE NOW!!!!

Snake's f-tilt = 4 frames

Marth's d-tilt = 7 frames

Understand?

Also when two moves clank they are cancelled out so Snake isn't throwing out the second hit of his f-tilt after the first. He is just doing another f-tilt again after the first one was cancelled out.

What part of...don't challenge Snake's moves is so hard to follow.

DON'T CHALLENGE HIS MOVES!!!

If you clank...then you need to reset your spacing NOW!!!!

 

[Demonstormkill]

Ok so basically, dtilt can put you in a particularly dangerous position when used against snake. By reset your spacing are you suggesting I roll away? What if there were an explosive behind me? Would it be safe to try to shield and then fair defensively and reset?

 

[alchfilosofer]

there have been countless times ive challenged snakes ftilt with dtilt and instantly died or even his utilt with dtilt and mks dsmash/fsmash. I dunno marth feels more vunerable now when hes dtilting against people who can challenge him in range.

Try some dolphin slash (but remember to don't use it if it's out of range).

 

[meepxzero]

in other words dtilt is useless against snake =D although forward b ***** the crap out of him especially if he air dodges back on stage....

 

[Emblem Lord]

I still like d-tilt. I don't sit there and just spam it though. >_>

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

snakes tend to be advancing forward shielding often either walking or dashing. this also usually results in a power shielded first attack. that's why dtilt is typically not a good option against snake even if at TIPPER range it does slightly outrange him


and i mean slightly

 

[Emblem Lord]

If it gets PSed Marth could roll or up b to stuff/avoid Snake's retaliation.

But you would have to react instantly to the PS.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

exactly, that's why, as meep was saying, it's generally not a good choice for the match up


the key vs snake is safe, because if you are unsafe you're taking 20+ damage instantly

 

[Emblem Lord]

Forward B is still far less safe though and fair is risky unless you are already at the right spacing. But you can't actually approach with a SH fair because you will catch a knee to the face.

All 3 moves have their place in the match is what I'm saying.

 

[meepxzero]

fair is fine cuz it comes out on frame 4 like snakes ftilt and the same reason with forward b. Marth really isnt bout outranging your opponent anymore. Hes all bout abusing his quickest attacks weaving in and out. Marths range just makes it easier to land attacks, but his true strength comes from overwhelming the opponent with his quickest moves forward b and fair.

 

[boss8]

marth has no weakness.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You have to take into account that Marth is airborne on frame 6 and while frame 4 is the earliest frame that fair hits, if you're trying to hit someone directly in front of him it won't hit on that frame.

It will most likely hit on frame 5 or 6 since the blade travels in an arc.

 

[hippiedude92]

I have a question, not sure if it was said in here or maybe in one of other threads or whatever. How come counter is less used? Or why isn't it good? I mean its a combo breaker and such. I might have misread so mind my nubiness >.> Also I find upssmash pretty good against a snake whose on the air.

 

[jinofcoolnes]

I have a question, not sure if it was said in here or maybe in one of other threads or whatever. How come counter is less used? Or why isn't it good? I mean its a combo breaker and such. I might have misread so mind my nubiness >.> Also I find upssmash pretty good against a snake whose on the air.

It leaves you too open for the most part


it still should be used more(since it can kill and gimp)but sometimes its better to stay safe.

 

[Linguini]

marths weaknesses make him boring, lol i quit marth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you are playing this game to be entertained or excited you are playing the wrong game my good sir.

 

[∫unk]

Sometimes... I question why I play Marth at all, when there's another swordsmen with better approach, better recover, safer kill moves... T-T

 

[grandmaster192]

If you are playing this game to be entertained or excited you are playing the wrong game my good sir.

Marth is one of the most stylish and ownage characters when played with skill. I don't get what the point in playing Marth is if don't want to do cool ****. If winning is the only thing that matters, just pick the best character.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So then...why not just play MK?

lol.

No is making you play an inferior character.

haha.

This post is directed at Junk.

 

[∫unk]

Cause he's more fun... ><

Isn't that the only reason to play a non-top tier character?

 

[hippiedude92]

Cause he's more fun... ><

Isn't that the only reason to play a non-top tier character?

Lol fo sho Marth is hella fun. You know how amusing to spam like a nub0rz Fair and dancingblade? Although that doesn't make a good Marth anyhow. He's flashy imo lolz

 

[Shaya]

Sometimes... I question why I play Marth at all, when there's another swordsmen with better approach, better recover, safer kill moves... T-T

Are you talking about Roy?

Yeah I wish Roy was in brawl too.

 

[VietGeek]

Are you talking about Roy?

Yeah I wish Roy was in brawl too.

lol of course, because having some of the worst aerials in the game mean a lot to having better approaches.

Plus Roy's Fsmash comes out a frame later than Marth's IIRC.

Yeah, I know you're pulling our leg. You meant Young Link MIRITE?

<_<

 

[frozensilver]

Well,
-Marth isnt meant to have good throws. He's not like Ness or Zelda.
-I guess there isnt too much potential for a projectile, but it makes him fun to play as.
-Yeah, his recovery isnt great
-His kill moves are OK. Since he doesnt suffer from too much lag, its not that big of a problem.
-I dont use his dash grab too much, only if my opponent is sheilding. However, there is the F-Throw + F-Smash combo
-Yeah, his recovery is ok, but not great.

 

[∫unk]

Well,
-Marth isnt meant to have good throws. He's not like Ness or Zelda.
-I guess there isnt too much potential for a projectile, but it makes him fun to play as.
-Yeah, his recovery isnt great
-His kill moves are OK. Since he doesnt suffer from too much lag, its not that big of a problem.
-I dont use his dash grab too much, only if my opponent is sheilding. However, there is the F-Throw + F-Smash combo
-Yeah, his recovery is ok, but not great.

-Marth's throw in melee was ridiculously good not for it's power but for it's perfect set up to other moves. There's no real follow up to a Brawl Marth's throw other than at really low percentages.
- what?
- It's decent... You only SD if you're going on auto-pilot on recovery.
- He suffers a lot of lag after a kill move... try playing a good Metaknight.
- f-throw to f-smash only works on really low percentages... and doesn't even work on some characters.
- repeated?

 

[frozensilver]

-Marth's throw in melee was ridiculously good not for it's power but for it's perfect set up to other moves. There's no real follow up to a Brawl Marth's throw other than at really low percentages.
- what?
- It's decent... You only SD if you're going on auto-pilot on recovery.
- He suffers a lot of lag after a kill move... try playing a good Metaknight.
- f-throw to f-smash only works on really low percentages... and doesn't even work on some characters.
- repeated?

-I guess that's true
-ehh....nvm
-Decent, but nothing special
-I have before....but it wasnt really at a professional level. I guess he does suffer some lag... :|
-Just trying to bring up a point
-Oops.

 

[GPEternity]

marths smashes are definitely stupid slow. his fsmash is seriously tooooo slooowww. i can't powershield -> fsmash anything with half decent speed.

i think marth's biggest weakness, which is not necessarily a weakness, is simply that he has a steep learning curve. a good marth, even a decent marth, requires a lot of practice and perfection in spacing, reflex, fast finger training, precision of attacks, and careful recovery among mastering his best moves.

you might say that becoming a great player with any character requires the same dedication, but i would argue marth requires a fair bit more than most. it really doesn't take much to projectile spam and camp, but getting around said spam and camp is harder, which is what marth needs to do. because of marth's piss weak non-tipper smashes, his spacing issue is much great than most characters since as far as i know, DDD's dsmash will blast you the same way whether he hits you with his hand or the head of his hammer. further, marth is fast, but not so fast that you can do well with even ok reflexes. due to his lack of a spammable kill move and comparatively low reach now he must actively look for openings and take them at a dime, all the while avoiding his opponents kill-move-spammage (cough MK cough). marth is slow enough and light enough that he can't afford to make mistakes, where some characters can get away with them due to raw speed, or survive their mistakes due to weight. as such to play a good marth requires a perfectionist level that many characters do not depend on as much. I mean broken *** MK can mash buttons and still create combos and he great grabs, dash, and insane speed AND reach. for a marth to beat some of the higher tier characters, a significantly higher level of skill and devotion is required. well, of course you need to be better than someone to win, but what im saying is that the marth player needs to be a better by a larger margin.

its simply because marth really takes a lot of work and learning, or naturally raw talent, that makes him very anti-noob. while a lot of characters are rather noob friendly.

 

[Inui]

Nah I rarely use it at all... for that reason.

But it doesn't change the fact that it would have been incredibly useful as a cross up if it didn't suck so much.

EDIT: Point being in the game where b-airs are used more it sucks that Marth's cross up options are limited cause of his crappy b-air.

Marth's b-air is amazing wtf. It's his best aerial for actually killing. Jump back b-air is awesome for retreating and it's harder to punish than spamming f-airs.

 

[Emblem Lord]

His smashes are of varying speed.

F-smash has good speed hitting on frame 10 or 11.

D-smash is great hitting on frame 6.

U-Smash is the only one with poor speed hitting on frame 14 or 15 I think, but it might be later.

Also Marth is tied with Diddy as 9th fastest in the game. He is also tied with G&W as 12th in aerial speed.

He isn't slow.

Don't perpetuate false info.

But you are correct in saying that Marth requires true mastery.

Fine with me. Let the scrubs flock to MK.